[veefre]

Hi.

I'm at a point where I need to recommend to my employer which CAM software to shell out $$$ for. I'm working with a new 3 axis Haas mill, and we may eventually get a 4th axis for it. Right now I'm doing only 2d parts, but I need to get up to speed with 3d surfaces etc.

I've been using Surfcam lately, and have had training in it (albeit from 2005). It's working reasonably well for 2D stuff, but I haven't used it for 3D stuff for a few years now, and then not much anyway.

I've also had training (two semesters) in Mastercam, 2009 was the latest. At the time I landed a job where I had to use Gibbscam. I found GC to be fairly good at solids but a real PITA for simple drawing tasks. And it was the leader of the Update-a-week club. Anyway, taking a class in Mastercam at night while trying to absorb Gibbscam at work was a real head twister. So different. At the time I vastly preferred Mastercam.

Have also used the following, with brief opinions: Featurecam (too controlling), Geopath (a bit primitive), G-Zero (interesting approach but not very flexible), Esprit (mill work not its strong point).

Even used Bob Cad Cam for Solidworks for a short while. Not a big fan of that, either.

I've downloaded and tried out Fusion 360, and while it seems pretty adept at solids it's a steep learning curve, and does not seem very appropriate for doing simpler 2d parts. I've yet to be able to get it to spit out code for a simple 2D part, for example. Mostly I've just used to view and dimension solid or DXF files that Surfcam can't handle. The price is right: $300/yr, but I don't expect that bargain will last indefinitely.

So... it boils down to being between the latest Surfcam and the latest Mastercam, I suppose. Both are in the five digit level. Only need a single seat. I'd consider others but only if they don't have steep learning curves. As it is, Mastercam seems a bit more cryptic than Surfcam, but maybe it's just because I haven't used it for about five years.

Any thoughts?

[robert copeland]

go with mastercam

[awerby]

A very capable but much less expensive alternative would be VisualMill from Mecsoft. It comes in a series of versions with capabilities that increase with each level, so you don't have to pay for more than you're going to use, but if you need more advanced features you can upgrade to a higher version (by the time you're into five figures, you're into 5 axes). If you're already using Solidworks, there's a version that plugs into that program. Check it out, it's not hard to use. 2D and 3D functions are available in every version. Check my website for more information about it.

[veefre]

We're a small shop and don't have Solidworks, although I've trained in it.

Currently I'm evaluating Mastercam X9, Surfcam 2016, and probably Fusion 360 as well.

Just got through doing a 3D part with Surfcam. Haven't done that for a while, and it was interesting. Major problem is getting the software to recognize solid files correctly. Finally got a .dwg file to work, albeit with not enough layers and the mesh to interfere with dimensioning etc. But eventually got a workable program and made the parts.

Right now just got through wetting my feet again with Mastercam, making a relatively simple 2.5 axis part, albeit with chamfering and radiusing edges. Seems like Surfcam makes these functions more straight forward, although I think with some customization Mastercam can do it just as well. Some stuff I like better in Mastercam, such as the ability to set the part Z0 to so many thousanths below the stock touch off, and then have a face mill do a series of depth passes starting well above Z0 and then gradually coming down to a Z0 finish, so the rest of the tools are at the right point. Surfcam won't do that, as far as I can tell. But Mastercam has no problem with it.

Haven't yet spit out a program with Fusion 360. I find the interface to be awkward, but it does seem to be the best so far at interpreting solid files and drawings. Customers seem to have a penchant for sending crap and expecting us to make sense of it, LOL. The price is right on F360, I just think it will be steep learning curve.

[G59]

You should look into Featurecam by DelCam unless you have some reservations about them.
I know it works great with Inventor and SolidWorks solid models.
Of course a learning curve will still apply. But setting of Z zero is done as soon as you import the model and you can reverse Z if needed. Same with block/stock dimensions.
It's pretty straight forward.

[veefre]

You should look into Featurecam by DelCam unless you have some reservations about them.
I know it works great with Inventor and SolidWorks solid models.
Of course a learning curve will still apply. But setting of Z zero is done as soon as you import the model and you can reverse Z if needed. Same with block/stock dimensions.
It's pretty straight forward.

Like I said, I used Featurecam a few yeas ago and didn't like it. It seemed too controlling and inflexible.

[seijack]

PM Sent

[sirgreggins]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I use Autodesk Fusion 360 right now and I love it. Everything from simple parts with holes, pockets, contours, facing, etc. 3D toolpaths have also worked fine for me. It took some time but I'm making parts and that's what counts. I should have an opportunity to learn Mastercam soon and have a demo version to play with. It's a very capable piece of software but it's not intuitive IMO and a bit cumbersome. After I have some real experience with it I can do a true comparison. The fact that Fusion 360 is free for hobbyists and even businesses up to $100K revenue which is HUGE for me. Fusion 360 has 5th axis capabilities now and it's being worked on everyday. I won't tell you to go with one over the other. Thats a decision only you can make. For me, its fusion 360. But that could change after I get familiar with Mastercam. It's just much more cumbersome to start IMO.

[oldjohn]

And Mastercam gives you great support in the forum eMastercam.com

John

[Green0]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I use Autodesk Fusion 360 right now and I love it. Everything from simple parts with holes, pockets, contours, facing, etc. 3D toolpaths have also worked fine for me. It took some time but I'm making parts and that's what counts. I should have an opportunity to learn Mastercam soon and have a demo version to play with. It's a very capable piece of software but it's not intuitive IMO and a bit cumbersome. After I have some real experience with it I can do a true comparison. The fact that Fusion 360 is free for hobbyists and even businesses up to $100K revenue which is HUGE for me. Fusion 360 has 5th axis capabilities now and it's being worked on everyday. I won't tell you to go with one over the other. Thats a decision only you can make. For me, its fusion 360. But that could change after I get familiar with Mastercam. It's just much more cumbersome to start IMO.

I agree completely. Very cumbersome. It works but it makes me feel like I'm litterally not smart enough or good enough to use it properly or well. If you want to invest a lot of money in training, a lot of mental effort for weeks months and years, and to struggle with un-ending, horrible feelings of personal inadequacy as you get some quality work done, Mastercam has totally done that for me. I don't have experience with other programs to know what the golden star in CAM is, but I wish I knew what it was because I would love to use a program that let me feel comfortable with my life, and that I felt confident in.

Mastercam gives me the feeling that what CNC needs in the world is a solution to CAM, not a better or more capable machine. Capable machines are everywhere. Capable and well thought out CAM is difficult or impossible to find.

I did invest a week of my life in Topsolid and paid $2000 for training and was prepared to pay $38,000 for a better solution, but at the end of that, I felt that Topsolid had some serious advantages and more serious disadvantages to Mastercam and I had problems with installing (getting it to run in Windows), and with toolpathing (I was unable to get toolpath) on a simple Y axis part in Topsolid (I was, as far as I know, doing everything right, but it was not posting toolpath). Topsolid had awesome CAD compared to Mastercam, but I needed it to solve WCS issues, solid toolpathing issues, and to be better and easier to work with for toolpathing than mastercam and that didn't happen.

In mastercam the WCS is not something explained by mastercam. Many operations require 2 planes in a specific format and this is a source of many issues. The posts don't know what the machine can or can't do, so you have to constantly drive that with WCS input using a tool that I don't perfectly grasp. Stock relativity isn't automatic so that can produce code that isn't efficient or make you struggle with telling the software what you want done. On the multi-axis side you just have to be a straight up savant to drive toolpathing- and the program can do it but there might be 50-100 people in the USA who can actually drive it reliably, so the rest of the people are paying for it so they can do 2D dynamic milling. In multi-axis, a solid surface may have to be depicted using a surface mesh or something, in short it is the extra steps that mastercam needs for prep that are the hardest functions of mastercam that most limit its capabilities.

Mastercam is like a keep in memory game where someone wants you to memorize an entire set of encyclopedias. It makes you feel like there literally isn't enough space in your head to keep the information there.

I've seen Titan show one part that would have been totally impossible in Mastercam. I think they use Fusion 360 or the multiaxis version of that. That was a 3D part on a multiaxis lathe- AKA a 3D part wrapped around the C axis. Granted I don't know how people learn that product, or how easy that was to program, so it's kind of like an unknown.

Training for mastercam is a minimum of $1000 a day, and if you wanted to support a machine shop ( a typical shop with multiaxis mills, multiaxis lathes, and EDM machines), you would adequately be trained by 40-60 days of training. That's $40-60K and your time which is probably also valuable. So CAM might be the largest investment you make if you do it right which you may or may not even have time or money for. There is a point where you become terrified of spending thousands of dollars a week and not absorbing information. If you didn't grasp it you just paid for ZERO.

[veefre]

Update...

Mastercam is looking better than Surfcam to me at this point. I'm more familiar with Surfcam and so can make simple part programs quicker with it, but I can see that Mastercam is more powerful and configurable.

For example, I can make a nested array of parts with Mastercam to maximize material usage (yield). With Surfcam, I can make a linear array but without any capability to nest the parts (as far as I can tell). In a recent test, it means getting 14 parts out of the same size piece of material with Mastercam, vs. just 12 parts with Surfcam.

Also many other little things that I can tweak in Mastercam, and I figure I'm only scratching the surface.

What I don't like about these packages these days is how they nickle and dime. The entry level versions are basically just 2D and for 3D it's a hefty 50% markup with Mcam, less of a markup with Scam but the final prices are nearly the same anyway.

Been playing with Fusion 360 a bit more, was actually able to generate some Gcode with it today, but it still seems to me it's not well tailored for a production shop. Might be good for a home shop, though.

[cadcam]

PS, Surfcam will not be around much longer. as the company that owns them will be weeding them out. but if you buy they will give you a seat of one of there other software's.

As for Mastercam you will get 3D surfacing with the Mill level but yes a big jump to Mill 3d were you get option of multi surface selection and more surfacing options.
There is a lot pf power in the X9 that a lot still have not figured out. Also you around the corner from the new release of 2017 around the end of June.

If you get stuck or have questions please ask.

[dharmic]

Had a look at Alibre or PTC Creo?

Both are feature based modelling packages which I found to be pretty intuitive to get up and running with, after an intro course. I don't know about Alibre's CAM. Creo's NC Machining plugin, though, I've found to be excellent. A lot of clever optimisation and the ability to tailor your post, set up tool libraries, tweak tool paths or just generate a fairly optimal toolpath off a drawing which - and this is nice - automatically regenerates on the fly if you make any changes to the source model. Last time I checked, about $4500 for the CAD part (PTC Creo Parametric 3.0), another $5k for the 3 axis CAM and another $10k or so for the 4+5 axis CAM if you ever go there.

[veefre]

Thanks for everyone's input.

After evaluating the latest offerings from Mastercam, Surfcam, and Fusion360, I decided to go with Mastercam Mill 3D today and we placed the order. While I don't agree that Surfcam is going away any time soon, it does appear that it does not have the level of development that Mastercam has, nor does it have the same degree of power and flexibility. I like Surfcam, it fits like an old glove, but I feel Mastercam is a better fit for our needs going forward. Fusion360 is still a bit too raw and its top-down approach does not lend itself, IMHO, to kicking out code quickly. It seems to be much more weighted towards the design end.

I decided to jump to the higher level of Mastercam because while the Mill level does some 3d, it's single surface only, and we've had some parts to make with multiple intersecting surfaces that could be tricky to pull off with a single surface approach.

[bthomas7408]

CAMWorks all the way! I've used BobCad, SurfCam, and MasterCam and nothing compares to CAMWorks for me.

[cadcam]

I am happy for your decsion on software. and my thoughts about Surfcam were not mine but from the company that owns the software. there booth was right behind ours at the last IMTS. I was given this info from them one of the folks at the booth..
Your reasoning for going from the Mill to Mill 3D makes good sense.

Remember we are here as you dive in and need answers. Also did the dealer show you the new version coming 2017?

[veefre]

I have heard conflicting stories about the future of Surfcam. The latest I heard is that the current owner, Vero, intends to keep it on as the "Traditional" product, while offering various alternatives such as Edgecam. Mastercam seems like a standard in these parts, and I've had two semesters of training in it as well. I go to more training next week as part of the purchase price.

Initially I was going to go with the Mill version, but then a combination of needing to do multi 3D surfaces as well as a month-long 20% discount offer made me decide to take advantage of the offer right away rather than having to shell up the full 100% for the upgrade later.

The dealer mentioned a free upgrade to 2017 when it's released later this year. I'll be concentrating on getting up to speed on the X9 product for the time being, but it will be interesting to see what the next rev offers.

I am happy for your decsion on software. and my thoughts about Surfcam were not mine but from the company that owns the software. there booth was right behind ours at the last IMTS. I was given this info from them one of the folks at the booth..
Your reasoning for going from the Mill to Mill 3D makes good sense.

Remember we are here as you dive in and need answers. Also did the dealer show you the new version coming 2017?

[greggv]

I use Mastercam for everything except 4 th axis work, and for that I use OneCNC which does 4th axis so well, and easily, with a great visualation too! I suppose it's pretty good for all the flat work, it has some good toolpaths that are easy to configure, I'm just so used to MCam I tend to stick with it. I also have a VF3 Haas with a 4th axis. If you're ever going to do 4th axis work, look at OneCNC. I always talk to Patrick at OneCNC west. The best support of any cam package I've ever seen!

[cbr_speedster]

Have you guys tried Esprit? I've programmed just about every type of machine with Esprit and it works awesome for 4th axis, HMC's, Mill turn lathes, Swiss, EDM, etc. I think it depends on what you work with and get used too.

[Green0]

Have you guys tried Esprit? I've programmed just about every type of machine with Esprit and it works awesome for 4th axis, HMC's, Mill turn lathes, Swiss, EDM, etc. I think it depends on what you work with and get used too.

I have not tried Esprit, but I've heard great things. The most professional turning shop I know uses Esprit, they said the learning curve was a little intense, but that the software allows them to program triple turret machines with quality and speed. Consensus was Esprit was rock solid for mill turn.

Compare that to mastercam, and mastercam Mill-Turn part handling is not posting good code for me- it doesn't really have a grasp of the Doosan TT1800SY personality (air blow sequences and the various unlock and cancel codes that have to be posted to make the machine code run), the chucks and holders aren't correct so machine kinematics are totally defective and disabled, the part eject is not simulated, and the wait codes are cumbersome and I don't use those either. They do token handling of some stuff you will almost always want to be handled the same. If I have to turn on coolant of various kinds on every operation, I'll just do that in CIMCO. I would much rather have default strategies in place. My machine has bed wash, high pressure on two sides, and high pressure through spindle on the sub- that's a lot of coolant alone to dick around with. Mill-turn doesn't support load monitoring so that's a lot of created CIMCO work.

I would ask Esprit if they can take your code and produce part handling customization with that. Part handling and part ejects seem to be the largest shortcoming of various softwares, and you will never post code straight to a machine without the software being able to easily handle part handling and ejects.