[slowtwitch]

Well after researching for months and looking for a cnc machine for my project, I've made up my mind and I will most likely go with the NM-200.

First, a little background. I've developed a component for a certain aftermarket car market. I had a machine shop make the first batch of parts, to see how things will progress. This was an ordeal in itself. Lets just say, I had approached at least five shops to have the parts made, before I found someone to do them and even there I took a bath.

Anyway, the component is selling and my inventory is shrinking. I made a promise never to deal with another shop again, hence, me looking for a CNC mill.

The parts to be milled are not difficult, as I use to make them on my old Emco round column mill, cranking the handles. The biggest part is seven inches by about two inches and .375" thick.

I've looked at all the competitors and I have also looked for the so called "real CNC machines". The Tormach, Mikinmech, IH and Syil are good machines, but, just didn't fit my size requirement for table , hp and such.

As for the real CNC machines. I didn't want to be bothered by having to set up a 3 phase system in the garage. They also have proprietary control systems, which if they go bad.... with the PC control, i have a chance at fixing the problem myself. Another issue was the size of the motors, these things could draw 40-60 amps, something my old wiring won't take Lastly, I just didn't want to take a chance at buying used and I can't afford to buy a new Haas mini mill.

I spoke with Robert at Novakon and I'm currently waiting on the final pricing. The only option I'm going with is thier new FDS feedback system.

Hopefully, if everthing goes well, i can be making parts in a few

pete

[newton009]

DON'T DO IT!!!

I know from experience... trust me you will be sorry!

I'm in the very, very, very slow process of trying to get my mill going. The iron from the factory is shi$%t. It has been 7 months dealing with Novakon.... and still no resolution.

I understand others are wondering, but my series 2 mill is still not operational. I will be posting my findings!

[newton009]

Just a couple images of my findings.

More explanations to follow.

My biggest concern are the castings.... in that (NOTHING IS CLEANED AFTER THE CASTING PROCESS... AT ALL!! ) Every part part of the machine is loaded with casting sand, binder, and slag. I estimate over 5 pounds of debris that will eventually recirculate to your ball screws, bearings, and ways.

[neilw20]

Syil is good value for money, and a your chances of success are very good. Various size machines, depending on your needs.
Once all the connections, and crimped are checked, it is all pretty good.
Initially Syil had a big learning curve, but they are working well towards the top now.
Mechanically quite good, and electronics gets better all the time.
They try very hard with after sales problems. The language hitch occasionally, to be expected.

[slowtwitch]

Just a couple images of my findings.

More explanations to follow.

My biggest concern are the castings.... in that (NOTHING IS CLEANED AFTER THE CASTING PROCESS... AT ALL!! ) Every part part of the machine is loaded with casting sand, binder, and slag. I estimate over 5 pounds of debris that will eventually recirculate to your ball screws, bearings, and ways.

Wow!!! that is an eye opener. That certainly would be cause for concern.

thanks
pete

[ihavenofish]

Wow!!! that is an eye opener. That certainly would be cause for concern.

thanks
pete

no such problems on the one in my shop. its a really nice machine.

[newton009]

no such problems on the one in my shop. its a really nice machine.

Sure... show me the underside of your mill base! Show me photos of the Z axis motor mount ball screw, and angular contact bearing mount not surrounded with casting debris!

Because of my original findings... conference calls with John and Khai... I now own two useless NM 200 milling machines. The second machine base etc. was a Novakon surplus machine, because of a warranty replacement on a damaged controller during delivery. It was sent (1/2 my shipping cost) a complete mill assembly minus the spindle and axis motors. (incidentally I was promised the spindle and motors in exchange for my troubles, but mysteriously disappeared before shipping)

The replacement machine iron has nearly all the same problems I found on the first machine. The only difference was the z axis liner bearing ways were not scratched to hell. The iron from the factory was just as poor with all the same problems.

More to come.

Regards

[mcphill]

Sounds like you have been dealing with some crappy shops...

If you would like a reference for one I use and trust fully, send me a PM or e-mail.

[kvom]

Is the motor driver problem only on the v2 NM-200? Do I need something done for my V1?

[ihavenofish]

Is the motor driver problem only on the v2 NM-200? Do I need something done for my V1?

the v1 has an induction motor an inverter, so it should be fine.

basically, if the spindle doesnt sound like its slowing down in every cut, its fine.

[Hirudin]

I'm a novice but I'm having a terrible time with my machine as well. I got it just before the start of 2011 and I have yet to cut anything significant with it. A large part of the delay has been my own procrastination but a significant reason my machine is sitting in my garage dormant is because it doesn't work properly. My Z axis is bent or twisted or something. One way or another it doesn't move up and down in a straight line. There is about 10 thousandths of backlash in the X axis and around 3 in the Y. The one shot oiling system is very inconsistent and I'm pretty sure one of the ways on the Y isn't getting oiled. Of the six holes in the base only four of them (the outside corners) line up.

Shipping was delayed then delayed again. I still haven't received my rotary table (I don't recall when I ordered it but my invoice date is 9/30/10).

... Keep in mind that I am a novice and I have run the machine for fewer than ~10 hours. Who knows what a person who knows what they're doing would find during normal use.

I've been trying to get tech support to help me with my Z axis for a few weeks now. So far the "support" for this issue has not been helpful.

I also got support when my Y axis was sticking intermittently. That support was actually better than I expected and I was happy with it - so far the sticking problem seems to be gone.

I haven't written-off the machine yet, but I'm not far from it. There are several things I like about the machine too, but all that is moot if I cannot use it to cut accurately.

[dbrija]

I'm a novice but I'm having a terrible time with my machine as well. I got it just before the start of 2011 and I have yet to cut anything significant with it. A large part of the delay has been my own procrastination but a significant reason my machine is sitting in my garage dormant is because it doesn't work properly. My Z axis is bent or twisted or something. One way or another it doesn't move up and down in a straight line. There is about 10 thousandths of backlash in the X axis and around 3 in the Y. The one shot oiling system is very inconsistent and I'm pretty sure one of the ways on the Y isn't getting oiled. Of the six holes in the base only four of them (the outside corners) line up.

Shipping was delayed then delayed again. I still haven't received my rotary table (I don't recall when I ordered it but my invoice date is 9/30/10).

... Keep in mind that I am a novice and I have run the machine for fewer than ~10 hours. Who knows what a person who knows what they're doing would find during normal use.

I've been trying to get tech support to help me with my Z axis for a few weeks now. So far the "support" for this issue has not been helpful.

I also got support when my Y axis was sticking intermittently. That support was actually better than I expected and I was happy with it - so far the sticking problem seems to be gone.

I haven't written-off the machine yet, but I'm not far from it. There are several things I like about the machine too, but all that is moot if I cannot use it to cut accurately.

You have a 12 month warranty. Don't write it off.

[yooper]

I have been reading a few responses and I can tell you from experiences because I have a NM200 and now also a NM145 mill. I have been running my NM200 for about 2 years and have made many parts and have paid for my machine many times over. I have started using my NM145 and seems to run properly too. Despite some ajustments with the GIBS and general periodic maintenance, my machines have performed very well. Like any machine, understanding it is the key to success with it.

I have read some comments on this forum so far and most comments seem to have little merrit to the performance of the mill but seem more to be complaint sessions because of their lack of practical experience. (yes, I mean practical) I have seen some comments passed on from users with no first hand experiences to make any judgement call.

All the machines in this class are basically the same, and any Tormach, Syil, or Novakon machine can be disassembled and picked to death. My choice to buy my Novakon machines was based on capability and price. I didn't have to tear mine apart to get it producing accurate production parts. The mill design is simple and rugged. Why would anyone rip it appart in the first place?

I believe I have a very good understanding of these mills and would have no problem passing on my experience and knowledge. Don't believe everything you hear...it has been my experience that people that complain like what I have read are not problem solvers, just problems.

If anyone wants to resolve problems, let me know. I will be glad to help.

[newton009]

I would formally like to invite a Novakon, and third party representative to view my findings.

Come and see what I have found.

Regards

[mcphill]

You make some good points, and it appears you got "good" machines. That said, if there is loose casting sand with direct exposure to the bearings on some machines, they will not be long for this world. It is basic and inexpensive requirement to rid raw castings of sand. This point should not be of any debate.

If there are users experiencing poor craftsmanship, and then having little to no support in dealing with the issues, that should weigh heavily on other potential customers' decision making process. Why deal with a company with "known issues" that are not being dealt with when there are other options?

It doesn't matter if "some" people get fantastic customer service and speedy responses if other are "left out in the cold".

[yooper]

Good point.

I have thought about the issue with the debris in the coolant and looking closer at my machine (or any other for that matter) and the potential for sand destroying the ball screws is pretty remote. If this were such a problem the metal chips would be a bigger problem to these surfaces from the coolant than the sand. Who knows, maybe I could chisel some slag and sand from mine, but if I have to hammer it off, I doubt it will ever be a problem. I am too busy making parts. I really doubt there is 5 pounds of sand scraped off like the customer said. Sounds like a fishing story to me.

I have talked to Novakon several times over the past and was able to get reasonable responses. I also noticed lately they added a new Engineer to the staff. Sounds like they are responding to the new inquiries and needs. Pound for pound, I got results when I worked with them. I know they respond all hours of the night and are very dedicated to this industry.

As far as the support that I have seen, Novakon does well.

[Sepult]

Good point.

I have thought about the issue with the debris in the coolant and looking closer at my machine (or any other for that matter) and the potential for sand destroying the ball screws is pretty remote. If this were such a problem the metal chips would be a bigger problem to these surfaces from the coolant than the sand. Who knows, maybe I could chisel some slag and sand from mine, but if I have to hammer it off, I doubt it will ever be a problem. I am too busy making parts. I really doubt there is 5 pounds of sand scraped off like the customer said. Sounds like a fishing story to me.

I have talked to Novakon several times over the past and was able to get reasonable responses. I also noticed lately they added a new Engineer to the staff. Sounds like they are responding to the new inquiries and needs. Pound for pound, I got results when I worked with them. I know they respond all hours of the night and are very dedicated to this industry.

As far as the support that I have seen, Novakon does well.

You're claiming sand won't harm bearings or linear motion parts, and yet you claim to have a "very good understanding" of these machines. I don't think the former supports the latter.

As for the subject of one of your veiled attacks, viz. newton009, he wasn't the only one who found debris. JoeBeans teardown thread mentions sand, paper and other debris stuck on the ballscrews. Unfortunately the pictures are gone now so we can't see how bad, but it's mentioned several times. So it wasn't just one small thing.

You imply you have little if any slag or sand in your machine, and you even questioned the intelligence of tearing the mill down, presumably due to it being a non-issue in your mind. But how can you know what's there if you haven't looked? You're propping up your beliefs on false evidence.

Logically no one who is genuinely interested in learning about these mills should have a problem with people pointing out the good and bad experiences they have had with them. Unfortunately people who are invested in an outcome are easy prey for logic fallacies, particularly wishful thinking. Thus this thread has devolved into emotional, dogmatic attacks on those with different experiences. ad hominem. People are no longer interested in the facts but instead want to prop up their own beliefs. Which is too bad, as it's effectively pointless to continue now since this is no longer a discussion.

And this is not the first time this has happened in this forum. Thus, those wo have had negative experiences are going to be even less likely to post (there were already several hurdles to overcome - their own wishful thinking with wanting to believe they made a good choice, as well as the desire not to upset the company on which they were reliant for service) as they know they're likely to get "flamed" for it. As a result, you've effectively created a society of similar thinking people which propogates the problem through argumentum ad populum.

[mcphill]

So well stated. Do you mind if I plagiarise some of this post for another "discussion" I am currently engaged in?

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bobcad...24_dongle.html

[ihavenofish]

You're claiming sand won't harm bearings or linear motion parts, and yet you claim to have a "very good understanding" of these machines. I don't think the former supports the latter.

As for the subject of one of your veiled attacks, viz. newton009, he wasn't the only one who found debris. JoeBeans teardown thread mentions sand, paper and other debris stuck on the ballscrews. Unfortunately the pictures are gone now so we can't see how bad, but it's mentioned several times. So it wasn't just one small thing.

You imply you have little if any slag or sand in your machine, and you even questioned the intelligence of tearing the mill down, presumably due to it being a non-issue in your mind. But how can you know what's there if you haven't looked? You're propping up your beliefs on false evidence.

Logically no one who is genuinely interested in learning about these mills should have a problem with people pointing out the good and bad experiences they have had with them. Unfortunately people who are invested in an outcome are easy prey for logic fallacies, particularly wishful thinking. Thus this thread has devolved into emotional, dogmatic attacks on those with different experiences. ad hominem. People are no longer interested in the facts but instead want to prop up their own beliefs. Which is too bad, as it's effectively pointless to continue now since this is no longer a discussion.

And this is not the first time this has happened in this forum. Thus, those wo have had negative experiences are going to be even less likely to post (there were already several hurdles to overcome - their own wishful thinking with wanting to believe they made a good choice, as well as the desire not to upset the company on which they were reliant for service) as they know they're likely to get "flamed" for it. As a result, you've effectively created a society of similar thinking people which propogates the problem through argumentum ad populum.

he went over the line i think yeah. but i think his point was that people make mountains out of mole hills and then refuse to climb them.

from everything posted, newton is complaining rightly about a machine with sand and debris in and around critical areas. thats important sure, but unless hes got alot more to say and show, it does seem in mole hill territory.

my only objection is the vague way hes portraing the issue as it confuses people thinking of buying. it also prevents other users from actually trying to help solve the issues. i like to see cnczone as a place to get help with problems, not just unconstructively rant about them.

[izzy88]

You're claiming sand won't harm bearings or linear motion parts, and yet you claim to have a "very good understanding" of these machines. I don't think the former supports the latter.

As for the subject of one of your veiled attacks, viz. newton009, he wasn't the only one who found debris. JoeBeans teardown thread mentions sand, paper and other debris stuck on the ballscrews. Unfortunately the pictures are gone now so we can't see how bad, but it's mentioned several times. So it wasn't just one small thing.

You imply you have little if any slag or sand in your machine, and you even questioned the intelligence of tearing the mill down, presumably due to it being a non-issue in your mind. But how can you know what's there if you haven't looked? You're propping up your beliefs on false evidence.

Logically no one who is genuinely interested in learning about these mills should have a problem with people pointing out the good and bad experiences they have had with them. Unfortunately people who are invested in an outcome are easy prey for logic fallacies, particularly wishful thinking. Thus this thread has devolved into emotional, dogmatic attacks on those with different experiences. ad hominem. People are no longer interested in the facts but instead want to prop up their own beliefs. Which is too bad, as it's effectively pointless to continue now since this is no longer a discussion.

And this is not the first time this has happened in this forum. Thus, those wo have had negative experiences are going to be even less likely to post (there were already several hurdles to overcome - their own wishful thinking with wanting to believe they made a good choice, as well as the desire not to upset the company on which they were reliant for service) as they know they're likely to get "flamed" for it. As a result, you've effectively created a society of similar thinking people which propogates the problem through argumentum ad populum.

I have been reading these forums in my continued research of my next mill purchase. newton009's findings definitely bring up concerns with these machines but I wonder if machines from Tormach, Syil and Smithy all have similar issues, I would tend to say yes to a certain degree. I have yet to see a detailed tear down of these other mills like the one Joebean did. They are after all made in China, meant as an affordable means of producing parts so I don't expect them to be on the same level as a $50000 Haas.

My problem with posts like yours is they serve only to bash a company that is obviously committed to growing in this industry. Yes, there are issues as there are with all machines but of the 4 posts you have made to date, 3 have been some sort of negative post against Novakon.

I understand your decision in not buying one of their machines, that's your choice but move on to being a positive contributor to these forums. Do you simply like to rant?

I've had dealings with Chinese factories as well and I know the challenges it presents. What we expect in terms of quality workmanship is not always theirs. I learned this the hard way starting up my own business years back and often what you get is vastly different from what you signed up for.

I'm still undecided about my purchase, but it will be between Novakon and Tormach. I'm hoping Novakon continues to get better as they do seem to be making a concerted effort in that regard.