[ruawake]

Wonder what anyone thinks of the Mikini.......3hp?

[Runner4404spd]

i think the work envelope is kind of limited for what you get. the IH has full 30" of travel in the x and up to 13 in the Y. i can fit 3 6" vises on my ih mill and can get to each of them with plenty of room. i can't really tell if the complete mikini is running on mach 3 or their stand alone controller?

[EvanVH]

No dove tail ways ????? No ways period???


If I read the web site correctly they are using linear guides. I would worry about the longevity, rigidity and accuracy. (when you are pushing the machine hard)




Evan

[ruawake]

That is a good point, about the ways.
ruawake

[deon]

Hi

"longevity, rigidity and accuracy"?????? Bigger mills like Haas etc. have them.

What seems to be the problem , if you stick to a the work machine scale relation then I cant see the problem.

It's not a good idea to break down a other manuf. just because you have a IH machine.

Just my two cents.

[oltimer]

deon
nobody is cutting down anything. just an opinion on an IH forum.
oltimer

[EvanVH]

Hi

"longevity, rigidity and accuracy"?????? Bigger mills like Haas etc. have them.

What seems to be the problem , if you stick to a the work machine scale relation then I cant see the problem.

It's not a good idea to break down a other manuf. just because you have a IH machine.

Just my two cents.

Hey deon

After doing some research I was off base with that comment. Sorry Can you separate the mill from the stand. The reason that I ask is the stand is cast (?) and the rep from Mikini said "the stand and mill don't separate". There web site said the mill weighs 2000 lbs with the stand. If the stand is cast it must be pretty heavy. I would like to know how much the mill weights with out the stand.



Evan

[Kipper]

Hehe, Production machinery is always the stuff to copy for home use....Dovetails and gibs are dead!

[Cruiser]

There are different types of linear rail systems out there and I have some on my mill to support the gear box. If mine wear then its just a matter of putting in new bearing blocks and keep on going. Many of the big Iron machines run circulating needle bearing packs that carry load and run on ground iron. I ran a big vertical turning center and we had to realign the machine quite often, replaced the bearing packs once and kept the machine true for many years. We would on some jobs do tolerance work of .0006" total or +-.0006 more often and stay in print. If everything is designed solid and maintained they last a very long time, The VTN10 was bout 20 yrs old and still running very solid.
Now for a quick question to you guys.
Why are we discussing the Mikini on the IH Thread ?
I saw where they made a splash here and then vanished (rightfully so !) but why don't they have their own thread ? Then you can compare over there and let them give the sales pitch.

[oltimer]

Cruiser
it's always the same crickets that can't pass up an opportunity to bad mouth ih anytime they can, even though most of them have never even seen the ih in action or in person. the highest form of flattery.
oltimer

[Kipper]

Now for a quick question to you guys.
Why are we discussing the Mikini on the IH Thread ?

Try reading the title of the thread...it gives a clue......Which you seem to be missing.

[oltimer]

Kipper
didn't miss a thing. just seems like you are treading on our current all around knowledge guy, philburs territory. hope he's not offended. cruiser is correct in saying this is the ih forum and the conversations should be about ih mills and such. hope you don't mind the humor.
oltimer

[Kipper]

Kipper
didn't miss a thing. just seems like you are treading on our current all around knowledge guy, philburs territory. hope he's not offended. cruiser is correct in saying this is the ih forum and the conversations should be about ih mills and such. hope you don't mind the humor.
oltimer

Don't mind at all

[philbur]

I think the thread has evolved into an "are linear ways a more durable/better proposition than Vee ways on a CNC mill" As the IH has Vee ways I would have thought that this would at least be mildly interesting to owners and potential owners of IH mills. From a general interest point of view I also would like to know the answer, however Evans points clearly do not hold water. I for one was hoping that somebody with the knowledge would jump in and lead us all out of the darkness. However it seems that some feel more comfortable in the dark and would prefer to keep others there for the company.

Phil

Kipper
didn't miss a thing. just seems like you are treading on our current all around knowledge guy, philburs territory. hope he's not offended. cruiser is correct in saying this is the ih forum and the conversations should be about ih mills and such. hope you don't mind the humor.
oltimer

[Cruiser]

"are linear ways a more durable/better proposition than Vee ways on a CNC mill"
IF ! This is the question then I'd have to simply say "NO" ! That being said as I believe it is a typo and meant "linear rails" as when it gets right down to it "V" or "Dove" slides are "linear ways".
Now what is best ?
Box column slide ways of course ! They are massive columns of cast iron with trued slide ways to guide and support roller bearing packs, which carry vast loads with minimal friction !
Next would be some sort of rail system if it was appropriate for the size of the machine, being it also would carry a load at a greatly reduced degree of friction, but at a higher cost than simply cutting Dove guides and using Gib's to control slop, or errant motion.
The simplicity of the Dove or V arrangement is obvious and there is a reason it is still being in use after 200 yrs. Most of it can be cast into the machine, and after machining it is ready to go. If it is designed well, then you have a solid and highly usable machine albeit plenty of lubrication applied.
As many of you know, I have the IH mill and am happy with it, for the most part ! It has its strength's and it has it weakness's. But, If all the weakness's were to be designed out of it then it would cost much more !
If by following a few rules of machining, the weaknesses do not show up in the work piece ! I mean the spring pass or finish pass !
the weakness's are primarily a factor of leverages applied within the system and that cast Iron being as mighty as it is will still flex, I have learned this to be termed by "plasticity" as it will flex under load and return to neutral. As with any machine design then the cure is to add more Cast Iron, And GENE has done exactly that !
The NEW version of the IH mill is much more rigid than the previous version which I have. And, I can still make highly accurate parts on my machine.
I have pushed my machine way beyond its design capacity to see what would happen. I then fixed the biggest weakness that I saw and easiest to fix. Gene did the same thing to the new version but at a much lower cost ! By adding cast iron inside the column where the inner, thinnest web of the dove can flex ! Remember the plasticity ?
Machining is a balancing act to put it simply ! The cutting of materials, with a tool, while taking into consideration all applied forces and tool / machine wear and power / rigidity applied, and don't forget the holding of the workpiece as it is also very important to not overcome ANY of the "Weak Links" within !
The people who purchase these machines are not Industrial Moguls, but simple people with a need, and a budget ! Many, have little machining experience, some have none ! Others like myself have many years of machining.
The first two questions a prospective purchaser posts are 1) can I afford it ? 2) will it do what I want ? and the questions very from there.
It all boils down to One major Item and that is IH's machine fills a void and has one hell of a lot of bang for the buck ! It is a work horse, not a toy ! It will last for many years, as it is, and not need a lot of upgrading to do its intended job.
Now back to the question of "Which is better ? " "V" or "slide rail" and the answer will have to be "WHY" ?

[EvanVH]

My point was that you previously said:

"All I have to do on the IH mill is adjust the gibbs"

Now you have to scrape, so which is it.

Phil

Which is it. You really don't know? Does it really matter to you? Or is this a game.

You adjust the gibbs for minor wear and you scrape when the accuracy of the machine has become unacceptable.

. From a general interest point of view I also would like to know the answer, however Evans points clearly do not hold water.
Phil

The answer to what? You won't find a definitive answer here its all an opinion.



Originally Posted by EvanVH
"I have seen cnc machines that are worn out in the middle of there travel because the majority of work is done in the middle of the travel. Liner guilds do wear out in the same pattern as do vee ways. Physics don't you no.

If you know how to scrape and tune the problem is goes away.

I am not against the Mikini or liner guilds they all have there place. I am sure that liner guild are the norm. It is far easier and cheaper to set up a flat surface for liner guilds, then casting vee ways and tuning them."


Kipper Kipper Kipper

"Don't step in the bull**** on your way out lmao"

No I don't know how to scrape. Never said I did. So there is no Bull Sh*t here! If you are trying to get a point across that is a childish way of doing it.


Kipper and Phil
There are plenty of places that you two can stir the pot and have a great time doing it. All I am trying to do is learn and helping others. Yes I have been wrong but who has not.



Evan

[oltimer]

evan
only crickets are perfect in every way. the sooner you learn this the better off you will be. how do i know this? they chirp your faults and then chirp their wisdom in every post.
oltimer

[EvanVH]

evan
only crickets are perfect in every way. the sooner you learn this the better off you will be. how do i know this? they chirp your faults and then chirp their wisdom in every post.
oltimer

Thanks for the words of wisdom. It is very funny that you mention crickets and the sound they make. I am taking care of a friends toad for the summer who eats crickets. So around my house crickets sound like crunch crunch crunch.

Thanks again oltimer



Evan

[philbur]

Cruiser you started so well and ended so badly.

For someone who has made up their mind what best suits their need then "WHY" (do I care) is a reasonable answer (for them), however it does little to answer what is the best for others. It is a catchy phrase but as an answer to the general question of what is best (for a particular need) it adds nothing.

I've just spent an hour or so reading through the relevant sections of "Precision Machine Design" and to sum up in a few words:

Linear sliding element bearing (Vee ways) - Can't be beat for rigidity but are limited on speed, acceleration and positional accuracy due to high fiction and the large difference between static and dynamic friction.

Linear rolling element bearing (linear guides) – Are relatively low on rigidity but can't be beat for fast and precise movements.

So it is horses for courses. However it seems that the IH might benefit from Turcite ways and a one-shot oiler for the ways. The Mikini would probably benefit from a higher spindle speed. There is no argument about which is better, in the same way that there is no point in discussing whether a knife is better than a fork, they have different functions.

Phil


PS: I aplogise for my sloppy use of the term "linear way". I should have learned by now not to leave myself so open when venturing onto hallowed ground. The correct terminology (after I looked it up) is of course linear rolling element bearing and linear sliding element bearing.

"
Now back to the question of "Which is better ? " "V" or "slide rail" and the answer will have to be "WHY" ?

[Kipper]

I don't remember ever saying anything regarding the quality of the IH mill.....must have been my fault for trying to help out with an adaptor plate. I notice runner never came back with his drawing!

I do remember saying that I'd rather have a "linear rolling element guide" equipped machine....as opposed to a dovetail equipped machine.

The title does say IH versus Mikini Mechatronics 1610L so maybe a comparison of opinions was being asked for regarding those 2 machines.

Sorry if I hurt the fanboys feelings

crick crick.....do crickets chirp or crick,crick..?