[Smiffy6885]

Hi CNCzone'

This is my first post within this forum, so please do excuse me if this question comes up a lot, I have had a quick look but didn't find what I'm looking for.

First off, I know there are more than a few of you out there that think the eBay availible Chinese K40's are pretty much trash, but iv found quite a few blogs where with some tinkering they can become quite useful hobby tools.

I'm looking at these eBay listings as examples:

This is parallel port controlled, but works with the newly drivers
40W CO2 LASER ENGRAVING CUTTING THIRD GENERATION MODEL MACHINE ENGRAVER o6 | eBay

This is USB controlled, but uses LaserDRW and WinsealXP. Both of which I cant find much on, but I'm under the impression that they are USB compatible newly driver clones.
220V USB CO2 40W 300mm/s Laser Engraving Cutting Machine Engraver 300×200mm | eBay

I havn't bothered with any that use moshiDRAW as iv read that it pretty much kills the limited usability of the machine.

My question is, has anyone got any experience of these drivers/machines? Specifically the LaserDRAW WinsealXP drivers. But any other experience from owners/users would be much appreciated.

As for tinkering with things like this, I'm more than happy modifying stuff. I would infact concider making my own from 'common' parts, but at £500-550 it seems uneconomical. As it stands I'd be adding watter chilling unit with flow indicator/alarm, an air assist system, and maybe a few other minor adaptations.

I should also say that I use many titles, including AutoCAD, inkspace and gimp to generate designs, so the software would be purely used as a driver.

Thanks for reading this wall of text, and thanks for any help, it will be much appreciated.

[herby08]

Hey there
first you are damn right this machines are for hobbyist and beginner and can be modified to pretty much professional standart on the size.
you need to re-do most of the mechanical parts in regards to square it off and put a few more bearings in because they only have one in each idler.
next you need to replace the electronic parts because the original electronic and software is not reliable.
i have done quite a few convertion of this machines and even guided a few guys thru the process to do it themself.
I mean the upgrade sure cost quite a bit of money if I make the arrangements it would be
1 laser power supply $ 205
2 stepperdriver $ 40 each $ 80
1 DSP controller $ 450
1 24V main power supply $ 30
shiping and handling around $ 120
then you would have a system what has the newest software and this are the ones where the machines cost around $ 3000 to 5000
I have attached a few picture what is done with this machines after conversion.
if you are interested just send me a PM to [email protected]
greetings
walt

[Smiffy6885]

Thanks Herby,

The brake down was very interesting. I'm not sure I'd do all at once, I'll most likely space things out as much as it is possible to do. Iv been looking at dsp controllers, but to be honest I'd like to give the native drivers a go first, just to see if I can get anything constructive out of it.

Iv also found a Chinese page regarding the laserDRW and WinsealXP drivers:

Google Translate

It looks like the presumption that these new titles are USB newly clones.

My main question now is:

Out of the 3 types of driven machines, which would you recommend?

Newly comparable (parallel)
Moshi (USB)
LaserDRW & WinsealXP (USB)

I like the idea of USB, not only for the obvious reasons but I also thought that a hub could be fitted in the electronic compartment so the dongle could be internally fitted. But then again the parallel could be converted to USB and could provide Mach communication.

The other thing ive noticed on the page posted above is that all the boards have crystals wired onto the board, so in therory the speed of cutting could be slowed. Iv seen this done on YouTube, but could it be made to cut faster? Also, on the board marked WinsealXP, there are two crystals, one for cutting? One for engraving? Finally the dates on the boards show that the WinsealXP/laserDRW were printed in 2010/11 so are older than the more upto date Mushi boards.

Again, any recommendations would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Steve.

[herby08]

Hi steve
in any case I recommend the moshi version if this has a moshiboard Version 4.2 with USB because it works with pretty much all types of files like from corewldraw and autocad.
the moshidraw software and system is a pain in the neck but you could learn to do at least some simple stuff but have to expect that it not allways works like it should and eventually has break downs
greetings
walt

Thanks Herby,

The brake down was very interesting. I'm not sure I'd do all at once, I'll most likely space things out as much as it is possible to do. Iv been looking at dsp controllers, but to be honest I'd like to give the native drivers a go first, just to see if I can get anything constructive out of it.

Iv also found a Chinese page regarding the laserDRW and WinsealXP drivers:

Google Translate

It looks like the presumption that these new titles are USB newly clones.

My main question now is:

Out of the 3 types of driven machines, which would you recommend?

Newly comparable (parallel)
Moshi (USB)
LaserDRW & WinsealXP (USB)

I like the idea of USB, not only for the obvious reasons but I also thought that a hub could be fitted in the electronic compartment so the dongle could be internally fitted. But then again the parallel could be converted to USB and could provide Mach communication.

The other thing ive noticed on the page posted above is that all the boards have crystals wired onto the board, so in therory the speed of cutting could be slowed. Iv seen this done on YouTube, but could it be made to cut faster? Also, on the board marked WinsealXP, there are two crystals, one for cutting? One for engraving? Finally the dates on the boards show that the WinsealXP/laserDRW were printed in 2010/11 so are older than the more upto date Mushi boards.

Again, any recommendations would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Steve.

[Smiffy6885]

Thanks again Walt for the speedy response.

You'll have to forgive me if I still go after a little more advice, it's not that I don't trust yours, it's just iv read up on moshi and have found many people complaining about all it's faults (of which there appears to be many). Ive also read that it doesn't plot imported vectors or other graphics well. Something about poor line recognition.

I'm looking at using the machine to create scale architectural models, so I want to be sure it can translate to some degree of accuracy, although I'm not expecting anything near perfection.

So if there is anyone else out there who has had experience with these titles and can offer their opinion on what direction I should go, I would be very thankful.

Steve

[herby08]

Hi Steve
I got the feeling you want a mercedes fro the price of a fiat.
the more you ask the more different opinion you would get.
now if you want to do " scaled architectural models" and make sure that everytime you turn the machine on it comes out exactly as the last time then you need the more expensive models or convert one right a way.
when you read about moshidraw what combines both newly draw and newly seal it is because the other what you have mentioned just came on the marked and there is not practical experience with this this way nobody can complaine in the different forums and groups.
just my opinion from the practical stand point.
greetings
walt

Thanks again Walt for the speedy response.

You'll have to forgive me if I still go after a little more advice, it's not that I don't trust yours, it's just iv read up on moshi and have found many people complaining about all it's faults (of which there appears to be many). Ive also read that it doesn't plot imported vectors or other graphics well. Something about poor line recognition.

I'm looking at using the machine to create scale architectural models, so I want to be sure it can translate to some degree of accuracy, although I'm not expecting anything near perfection.

So if there is anyone else out there who has had experience with these titles and can offer their opinion on what direction I should go, I would be very thankful.

Steve

[Rodney Gold]

I'm not sure why you would want to buy a pigs ear and try convert it to a silk purse? You can buy a DECENT machine for the amount you gonna spend on those rubbish ones and not have to do any work.

[Smiffy6885]

Hi Rodney, I'm not planning on turning it into a silk purse as such. Just some minor changes on a cheap machine to make it more usable. But I'm open to suggestions for alternative machines. But considering that one of these eBay 'pigs ears' is only £515ish to start, (and yes I may eventually change it with a new board etc, but I like to tinker with stuff like this, so that's not a big problem for me) I can't find anything in the same price bracket.

I take it you have had one?

You say I can get a decent machine for the same money? Where from? I'm in the UK and would be very interested in a better quality sub £800 machine.

Thanks

[Rodney Gold]

Those 40w cheapys are absolute rubbish - not worth spending bucks on to make em "better". For around $1700-2200 (probably less than you will spend on the "improved" cheapy after you changed everything) you can actually buy a GOOD machine with excellent software etc that will work properly out the box. Speak to G Weike or Shenui laser about their smaller "good" machines.
I don't have one of the cheapy's , but know ppl who do and was at the laser factories in China in may last year and saw many work (well barely work and being made. I am not sure why the good laser mnfgrs even offer them for sale , all they are good for is to hurt their reputation.

[atv2]

They do it to offer a solution to meet a price point. They should actually offer a 40w desktop machine with the better electronics and software at a slightly higher price point, I bet that well sell better, and would probably result in follow-up sales when the users outgrow the smaller machine.

[Rodney Gold]

I agree - have spoken to the manufacturers to develop a "western" package , all top of the line electonics and mechanicals , use a GOOD user interface/program , include spares and take more care at mnfgring stage , BUT it's impossible to get through to them on that level cos they are PARANOID about pricing..they think that they will lose sales at a higher price - but it aint so......
Offering those 40w junkers are like Mercedes including Yugo's in their model range...

[herby08]

the probleme is that every manufacturer uses parts from others especially in the electronic and software and they wana make money too with big amount
the result is that any better electronic what is then with a DSP controller and seperat stepper driver and PWM laser powersupply cost then at least 4x as much as the cheapo.
I have good connections to manufacturer overthere and I know that a machine with the same mechanical parts but the beter electronic cosdt even this much higher price, but I can buy the best parts for not even 25% of the price. dont forgett all the shipping and handling fees plus import taxes what sometimes comes up to evn double the price .
that means if you can get a cheapo with the feature what I have described from a domestic source you dont have the hassle and the parts for conversion you can some buy at a domestic ebay. this makes the only part what needs to be shiped the DSP what is nothing usually it runs around $50 and the most countrys dont charge taxe if it is send right.
greetings
walt

They do it to offer a solution to meet a price point. They should actually offer a 40w desktop machine with the better electronics and software at a slightly higher price point, I bet that well sell better, and would probably result in follow-up sales when the users outgrow the smaller machine.

[Smiffy6885]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the advice. As I said before, in not looking to go out of my way to modify anything and I know these machines will always have their limitations.

The problem for me is that I'm not prepared to spend that kind of many at the moment, although I suppose I could be persuaded.

The other option open to be is to scratch build a quality machine, but if it's not really going to save money in the end, I'd prefer to just spend a little more.

Rodney - iv taken look though the manufactures sites that you have recommended and shenhui do seem to offer some interesting items, I'd just be concerned that they would be of the same build and part quality but for a higher price.

Back to topic tho, which of the bad bunch would people recommend?

[Smiffy6885]

Hi,

Just thought I'd say. Bought a k40 with Moshi draw, it's not perfect but it is workable. In fact as long as you do all your design work in a program like CAD, GIMP or Ink scape, it all works out pretty well.

Now, as I said these machines and software are not perfect, infant the machine is a little sub par in the quality department, the software is full of bugs and counter intuitive. But with a little practice and technical knowledge they can be very useful tools.

As to the price, £500 delivered is (at least to my mind) not just cheaper than something like an Epilogue but offers newbies/hobbyists an affordable machine for your workshop/studio.

Back to the software though. I'm running moshi 2012 on Vista and occasionally when opening, it does load up the mandarin version which then will only shutdown though task manager. But on the most part it has been quite stable, just a bit buggy and a little counter intuitive, not helped by the 'iffy' English translation. But it can when used properly, produce some cool stuff.

Hope this helps anyone looking at purchasing one of these machines.

[fishface]

Hi Smiffy
I too am considering buying a £500 machine very similar to yours, with a view to swapping the electronics for a simple stepper motor control board and controlling it all using LinuxCNC via the parallel port.
Do you think that the mechanics/laser are worth the money? Is it sufficiently accurate if you repeat the same cut on the same piece of work? Will it easily cut 5mm of acrylic or plywood?

[RossMosh]

FYI, anodized aluminum engraves on a laser without any additional coatings. It marks white.

[Gnyff]

Thanks for your comment:

FYI, anodized aluminum engraves on a laser without any additional coatings. It marks white.

I guess it burns away the color pigment? Or is it the entire anodization? I worry it might end up in a not so nice "self-anodized" finish....
I've also read it's more of "whiteish" than white (?) - at least with the cheap lasers (most of the Chinese actually deny their lasers can work with anodized aluminum - and usual a "no" from that area of the world should be taken very seriously ;-)
How is your experience?

In any case I'm fairly confident the white will be very low contrast on a clear anodized aluminum surface? So for those I think the thermark might be a valid option... (Even though we actually does not need high contrast - but the viewer should not be in doubt if the surface is smudged or intentionally marked ;-)

[RossMosh]

People have lasered anodized aluminum for years and years. Google it to see what it looks like. Any laser can mark colored anodized aluminum. What you're left with is a whitish mark that isn't quite raw aluminum but isn't quite anodized. I don't exactly know how to explain it but you're taking off layers but not all the layers. It marks fast with low wattage and the appearance is good.

As for marking clear anodized black, well, it doesn't work all that well. Cermark/Thermark has an option but it's slow and the results can be hit or miss. I would think a YAG would be a much better choice for this kind of work. Marking aluminum takes a serious amount of heat and standard CO2 lasers typically aren't the best machines for this. A lot of people also do electro etching on aluminum.

[Gnyff]

Hmm - it's indeed a jungle. About a year ago I also came to the conclusion that a YAG laser (or "fiber laser" might be the same thing?) was the way to go. But they are seemingly all really expensive (++10k$).

Regarding the Thermark it seems you are also rigth. I just got the following from them:
"What grade of aluminum? The higher the grade, the higher wattage you need to get our materials to bond. For instance, 6061 or 7072 grade you will need at least 50 watts or higher to bond our Materials.
Please beware that we have had numerous tech support calls attempting to laser bond with our materials and Cheap Chinese lasers. We have not been very successful. Seems the beam is very inconsistent, thus making it impossible To use the same setting on the same parts. If your beam is inconsistent, the tape version will be impossible."
I really dislike this. "Slow" would be fine with me - but "hit or miss" or "inconsistent" is a absolute no-go! :-(
etch-o-matic.com reports their tech can't mark anodized alu (as expected).
As I read it, electro chemical etching would have to used before anodization and would rely on a deep mark (like standard engraving)?

Guess there's no cheap/reasonable solutions for nicely marking clear anodized aluminum but old-fashioned engraving (not quite what I had in mind). I don't think silk screen or rubber stamp printing is a viable solution for "home use" :-(
I think I'll go have a talk with the local "public shop" that has a Kern HSE 400W laser (think it's still a CO2) - at least they might have some useful information...

Thanks for the comments Ross!

[RossMosh]

Is there anyway to anodize in another color? Apple uses a grey anodizing on their products which lasers well for example. That seems like the most obvious and cheapest solution if possible.

I have no idea what you're wanting to engrave, but mechanical engraving aluminum isn't bad. Aluminum is soft enough where cutters will last and you can darken with an acid.