[ckm]

Just as an FYI to every one CNCzone. I would avoid these drives like the plague. They are often quite cheap to buy on ebay, and there is a reason for this.

They are unwilling to answer even basic questions about their hardware and, if you ask, will tell you that they never support end-users. I asked them a simple question, and got a rather annoying form answer about 'not supporting end-users'. It may be a nice product (who knows since you basically can't use it), but the company's policies make it essentially impossible for anyone to realistically use these.

And if you are an OEM, you can expect to have to provide direct end-user support forever and you should be aware that there will essentially be no residual value in these components (aka, Teknic's refusal to answer any questions unless you are OEM destroys the secondary market value of these devices). And, if you go out of business (not a pleasant thought, but it happens), your customers are screwed.

I would strongly suggest anyone looking at Teknic hardware to look at Rutex or Yaskawa instead. With Rutex, you get direct access to the designers of the hardware and Yaskawa has pretty good support. Given that Yaskawa drives and motors are plentiful on eBay, they are an obvious choice for higher end servo control, even if it's trying to match drivers and motors (patience is a virtue here...).

If you are looking at using brushless servo's with drives that are motor agnostic, Granite Devices (based in Finland) would be a lower-cost alternative. For low cost brushed servo, the Gecko drives are one of the best solutions. New, they are the same price as Yaskawa used. They have fewer features, but Mariss (the designer) is more than willing to answer any and all questions, reason alone to use his hardware. And his reasoning for providing this level of support is refreshing:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=14

In my day job (I do CNC and other stuff as a small side business), I advise very large companies on technology and business strategies, and the successful ones essentially understand what Mariss talks about. However, quite a few companies could learn a lot by reading Mariss's post, including Teknic.

Yes, it's annoying to have to deal with random questions about hardware from people you've never heard of before, esp. if you are a small business, but it's far worse to just dismiss people because you can't be bothered. Esp. if you are a small business....

As a last note, Mitsubishi Automation has some stellar support. I emailed them about specs for a 20 year old servo and they sent them to me a couple of hours later. Others have called them to get support on 15 year old controls and gotten extensive help, even though they were third or fourth owners of the machinery...

Chris.

[Al_The_Man]

As a last note, Mitsubishi Automation has some stellar support. I emailed them about specs for a 20 year old servo and they sent them to me a couple of hours later. .

I will second that regarding Mitsubishi support etc., especially the Canadian MEAU have excellent technical/parts support.
I also recommend AMC drives as a replacement for older DC drives and if you use a BLDC drive for a brushed motor , you can upgrade to a BLDC motor later.
Al.

[elec]

Just as an FYI to every one CNCzone. I would avoid these drives like the plague. They are often quite cheap to buy on ebay, and there is a reason for this.

They are unwilling to answer even basic questions about their hardware and, if you ask, will tell you that they never support end-users. I asked them a simple question, and got a rather annoying form answer about 'not supporting end-users'. It may be a nice product (who knows since you basically can't use it), but the company's policies make it essentially impossible for anyone to realistically use these.


Chris.

Hi Chris,
I think you may be confusing TEKNIC with CNC TEKNIX.
These are two totally separate companies.

TEKNIC is based in the USA http://www.teknic.com/products/servo_drive.php

CNC TEKNIX is based in Australia http://cncteknix.com
We at CNC Teknix pride ourselves in our quality products & customer support.

Thank you,
Vince, CNC Teknix

[ckm]

Vince is right. I have no experience with CNC Teknix in Australia, I was specifically referring to Teknic, an American company based in New York who make the SSt-1000 and SSt-1500 series of servo drives, among other things.

Thanks for the clarification and sorry for the confusion.

Chris.

[routerman]

I found the Tecknic drives hard to use as well. They need hard to get connectors and tech support give you the run around. Too many wires to run to each motor.
I agree with everything you said except recommending Gecko servo drives. Their stepper drives are good, but that servo drive is just a toy.
IMO,the Rutex or Viper drives are much better for DC servo.

[ckm]

I don't think I would qualify the Geckos as toys, but there are certainly not in the same league as Yaskawa.

Then again, then are not meant to be, they are supposed to be low-budget alternatives to systems that used to cost min. $1000 per axis.... Even Rutex drives get up there when you price out all the options.

Chris.

[jimhat42]

I will second that, that Teknic is extremely stubborn and just flat out refuses to provide any technical assistance. They do however provide excellent documentation (user manuals on their website) and if you can get their drives that are new or you know are 100% working, they really are good drives, but the service definately taints their reputation.

[Mike Everman]

Why do you need true closed loop? Are you running the amps in torque mode and using the control to close the loop? All they do in step systems is report where they are sending the motor, rather than truly where it is. At least these are actually going to be where you send it with no possibility of cogging.

Not sure I can help with your 3000 issue. Let's tackle it here rather than PM'ing.

Mike

[asuratman]

Hello Al,
What is your recommended cheap BLDC motor? Let me know. I have searching for this kind BLDC but mostly no detail specifications.

[ger21]

He posted that 8 years ago.....

[Mike Everman]

He posted that 8 years ago.....

My goodness, where does the time go???

In answer to the question, 500+ of various things, though we were an OEM with far less. It's not about how much all the time, it's about credibility that extra support will pay off in volume someday.

In the ensuing years here, my opinion is modified a bit. I'd skip the second hand amps and buy new Clearpath motors with integrated amplifiers from their site. Those are very reasonable, and I do believe they are phone supporting the onesy-twosy customer for those as it is much simpler. I'm using them more and more. The only downside I've run into is that they will not pass the encoder signals out to the control, so in that way it's exactly like running a stepper system without feedback. In every other way, it's night and day, servo vs. stepper.

I need to hang out here more. I can't believe it's been so long between drinks. Hi Ger.
Best regards,
Mike

[Joe T]

My goodness, where does the time go???

In answer to the question, 500+ of various things, though we were an OEM with far less. It's not about how much all the time, it's about credibility that extra support will pay off in volume someday.

In the ensuing years here, my opinion is modified a bit. I'd skip the second hand amps and buy new Clearpath motors with integrated amplifiers from their site. Those are very reasonable, and I do believe they are phone supporting the onesy-twosy customer for those as it is much simpler. I'm using them more and more. The only downside I've run into is that they will not pass the encoder signals out to the control, so in that way it's exactly like running a stepper system without feedback. In every other way, it's night and day, servo vs. stepper.

I need to hang out here more. I can't believe it's been so long between drinks. Hi Ger.
Best regards,
Mike

Mike,

Thank you. I was hoping you had subscribed to this thread - - - -

Well, you just ruined my day!!!

I had hoped to upgrade my router from the Teknic M-4780-FH/H1 servo motors with the Teknic SST 3000 drives and move from a WinCNC control software (not a closed loop system) to the appropriate Clearpath unit and Mach 4 control software.

"The only downside I've run into is that they will not pass the encoder signals out to the control"

SOL now!!!

Any suggestions? I need a true closed loop system.

Regards,
Joe T.

PS

May I PM you about the Teknic SST 3000 drive problem I am having?

[Al_The_Man]

Mike,

"The only downside I've run into is that they will not pass the encoder signals out to the control"

SOL now!!!

Any suggestions? I need a true closed loop system.

Regards,
Joe T.

I must have missed your 2009 question!
For closed loop PID systems there is LinuxCNC with a servo board, any system that uses a Galil card, also there is Kflop & Kanalog where you have the option of Mach HMI or the Kflop HMI.
The Kanalog card allows you too use the ebay prevalent analogue command drives such as A-M-C, Copley, Aerotech etc.
One advantage of a central controller is that electronic gearing can be used. Threading etc
Al.

[Joe T]

Mike,

First off, I am not a CNC technician.

I have a CNC router which uses four Teknic M-4780-FH/H1 servo motors and four Teknic SST 3000 Servo Drives. The machine has a problem which took me quite a while to diagnose the root cause. I have had a little support from Teknic, despite their OEM policy. To their credit, they have tried to support me in a limited manor.


Why do you need true closed loop?

I finally diagnosed the problem. It was caused by a bad drive. The CNC control software on my machine is WinCNC, which is not closed loop with respect to tool position.

I believe there are at least two reasons why a closed loop control software should be used on a complex machine:

1.) If the servo encoder/drive communicated back to the control software, i.e. "closed the loop," then my machine probably would not have experienced the errors the bad drive created since the control software would continue to 'drive' the motion to the correct tool position.

2.) CNC routers, mills, etc., which have multiple axes that must be perfectly coordinated, can develop problems with the motion control system. If the control software is closed loop, then PERHAPS the problem with 'self-correct' as suggested in #1 above. If the control software is open loop, then if an error occurs, especially a minor error of only a few thousandths, the machine will not close properly. By 'Close' in this context I mean not return to the original starting position accurately. Normally, 'not closing' indicates there has been some kind of change in spindle alignment. The only machine I have run before, besides my 'commodity' router using WinCNC control software, was a serious CMS 5 axis router. This machine had a full closed loop control system. So, when it did not close properly, it was due to alignment issues. Machines such as the CMS are run hard and sometimes mistakes are made by the operator or programmer. It is easy to cause an alignment problem with so much power available - hitting the stock too rapidly, etc. In my machine, is the error caused by a control software problem or an alignment problem? It took quite a while to diagnose my problem.

Some History:

I ordered a NEW Teknic SST 3000 ACW from Motion Solutions, the only Teknic distributor, previously know as Bearing Engineering. When I received the new Teknic SST 3000 and installed the drive, it solved the error issue!! FANTASTIC!! Unfortunately, the new drive would not 'enable.' Enable means communicating back to the control software when/if a drive aborts or faults.

WinCNC showed me how to use the machine to check out the error issue by not enabling the drive in the win.ini file. That is how I tested the new drive. But, one can not use the machine if one of the drives is not enabled. It creates a safety hazard and also could ruin an expensive part.

Motion Solutions tried a few times to get the drive to enable, but was never successful. So, I had to return the new drive to Motion Solutions. Very sad.

I currently have the bad drive at Ampion Industrial Servo & Controls Repair Inc. trying to get it fixed. This is the second trip to their facility. Somehow, they managed to change the 'Motor Setup' parameters on the repaired drive and reduced the maximum torque to ~1/20 the correct value. It never ends - - -

I hope Ampion can fix the Motor Setup parameter problem. I am quickly running out of options.

I find it very strange that Teknic does not support end users. All of the major motion control equipment providers, such as Siemens and Yaskawa, have available support. They charge for it, but it is available. It could be a profit center for them.

Long rant. Sorry.

But, I have to ask, why would ANYONE buy motion control equipment from Teknic? You will retire one day and perhaps close your company. How will your customers get Teknic support?

If I had known what I do now, I would never have purchased this used router with Teknic systems. Too many other options.

Late Breaking News:

I just received a response to my request to Teknic asking them which Clearpath would be a good substitute for the M-4780-FH/H1 motor. Their reply: "The ClearPath line is in a different power class than the 4780 - Teknic currently doesn't offer any new motor replacements for the 4780."

Regards,
Joe T.

[ger21]

move from a WinCNC control software (not a closed loop system) to ....................................... and Mach 4 control software.


I need a true closed loop system.

Mach4 is not a closed loop control either.
If you want a low cost closed loop system, LinuxCNC is really your only option.

[Joe T]

Mach4 is not a closed loop control either.
If you want a low cost closed loop system, LinuxCNC is really your only option.

Are you sure? Mach 3 was not, but I am told by several vendors that Mach 4 is.

Regards,
Joe T.

[James Newton]

Mach 3 can be configured to stop a job when a servo driver reports an error. Having feedback from the servo controller to the motion controller (mach 3 in this case) is very valuable. It can stop the job before the part is ruined if one axis is failing.

Our servo controller reports serious errors now, like encoder overspeed, and the next firmware update will (hopefully) include a use configurable "maximum error" setting which will signal the motion controller if the difference between the set point and the encoder feedback is more than that value.

The other thing is it seems like there is an issue with needing to replace everything when one part goes down. We tried to make our system modular... so you can use whatever encoder you like (ours or something else), whatever motor driver you like, and whatever controller you like (ours or something else). They are logically separate... each does a specific job in the system... and we think they should be separate and interchangeable components.