[VinceSRC]

Hello everyone,

We our in the market to buy our first CNC lathe for our shop. We obvious looked at HAAS and even look about them at Westec this year but as we hear from everyone stay away from them. They do look nice but that doesn't mean jack.

So I went to two local shops that we have done business with and they use Doosan machine and love them. Also our good friends down the street have some mori seiki and daewoo and love them both. So we have already had the Doosan guy come down onces but is coming back in two weeks since I still have alot of question after looking into Doosan. I have setup for the Mori guys to come down this coming week so I can look into there stuff.

We are looking for an Lathe with sub spindle and y axis with an 3" bar feeder. Now this is where my questions I have.

On the Doosan Puma 2600 they have an 2600MS(sub spindle and milling axis) and the 2600SY (sub spindle and y axis).

So what is the difference between the two? the MS you can get a bigger turret and 10 hp vs the sy 12 turret and 7.5 hp. I have the catalog on this machine but I just can figure whats the difference and benefits between the two? We are looking for a machine comparable to the HAAS DS30SSY.


Also since I haven't talk to the Mor Seiki guy yet I'm assuming the NLX 2500/700 is comparable to the Puma 2600 correct?

Thanks in advance for all your guys input and help

Vince

[underthetire]

The whole doosan vs mori thing has been beaten to death here already.
Both good machines, mori being slightly better quality.

2 year standard warranty on the mori.
Milling drive system far superior on the mori
USB, network, conversational and g code standard on the mori, with built in manuals, help functions, 3d graphics all standard on the mori. 24 hour parts guarantee or it's free on the mori. Parts center in Dallas is huge.

Customer service-check your particular area. Not all dealers are equal.

Daewoo/doosan will be less money. Either machine will make good parts, and probably have equal cycle times. Get the applications department involved with both dealers, compare notes from what each has to say. They should come up with similar specs on what you need. Don't go by what a salesman says, they are no better than car salesmen typically.

[johnecy]

we just baoght a mighty vipper 33m last year. It has a 4.5 in spindle bore and a LNS barfeeder. I am loadinf 4.0 x .5 wall tube 50 in long. Very happy with the machine had no problems.

[VinceSRC]

Underthetire thanks for the reply. And I wasn't meaning to compare what's the better company it was more I need info on the difference between Turn-milling and y axis on like doosan machines?

As both parts and service they both seem great and doosan does 1 year warranty and 3 year on the controls. But thanks for the input on why mori a little better. If mori is close to price with the doosan we will go with them.

[underthetire]

Y axis will give you off center capabilities. Without it, you can only drill on center on the od of the part, as well as milling on center. I don't care what brand machine, y axis always makes the machine less rigid. It's another axis stuck on top of the x. Some are better than others, and if a machine has linear guides instead of box, the problem is doubled. Y axis is nice to have, you need to see how many of your parts could use a y axis to justify the expense.

There are other good builders that make a y type lathe. Just stay away from off brands once you step up to this kind of machine, more moving parts=more complicated=more problems.

And I'm pretty sure the mori warranty was 2 years machine, 5 on control, but find out for sure.
One more thing I forgot to mention, was the mori comes standard now with 6gb memory on the mapps panel. This means you can load huge programs in to the control and run them from the mapps side, rather than using memory cards or tying up a pc. Not as big of deal on a lathe, but it can come in handy.

[dak1]

Popular subject lately.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/want_b...he_-_help.html

[VinceSRC]

Y axis will give you off center capabilities. Without it, you can only drill on center on the od of the part, as well as milling on center. I don't care what brand machine, y axis always makes the machine less rigid. It's another axis stuck on top of the x. Some are better than others, and if a machine has linear guides instead of box, the problem is doubled. Y axis is nice to have, you need to see how many of your parts could use a y axis to justify the expense.

There are other good builders that make a y type lathe. Just stay away from off brands once you step up to this kind of machine, more moving parts=more complicated=more problems.

And I'm pretty sure the mori warranty was 2 years machine, 5 on control, but find out for sure.
One more thing I forgot to mention, was the mori comes standard now with 6gb memory on the mapps panel. This means you can load huge programs in to the control and run them from the mapps side, rather than using memory cards or tying up a pc. Not as big of deal on a lathe, but it can come in handy.

Thanks again for all the input. We have a lot of use for the y axis so it's definitely something we want. I understand there less rigid. But most people say you don't want to go hogging it out like a mill. Does the y axis hold its tolerances well? I would think if you made a piece on the lathe then moved it to the mill you would lose as much tolerances as in the y axis if not less since you can do it in one machine without moving it.

Thanks for the head up on the better features on the mori I will look into that!

[VinceSRC]

Popular subject lately.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/want_b...he_-_help.html

Saw that thread. Thanks for the help!

[underthetire]

Precision isn't a problem usually, especially like you said, less handling, and you can barfeed some mill parts! Just can't really push to the floorboard as much as a non y axis, and they tend to not like hitting chucks as well.

[VinceSRC]

Lol yes don't remind me of hitting the chuck! Everyone says you'll do it atleast once but I don't ever plan on that. I got a great programmer who we will be being on the side to help myself learn.

[dak1]

Less handling = BETTER QUALITY, period.

Plus you get the added benefit of $0.00 fixture cost in some cases. We have a few parts that all we do is cutoff & barfeed from a turning perspective. The rest is strictly milling. Attached is an example screenshot. In some cases, I've moved parts from the mills to the mill-turns for quality reasons. Our latest machines are B-axis machines which give us a lot of flexibility in part access. I treat them like machining centers with turning capability rather than the other way around. Get a good machine & you'll be pleased. We prefer perpendicular axes. The wedge style Y's that require both X & Y to interp simultaneously to "simulate" true Y are a nightmare for maintenance. (At least that's what our guys say). We only have 1 of these & those guys hate it.

[underthetire]

IDK, the wedge is ok, not bad to work on, usually the downside is less travel in the Y with those. Upside is smaller machine foot print.

[dak1]

IDK, the wedge is ok, not bad to work on, usually the downside is less travel in the Y with those. Upside is smaller machine foot print.

The sales reps selling them will say they are more rigid also. I'm not sure I buy that statement. I like the true Y personally. (Machining centers use perpandicular axes).

[underthetire]

He is correct to a degree, since your not pushing a giant lever moment on top of the X & Z axis. You have to keep in mind on a mill, your not stacking 3 axis all on top of each other. Is one truly better than the other, that I can't say for certain. Guess it would depend on the type of work, and material removal rates.

[dak1]

He is correct to a degree, since your not pushing a giant lever moment on top of the X & Z axis. You have to keep in mind on a mill, your not stacking 3 axis all on top of each other. Is one truly better than the other, that I can't say for certain. Guess it would depend on the type of work, and material removal rates.

Good point! Hadn't given that a thought.

[jreillycnc1]

Great choice of machine tool. Doosan Puma's are at the top of the mountain in price of performance right now. That is something that is changing often but today they are the best.
The difference between the 2 machines is that one has a y-axis for milling and the MS does not mill off center line.
If you want detailed explainations, I can give them to direct. Most people go with the SY if there is any chance that other work will come up that need milling,

[jreillycnc1]

Just to clarify the Doosan Puma has no rigidity issues in the toughest materials and it is box way. The Mori is the ultimate in all ways but in most cases you will have a tough time putting the cost difference into value between More and Doosan. Companies that buy progressive machines like this are generally going to upgrade again so the 30 year to 20 year argument is usually moot and way overused. The direct drive tools in the Mori design will have value. There are a number of machine tools that fall in the price gap between Doosan and Mori but these are really the top players today for the most deamanding turning applications in the most demanding materials. There are no other machines that salesmen of other machines hate to see more than Mori or Doosan. They will likely never see future business out of these customers. Now for cheap machines, and non-demanding applications its another story. Sometimes the application can get away with cheap and less rigid.

[underthetire]

Honestly, I don't think there is this huge gap in price that everyone seems to think. Someone on this forum was quoted 8k difference between to comparable machines.

[jreillycnc1]

I can assure you that a apples to apples box way machine from Mori compared to Doosan will be much greater than 8k difference. If 8k is the difference the solution is not the best they have to offer. Whoever came up with this number is not in the know.

[underthetire]

Well, I don't know current prices on the doosan stuff, and really don't know on the current mori pricing. I do know the exchange rate sucks right now for the US. I do have a friend that bough a nl1500smc (sub spindle live tooling) and it was actually less than doosan. So to think there is this huge price difference, I would like to see actual numbers.