[rnm85]

Where is the best place to get CNC router bits in Australia in metric sizes? I'm looking mainly for bits to use with plywood that give a high quality finish. It would help if they were online.

Thanks for the help,

Rory

[RCaffin]

Where is the best place to get CNC router bits in Australia in metric sizes? I'm looking mainly for bits to use with plywood that give a high quality finish. It would help if they were online.

Australian retailers are pricing themselves out of existance. The best 'Australia' source is Australia Post - parcels from overseas.

I have been buying HSS and carbide via eBay. Watch out for the really cheap Chinese stuff. The better suppliers (HK and China) quote HRCnn values for their cutters, and *will* state whether the cutter is for wood&plastic, aluminium or steel. The shape of the flutes does differ. Some is the HRC55 stuff is really wicked!

Cheers

[maggs]

Australian retailers are pricing themselves out of existance. The best 'Australia' source is Australia Post - parcels from overseas.

I have been buying HSS and carbide via eBay. Watch out for the really cheap Chinese stuff. The better suppliers (HK and China) quote HRCnn values for their cutters, and *will* state whether the cutter is for wood&plastic, aluminium or steel. The shape of the flutes does differ. Some is the HRC55 stuff is really wicked!

Cheers

I'd like to support Australian retailers too but the prices are just so far out of the ballpark that for a hobbyist it's just not feasible. I recently went to a well known machine tool supplier for a few bits and it was going to cost 3 times the price than I can get them from the USA or Europe. They didn't have them in stock and said they would have them in 3-5 days. I ordered them from the USA and got them delivered to my door in 4 days. Sad but true.
I haven't yet found an Australian supplier that can meet my needs in quality and price but I'm still hoping and looking. I don't mind paying a bit more but 3 times the price won't cut it for me. How I envy our USA members that have stores like McMaster Carr and Harbour Feight stores for general machine shop supplies. On most of my builds I spend more time sourcing parts than actually doing the job.

[rnm85]

Thanks for the help! This may be a stupid question (i'm buying bits for my first build that is almost finished) Are end mills the same as router bits? I'm looking on McMaster-Carr at their metric carbide end mills. Just want to make sure i've got it right before buying anything!

Thanks for the help

Rory

[RCaffin]

Are end mills the same as router bits?

No. Many router bits are like dental burrs. However, you always use end mills on timber.

I'm looking on McMaster-Carr at their metric carbide end mills.

Check with them first: they have stopped accepting new international customers due to the increased complexity of USA export regulations (email from them today). This is how the USA government is helping their industry succeed ...

Cheers

[woodworm]

Hi,
For a wood router mill you need spiral bits I used to get them from Mcjing in Sydney, but the last time I bought bits from MLCS woodworking in the states. Surprise when I got them home, they had identical id numbers but were half the price.

[RCaffin]

when I got them home, they had identical id numbers but were half the price.

Yes, that is perfectly normal. Which may be why Oz Retail is having so much trouble: their prices are so unreal that customers are rebelling.

Australia Post is recording a double digit increase in parcel traffic, which they attribute entirely to the web.

cheers

[MonoNeuron]

I think the increase in Aus Post is due to the high Aus dollar, mostly.
I buy most of my milling cutters out of Hong Kong through CTCtools, also found on the web. very cheap prices and good delivery times. The cutters are about B+ to A quality ( not A+ ) but good enough for what I want. I have never had a delivery go missing and they arrive in about 1 week from buying. I don't mind buying from overseas as I am just 1 person out of thousands so I am just a drop in the ocean and the amount I buy wouldn't cripple a business if I didn't get them from them.
Prices start from about $2 for high speed and then go up from there. They have a pretty good selection of tooling and also cutting tools. For the price you can't go wrong. :-)
Richard.

CTC Tools Home Page

[RCaffin]

I buy most of my milling cutters out of Hong Kong through CTCtools,

I have had good luck with them too.

Cheers

[Coxsteve]

One drop in the ocean adds up guys,Personally I would never buy Chinese cutting tools and have only ever bought Sutton,Dormer or Sandvich as I wish these quality products to still be available in the future.
Same applies to local purchase,People in China do not pay the wages of people who may well be my customers at work and hence keep me employed.

If you wish to purchase from overseas then by all means the UK Europe or the USA where the quality and backup is more reliable,I know a local Gasweld store owner and he now refuses to stock anything but Sutton Drills and Taps as he has had too many customers complaining about poor quality Chinese stuff.

China has either directly or indirectly taken control of 90% of the worlds raw material supplies for the production of Tungsten Carbide used in most cutting tools,This is not good for either Industry's of many varieties or Hobbyists.

Putting that into perspective in Sydney over the last 20 odd years the Asians moved into the Plastering section of the building game,They consistently worked for next to nothing and drove the Greeks,Italians and Australians virtually our of that section of the Industry.

Today you will be hard pressed to find a plasterer that is not Asian and they have become expensive but the quality and pride of workmanship is no longer there in the Jobs they do compared to the previous practicioners of that trade.
So we have lost good workmanship standards for a short term financial gain and once they have taken over and driven the oposition out of business you get low grade workmanship or products and the price soon surpasses what you once paid for quality except you now pay good money for junk.
Think long term or live to regret it as have so many others around the world wondering how to pay the Bills or Feed the Kids,The future is what you make it by your decisions today.

As for better pricing Locally we communicate here and elsewhere organise group buys.if you want better value ,and do so Locally or with those overseas who are our natural allies,Or dare I say it support those who support you on this forum with their advertising

[RCaffin]

Personally I would never buy Chinese cutting tools and have only ever bought Sutton,Dormer or Sandvich as I wish these quality products to still be available in the future.

I've given up on Sutton. The shanks are soft and most of the new Sutton drills I have show a slight bend along the length. Test them against a straight edge to see. OK for timber, NOT suitable for CNC use.
Dormer drills - good stuff, but Dormer service in Australia is atrocious. Ask a retailer about that.
I haven't tried Chinese drills.

Chinese machine tools come in TWO classes.
Class 1: old State factories, only sell by the 1000, uncertain quality, want T/T or letters of credit in advance. To be avoided.
Class 2: new private enterprise, European manager, new German & Swiss CNC production machinery, imported German or Swedish carbide, efficient sales via the web.

The two classes are VERY different. Yes, I use stuff from Class 2, and it is wicked stuff on steel! Their service is good too.

China has either directly or indirectly taken control of 90% of the worlds raw material supplies for the production of Tungsten Carbide used in most cutting tools

Ha. But the Chinese import German and Swedish carbide for their best offerings.

It is up to the West to compete; any other attitude is futile. OK, the West has had a wake-up call. Can we respond by improving our game?

Cheers

[Beefy]

It is up to the West to compete; any other attitude is futile.

I have to agree with that. I've been in business for about 12 years and one thing I've learnt is that most people will screw you down to whatever they can. Very few customers seem to care if screwing you down in price while demanding exceptional service, will just about make it impossible for your business to survive. I've had heart to heart talks with long term customers who I'm friendly with. When I tell them about some of my difficulties they say no way should I have to eat that s**t BUT when it's time for them to get what they can out of me their words are quickly forgotten.

I certainly can't see any love of Australia and forethought of our future make customers pay multiples of the price rather than getting the items overseas. There will always be exceptions and I commend those, but I doubt there'll ever be enough to make a difference. The masses want cheap, cheap, cheap and I don't care how I get it.

[brumby]

Where is the best place to get CNC router bits in Australia in metric sizes? I'm looking mainly for bits to use with plywood that give a high quality finish. It would help if they were online.

Thanks for the help,

Rory

Ive used Mcjing.com.au before Overnight express and price is pretty good. Quality seems fine also

[Coxsteve]

It is up to the West to compete; any other attitude is futile.

I certainly can't see any love of Australia and forethought of our future make customers pay multiples of the price rather than getting the items overseas. There will always be exceptions and I commend those, but I doubt there'll ever be enough to make a difference. The masses want cheap, cheap, cheap and I don't care how I get it.

Yes but who wants to compete in a race to the bottom.
Personally I believe the answer is not Tarrifs as in the past but protecting Australian jobs by requiring Higher standards for any imported goods with a safety requirement in the legislation to stop deliberate dumping designed to eliminate opposition.
When quality products can compete on a level playing field all will benefit,but as long as China effectively practices War through economic means designed to destroy our industries we need to recognise the costs involved

[aarggh]

Yes but who wants to compete in a race to the bottom.
Personally I believe the answer is not Tarrifs as in the past but protecting Australian jobs by requiring Higher standards for any imported goods with a safety requirement in the legislation to stop deliberate dumping designed to eliminate opposition.
When quality products can compete on a level playing field all will benefit,but as long as China effectively practices War through economic means designed to destroy our industries we need to recognise the costs involved

I personally have lost much of my loyalty to the Aussie sector as I'm sick of how we get shamelessly ripped off here. Going to a local supplier to buy a Chinese cutter for $12-$15, when I can buy the exact same cutter from numerous sellers online, AND have shipped to another country, for around $3-$5 total is just ludicrous. If they were selling higher quality products I could understand the price difference, but the vast majority are simply bulk importing Chinese gear, and reselling at 300% to 1000% margins. This is exactly why the book industry is now dead in Australia. I reckon Dick Smith is an Aussie legend for his unwavering loyalty to all things Australian, but when businesses are so greedy and have ridiculously unrealistic mark ups, on goods COMMONLY available via the web for a fraction of the price, and usually with free shipping, it's hard to feel sorry for the state of retail in OZ.

And yes, the enforcement of specifying not only quality standards on imports, but also product comparisons would be a great start in sorting the rubbish from the gold.

cheers,
Ian

[Eclipze]

The amusing thing is... the masses want cheap, and the importers are always asking for cheap from China. So what does China produce? Cheap products. If we demanded quality and didn't buy cheap, their output would be different.

People tend to buy cheap and complain or not realise the difference. But as an Aussie manufacturer, I find it difficult to compete with China when there is little recourse for faulty goods. ie.. someone buys something from overseas, it breaks or doesn't perform as expected, and it's thrown in the rubbish. Yet if it was a product I designed and manufactured, they would be coming back for a refund or exchange. So my products are high reliability, high quality. Educating the customer on the difference is hard work.

Which leads me to my next point... education on what makes a good tool bit, so good.

I use a lot of small bits 1/8" and smaller... down to 0.6mm. Majority are from Precisebits in the US. I have a lot of 6mm, couple of 4, 8 and 12mm bits, all of which are Sutton. I don't use Chinese bits (except for one awesome V-Tip I got with my CNC). Tried a few China bits early on from ebay and just wasted my money.

Otherwise... to know the difference, I really have to spend the time and money to buy several different brands. I've read some bad comments on Sutton bits, however so far they have done the job for me. However I need very sharp and low friction bits for machining materials like acrylic. Usually 3 flute. So it's difficult to consider what others recommend and report, and I'm sure I lack the machining education to tell some of the differences to look for with comparing brands.

[aarggh]

The amusing thing is... the masses want cheap, and the importers are always asking for cheap from China. So what does China produce? Cheap products. If we demanded quality and didn't buy cheap, their output would be different.

People tend to buy cheap and complain or not realise the difference. But as an Aussie manufacturer, I find it difficult to compete with China when there is little recourse for faulty goods. ie.. someone buys something from overseas, it breaks or doesn't perform as expected, and it's thrown in the rubbish. Yet if it was a product I designed and manufactured, they would be coming back for a refund or exchange. So my products are high reliability, high quality. Educating the customer on the difference is hard work.

Which leads me to my next point... education on what makes a good tool bit, so good.

I use a lot of small bits 1/8" and smaller... down to 0.6mm. Majority are from Precisebits in the US. I have a lot of 6mm, couple of 4, 8 and 12mm bits, all of which are Sutton. I don't use Chinese bits (except for one awesome V-Tip I got with my CNC). Tried a few China bits early on from ebay and just wasted my money.

Otherwise... to know the difference, I really have to spend the time and money to buy several different brands. I've read some bad comments on Sutton bits, however so far they have done the job for me. However I need very sharp and low friction bits for machining materials like acrylic. Usually 3 flute. So it's difficult to consider what others recommend and report, and I'm sure I lack the machining education to tell some of the differences to look for with comparing brands.

I'm really glad to see someone who still takes pride in their industry, I think that is sorely lacking nowadays, and most people would appreciate that. I also do fully agree there is a world of difference between most good, and cheap quality products, for example with power tools, unless you've used one most people would never appreciate a Festo sander or router being 6-8 times the cost of an Ozito (but you could buy 8 of them for that price!), but a tradie or professional would. Same for the consumables, Festo sandpaper seems to last forever, whereas cheap Chinese Bunnings stuff disintegrates easily. I have no qualms saving up for a good quality tool, especially when precision comes into at all, I bought a couple of the cheap Chinese dial indicators and found they were garbage, absolutely unusable for any meaningful readings. So I like the American, or preferably the Japanese ones, which are considerably far more expensive, but IMHO well worth it as its a tool to proud of.

But the problem I see is the retailers are still thinking 20th century closed markets model, and either assume the customers are too stupid to know that the world is now a very small place, and it's as easy to get something from Russia, China, America, or anywhere else, as it is from the shop 2 suburbs away, or just don't care and work on the upper percentile profit ratio. This arrogance is a lot to blame for a lack of customer loyalty, and the influx of "bottom dollar" products. And while a percentage of consumers are reasonably informed and appreciate quality items that do the job well and last, I also think a lot truly belive an item can only be made one way, so therefore an item from China must be the same as an item from here, but at a fraction of the cost. This does lead to the perception that retail is simply greedy here, which for the power tool, and tool accessories market is very true, when the identical item from the same manufacturer WITH shipping, is usually half to 3/5ths of the cost for the same thing locally, which they order from overseas too! It's very hard to convince a customer that there's a 200-300% value add over the counter I think. And this is the issue, the bulk of suppliers I've seen are curently doing nothing more than reselling the same Chinese stuff I can buy direct myself but for a fraction of the cost. As I found with one local supplier, he's buying the Chinese cutters, which are $40AU inc shipping for ten, and resells them at $15 each, $40 to $150 is more than a tad greedy IMO, even allowing for a breakage and warranty buffer. Another example is the Festool dust extractors are generally around half the cost in the States, and with around $100 shipping would be very cheap, but Festool doesn't allow cross country purchasing, so we get ripped off blind here for the same stuff. We are still waiting for the new Domino to come out that was released in the UK ages ago, and it will be horrendously expensive when it is I have no doubt. And the smaller market argument doesn't work here anymore as anything is available anywhere at anytime now. Given how most suppliers now are little more than dropshippers for Chinese products anyway, but with a massive "value add" margin built in, it's hard to justify them being in business, hence my earlier remarks about the book industry. The music and video industry would be in the same boat to a certain extent if it wasn't such a juggernaut, but media is also a lifestyle thing, tooling consumables aren't.

But for some consumables, such as router bits, mill bits, etc, I tend to go through them a bit, so while I'd be happy to pay a little more for better quality items, the price difference is very large, and the cheap ones do me just fine generally. And some of the cheap ones I've found have been every bit as good as a local cutter, but at a fraction of the price. Some, have been a bit iffy, but on the whole were still good value for the job they did and how long they lasted. As I quite often seem to inadvertantly damage bits, I prefer to damage the cheap ones! When the Chinese started bringing out carbide router bits, at a ridiculous price difference, it made it impossible to justify paying $50-$75 for a single standard bit from Carbi-tool, when an entire set of 20 cutters was $60 total! And maybe I've just been extremely lucky with the cutters I've bought over the years, but I have never had a standard profile Carbi-tool router bit last any longer or perform any better than the Chinese ones.

As I develop more experience and knowledge in cnc and mill machining, I'd also be happy to buy more expensive, better quality bits, but for now, i'll just keep on mutilating the cheapo ones!

Cheers,
Ian

[Eclipze]

I bought a Festool for extraction... extra cost, but definitely a fine addition. I wanted to get the dust deputy attachment from the US, but they cancelled my order (which they had quoted the day prior to paying) and told me to go to the new local rep. They'd just got a container full in. I was horrified at the price they were charging locally. I even argued with them over the price as it was so much higher compared to the pricing overseas. Didn't get one. Just so greedy.

For some equipment, particularly the more bulky items, it's quite a disadvantage not being located within the US. That goes the same for retail too, as shipping from Australia to overseas is just so much more expensive. Try to send a small box by courier with tracking for under $50. Yet even from the US to here, you'd get that for less. China have subsidised frieght costs, which doesn't help.

I would expect the tool bit market to have similar competition. But perhaps as the cost of living in China increases, so will their wages and the cost of manufactured goods.

[aarggh]

I bought a Festool for extraction... extra cost, but definitely a fine addition. I wanted to get the dust deputy attachment from the US, but they cancelled my order (which they had quoted the day prior to paying) and told me to go to the new local rep. They'd just got a container full in. I was horrified at the price they were charging locally. I even argued with them over the price as it was so much higher compared to the pricing overseas. Didn't get one. Just so greedy.

For some equipment, particularly the more bulky items, it's quite a disadvantage not being located within the US. That goes the same for retail too, as shipping from Australia to overseas is just so much more expensive. Try to send a small box by courier with tracking for under $50. Yet even from the US to here, you'd get that for less. China have subsidised frieght costs, which doesn't help.

I would expect the tool bit market to have similar competition. But perhaps as the cost of living in China increases, so will their wages and the cost of manufactured goods.

Carba-tec has the dust deputy for $200, and while we are getting reamed, the unit is so damn good you must get one! The difference is amazing! I use mine for everything from wood to aluminium, on suction speeds from lowest setting to high, and it gets virtually everything, unbelievable! If you don't do it for your extractor bags, do it for your lungs!

I also don't think you could get a finer extractor than a Festool, in my experience anyway, my last one lasted around 20 years before I blew it up with fine aluminium dust that blew through the filter, I could have cried I was so upset with that. I still haven't been able to bring myself to get rid of it, so I'm musing several projects, including using it as a base for the dust deputy!

cheers,
Ian