[Temo]

I look the schematics and the M5 contactor is not located, however, the M3 appears but I dont remember looking at it in the panel.

Tomorrow I'll test the switch open and closed, will take some pics, and I'll do the trace of wires and such following the schematics.

All wires are labeled, that is a very good thing.

I'll keep posting.

BTW, can I change the title of this thread?

Thanks.

[FanFan]

Temo. Hello. It is your topic and of course you can change the title of the topic. Just as long the software allows you to. I have to make a correction. In your photo of the contactors. They are labeled as M5 and M6. In my post I kept referring to M3. I really meant to say M5. In that photo M5 's blue tab is pulled in. It would be nice to know what that contactor is being used for. It is sending 3 phase power to some device. It is most likely being told by the brains to do so. By the fact that M5 contactor is pulling in, it strongly suggests that the software is running.

Some tid bits of information. On M5. At the three wires at the top of the contactor 3 phrase power comes in at terminal 1,3 and 5. At the bottom where it says T2, T2 and T3, three phase power is coming out when it is pulled in (sending 3 phase power out). When it is not pulled in then 3 phase power should not be coming out. 3 phase power is normally 440 or 220VAC. Those voltage are very lethal. Unless you have experience you should leave it up to a qualified electronic technician or an electrician to measure those higher voltages. On each of those M contactors there should be a coil. Going to that coil there should be a control voltage ( most likely 120 VAC - single phrase) whenever it is pulled in. I can not see in the photo where the terminals for the coil are. When it is not pulled in, then there should be zero volts at the coil. On the right side of the contactor it looks like a NC set of auxillary contacts are being used. The NO set are not being used . Between T1,T2 and T3 and the device that the 3 phase is being feed to, there should be an overload block. On that overload block there should be a set of NC contacts that will open if the overload is tripped. Coming out of the overload block there should be 3 phase power going to the device that is ultimately being controlled ( if the overload is not tripped). If the overload is tripped then there should be no power coming out of the overload block. Also note that M5 is smaller (physcially) then M6. M5 can handle less power than M6.

If you have machine specify prints please post them. It should be easy to explain things. It is also will tell us what things affect what things. It allows us to see what that brain is thinking and looking for.

I would like to say once again. Be very careful when you are around high voltages. Especially when they measure around 220 or 440 VAC. They are lethal. That being said. You can see what is going on by looking whether the contactor are pulled in. FanFan

[Al_The_Man]

On each of those M contactors there should be a coil. Going to that coil there should be a control voltage ( most likely 120 VAC - single phrase) whenever it is pulled in. I can not see in the photo where the terminals for the coil are.

On those Telemecanique contactors the coil terminal are situated at the rear of the contactor and labeled A1 A2.
Al.

[Temo]

The attached pictures are the motor and pump including the filter that has its own reset buttom. The other is the Pressure Switch.

Can the coils be damaged?...

I had a chance to look into the machine today and found out someting interesting regarding the Pressure Switch.

I'll try to explain simple but accurate, the test was conducted with the machine ON, program loaded.

First I check for continuity with out the wires and there was none, so I plug the wires, and checked for voltage, it read 52 volts. Remember, Machine is ON waiting for me to power up the motor. Once I press the button it takes a few seconds for the alarm to come up, but it does.

What I did next was that I unscrew the socket that you see at the center, (I know that this has mess up the pre-set pressure) untill I had continuity --also no wires conected--, then I plug the wires and I had no voltage at all, then I press the button again to power up the machine and the alarm shows up instantly.

Now I have reason to believe that the power to the machine is somehow screwd up, does 52 volts sound right for you guys?

The reason that I didn't had any volt reading the other day was that our friend checked with the voltmeter in High Voltage...

I'll push hard for schematics in PDF for tomorrow...

I know that its going slow, but suddenly we got tons of conventional machining work, literally I'm looking into the machine in breaks...

Thanks for the input.

[FanFan]

Hello, Thanks for the photo's.

52 volts doesn't sound like the norm. Just so we are on the same page. Are you using a digital meter and are you on the AC volt range ( not DC range) when you reading the voltage? I think you are but I am just checking.

You asked if the coils are okay. I am not sure what coil you are referring to. If you are taking about the pressure switch then it is a switch and it does not have a coil but instead it has a set of NO (normally open) set of contacts. With the way you described your test. It sound like the switch is sitting there and the contacts are opened. When you start the Hyd. then the contacts closes and then that is when your fault appears. In your earlier posted you stated:

now there's another alarm: Machine Hydraulic Pressure Switch.

It says that 2 conditions can cause the problem:
1.- an attemp was made to start the machine hydraulics and the signal for Hydraulic Pressure Switch is present before hydraulics are turned on.
2.- Machine hydraulics were started and the signal for Hydraulic Pressure Switch was not received.

A couple of questions, Is that all it says in the book and on the screen? "Machine Hydraulic Pressure Switch". There is not fault number or other words? Are there any pressure gauges near the pump. I don't see any in your photo's but I am just checking.

A couple of things you can try. First, Have someone else try to start the HYD for you. Check three things: 1. Is the Hyd motor turning? One way to do that, is in the Hyd Motor photo it show that there are cooling fan fins on the right side of the assembly, check to see if those fins are turning at all. Also if they do turn, try to see in which direction the fins coast to a stop after getting the fault. You might need a flashlight. 2. Open up the machine cabinet and see if you can see which M contactor comes in when your assistant tries to start the HYD. Again Please be very careful and keep your distance from the cabinet, stay at least 2 to 3 feet away from the open cabinet, just observe. Technically speaking you should have an electrician do this check. We are just observing so you can report your observations to him. Also a good practice is don't have any other persons near the open cabinets. 3. One other thing to try is to take one of the wires off the pressure switch. Make sure the wire and the terminal are covered with some electrical tape. Try to start the Hyd. See if the Hyd stay running for any longer period of time. If by chance the hyd stays running I would only let them run for about 15- 30 secs longer than when you are getting the fault. We are just doing this to look for clues. If you gets some prints that would be great. Also if possible can you take a photo of where all the M contactors are and also a photo of where the CNC control is in the cabinet. It would be nice to see what all you got in the cabinets. Thanks FanFan

PS, If you don't feel comfortable doing anything I suggested don't do it. Get an electrician to help you. Always be safe.

[Al_The_Man]

My guess on the sequence is that the hydraulics are turned on and the control looks for the P.S. closure within a very short time period.
It should be very obvious if the hydraulic pump comes on as not only are they usually fairly loud but a hand on the hydraulic pump will show it also.
What you could do with care, is remove the two leads from the P.S. and within 1 sec, short them with a jumper or other means, this simulates the switch action and fools the control to believing the pump has pressure.
Of course there is still a problem and could be lack of Hyd pressure if indeed the pump is turning.
It sounds to me as the the P.S. is OK.
The voltage could vary from 24vdc to 120vac, depending on what it is hooked into at the receiving end.
If the pump is not turning on when it should then this is obviously the cause of the problem.
Al.

[Temo]

Today was a crazy day at the shop but to answer some of the questions Fanfan:

I am using a digital meter and I did had it on AC.

The pressure gages are at the front of the machine and both read cero.

Regarding the message, it's all it says, well it also says possible solutions but only says "clear alarm", "check item" and "repair as necessary".

The motor does not turn on at all.

I will find a way to do both test that you guys have recommended; definitely the fault should be really close to find.

Al_The_Man, when you say that the voltage could vary does this means that 52V might not be a bad switch?

Thanks guys, I'll keep you posted.

[FanFan]

Temo, How is it going today? So the HYD motor is not turning at all. Did you get a chance to listen/watch the M contactors in the cabinet? Are any of the them trying to pick up at all? Also you mentioned guages, are there two gauges for the hyd pressure or is one for lube pressure or something else?

Just to do some housekeeping. What ever happen to OL-1? Did you ever try resetting that? Please double check that overload. When you press the trip in, how does that feel? Please compare that to any ( actually all of them) of the other overloads. When you press them in they all should "feel " the same.

Also did you check all your E-stop button. Take a minute and check them all. Press all of them in and pull ( twist) them back out. Once in a while one will find an e-stop trip that one didn't think was trip. We should get a message if the estop is tripped but let's double check them anyway. Check to see if there are any estop buttons in the back of the bach and on the chip coveyor.

If that hyd motor is not turning at all then we will have to look into that further. We will have to see where that leads us. Take it easy. FanFan

[Al_The_Man]

Al_The_Man, when you say that the voltage could vary does this means that 52V might not be a bad switch?

Thanks guys, I'll keep you posted.

If the Hyd. pump is not coming on then you can very likely ignore the pressure sw as the problem, and from what you say it appears to be working, re-set to approximately where it was and look for the reason the pump is not on.
Do you have any prints that show the Hyd circuit at all you can post? If they show any detail as to which contactor is the Hyd, then see if it energizes by observing if the armature pulls in, if it does not, then the coil energizing circuit has to be traced.
Al.

[Temo]

Pics of Breakers and Contactors.

[Temo]

Here the schematic showing Hydraulic Pump, Contactor M3 and Breaker CB3...

[Temo]

Schematic showing the fuse number 09 as the one to the line 424.

[Temo]

Schematic showing the conection on the Hy pressure Switch.

[Temo]

Hi guys I have posted the schematics that show the parts we are interested in, also you will see the pics of the breakers and contactors.

I did the test that you guys suggested and no results.

I notice that roughly the time that the alarm takes to show up is 10 sec since the moment I press the ON button.

I was overthinking what you told me Al_The_Man regarding that maybe the sw is good; could it be that once I press the button to start the machine (not the program since I have that on the screen), the brains send a signal to the motor to start up, then the brain assume the motor did start up and since the Pressure Switch doesn't have any pressure, then the brain send the signal that the Pressure Switch is at fault?....

Regarding the Contactor, per the schematics, the one for the pump is M3, out of all the Contactors only one pulls the armature, M5 and that one is not in the schematics that I have.

Regarding the E-stops everything is good.

Maybe I'm overlooking something since I'm overthinking the situation...

[FanFan]

Temo, Hello. On the print ( lets call it Print #1) that shows ( CB3 , M3 and the HYD Motor) is basically telling us that if M3 coil is picked up then the HYD motor ( MOT3) should turn on.

So the question now is what tells M3 contactor to pick up. That should be the coil of the M3. We have to find that M3 coil on the prints. I can read the Print #1. The others are a little blurry for me. These old eyes don't work as well as they use to. I tried to magnify the photos but it still is a bit blurry. Am I the only one with that problem?

But I don't think that coil is being shown on those other two prints. Somewhere else on the prints there the coil M3. Look on the prints and look for a circle labeled M3. The circle should be about 1/5 the size of the circle labeled MOT3. It should be on the right side of print. My guess is that being driven by some output from the CNC.

FanFan

Al, what do you think about "jousting" momentarily M3 contactor? I don't think it would do any harm and it should tells us the phrase is right, and that the high voltage is there and that the overload is not tripped. Basically that all the power is there.

[Al_The_Man]

I was overthinking what you told me Al_The_Man regarding that maybe the sw is good; could it be that once I press the button to start the machine (not the program since I have that on the screen), the brains send a signal to the motor to start up, then the brain assume the motor did start up and since the Pressure Switch doesn't have any pressure, then the brain send the signal that the Pressure Switch is at fault?....

.

Yes, The sequence as I see it is probably when the control send the command to M3 coil it should turn on the Hyd pump, the control then expects to see the P.S. within a reasonable time, (set in the controller), if the P.S. is not seen, it assumes there is a Hyd problem of some kind CB3 tripped etc, and issues the alarm.

The only other thing in the hyd power circuit is CB3, just before the contactor, I agree it is best to pursue why the contactor Coil is not picked up.
I don't think there is any purpose to pushing the contactor in, as unless CB3 is tripped and has a contact in the coil circuit It may be chasing a red herring.
If the coil comes from what appears to be a PLC, then the easiest way would be to look at the ladder logic if this is at all possible??
Otherwise without this or a hard copy of the ladder logic, it is almost impossible to tell what is impeding M3 coil pull in?
Al.

[Temo]

What is the Ladder Logic?

[Al_The_Man]

A PLC or that part of the controller is a processor that takes all the inputs, switches, sensors etc and in place of hard wiring processes all the functions internally and the result is the required outputs, contactors, solenoids, it it shown pictorially in a display that represents the typical wiring diagram that would be otherwise shown in print form for hard wired systems.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=plc+l...w=1920&bih=937
It is a very useful tool for troubleshooting as controllers that have this feature, will display the inputs and outputs that are ON in a highlighted manner, drastically cutting down on troubleshooting time.
Al.

[FanFan]

So has anyone seen where M3 coil is on the prints? It should be coming from the CNC control ( the Siemens Acramatic 2100). Perhaps via an output interface board or device.

PAL or ladder logic would help a lot. It could tell us the requirements that the brain (CNC control) is looking for to turn that M3 coil on. There is a possibility that M3 coil is turn on but a fuse or it's output is blown.

Not knowing the control or seeing the prints it is hard to tell if that is what is happening. On some controls the Ladder Logic is viewable on the screen...often thru a sub mantainance menu/screen. Thing is, that you have to be able to find it/them.

I have tried to look on the internet about the Siemen acramatic 2100- Cincinnati Arrow 150 machine. Aside from a couple of you tube video that are are not showing any helpful I haven't found anything. It would be nice if there are Arrow 150 or Acramatic 2100 owners on this forum that could offer us some useful info on those devices.

Temo, in the photos that you last posted I can almost see something that is kinda interesting. It is a lite beige or tan device in the first photo. Can you read the information on the front of it's face? Is there a manufacter's name or a device name on it or a model number?

FanFan

PS Al, jousting the contactor may give us some bogus info but it also could tell us if there at least some 3 phrase power going out to the HYD motor. At this point it hasn't been established if say there is 440 VAC, 3 phase,and the proper phasing coming into the CB3. Of course that test will not tell us if we are missing one phrase. Do you know if the Telemecanique contactors have overload detection built into them or is an option?

[Al_The_Man]

. Do you know if the Telemecanique contactors have overload detection built into them or is an option?

The Telemecanique usually have the O/L clipped to the bottom of the Contactor, But I am presuming that the CB3 takes the place of the O/L that would normally be fitted.
The Tan device appears to be a Safety Relay, The modern version of the E-Stop relay.
If a PLC is used, which is likely, the coil would assigned an output.
Al.