[sdfoiler]

Fadal Experts,


I'm at a crossroads. Most of my work is surfacing - but it's a machine in my garage doing the work (1990 4020 CNC88 10K spindle DC). Everything works very well, albeit slowly. I do the parts in my spare time, so although time is important, it's not the end of the world if a part takes 10 minutes longer than it should.

Here's my dilemma; I know if I upgraded to a newer control, I would be able to push the machine much faster (currently dnc surfacing at around 50-60ipm with run times of around 3-4 hours per part). Parts wouldn't take near as long. I'm sure the surface finish would be much better with a new controller(all of my work is done on aluminum). The control could be networked - no more DNC. Etc.

So assuming there is enough money to throw at upgrading the controller, would you do it, and what would you go with?
numatix fadal conversion?
numeryx (can you still buy them?)
softservo
others?

Or am I crazy for even thinking of going down this road? The Fadal is a workhorse and still holding good tolerances. The machine has had issues now and then, but easy to fix and find parts for. Hard for me to justify throwing the machine away to spend lots of money getting something the same size but faster when I could just upgrade the controller.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

Bryan

[Techman]

Just out of curiosity- are you running format 1 with a G8? I also do alot of surfacing. The machine defaults to G9 and if G8 isn't coded the difference is dramatic.
Hope this helps.

Jim

[DareBee]

I agree with Jim on the G8.
Also Bryan, are you using all that travel for your surfacing?
The Fadal is a great machine but not designed for that kind of speed. Even with a super new controller, it is very difficult to get proper surfacing speeds out of machine with that mach table mass and riding on boxway slides. 10K spindle is also way too slow for surfacing aluminum.
I would strongly suggest getting a machine just big enough for your parts on linear ways with 20K spindle and high speed controller. If a CNC 88 can do it in 3 hours a Makino V22 would do it in 30 min. I know you dont want to spend Makino type money, but your machine should bring 10G and a new control is 15G so that puts budget for a more appropriate machine at minimum of 25G.

[sdfoiler]

I use format 2 on the Fadal.

And yes, unfortunately I do use pretty much the full table (24" x 18" is one part) with the rest having a vise mounted permanently. I do understand my machine is severely limited due to spindle speed no matter what I do. Right now I'm limited to 9600 baud across DNC, so maybe I should just upgrade the fadal electronics so at least I can push data faster and not run out of buffered data.

Thanks for the suggestions, guys! They are greatly appreciated!

Bryan

[Jet A]

I have considered what you are for exactly the same reasons. You try to get any sort of speed out of the control at 9800 baud and the machine chokes. If you have a CAM program that will filter, use it, it helps.

To anwser your question. I conisdered using a KFLOP from KMOTOIN, hooked to either MACH3 or KMOTIONS cnc program. If your not a "like to tweak and fidget guy" then I would avoid a retrofit like this. You will spend more time tweaking than machining. BUT you will get some "awesome" speeds comparatively. There is a guy on youtube with the KMOTION on his Fadal. He sold it and doesnt have a whole lot of information. Some of the off the shelf conversions are $20k+. At which point I do not believe it to be worth it.

Like mentioned before they are a heavy table box way machine....but with a fast control, ac servos (or your dc servos with encoders), you will see a significant improvment in speed. There is a video somewhere on here with someone that converted there fadal to I believe a Numatix control. Pulling numbers from the @$$ I seem to rememeber 500ipm cut, 1200ipm rapids.

[JR1050]

The cheapest way out would be to upgrade to the latest software release of the Fadal control and add memory,the dnc is killing you,as it can only read one block at a time.Using a program like Filtermax would help by converting all those small line segments to arcs.You will spend a ton of money retrofitting this machine unless you do it yourself,which will be a MAJOR undertaking. If you chose to go this route,it is hard to beat the Linuxcnc.

[datac]

H'mmm. Fadal. New Control......

After researching all that was available out there, it's certainly interesting what Dave of Fadal fame selected for the control when he set out to build those new "mini" machines....... FLASHCUT !
(great choice in my opinion!)

Fadal Vmc 15 to Flashcut CNC - YouTube

[JR1050]

You might wanna start pricing that flashcut control before you consider it....I dont think it is intended for controlling something the size of 4020....getting the table to move is the easy part.....

[datac]

I'd find getting the motors to move to actually be the more difficult part, only because you have to be rather selective when it comes to what drivers your going to drive the motors with.

If those other three are goiing to be brought up (The increasingly outdated Machx, LinuxCNC or even Kmotion, Flashcut is hands down a more developed and dependable platform.

LinuxCNC has immense capability primarily when used with 3rd party interface hardware, but in frank comparisons of specific functions, I would find some degree of limited functionality with it. The kind of "deal breaker" stuff that once your used to having, you really do not want to give it up.

I can not think of any one particular thing that Flashcut would not deliver even to that sized machine in comparison to the control it currently has. Function wise, it would likely be light years ahead.

[JR1050]

I have no experience with flashcut,so I cant really say and with my limited knowledge of it there are 3 things that come to mind.

1 It runs in windows and windows crashes

2 The hardware is expensive

3 It is not gonna be a plug and play on a Fadal.

I have done several lathe retro's with Linuxcnc ,big machines,and one with a Delta tau.I work on Fanuc controlled equipment everyday(occasionally a Yasnac) and Ive found the linux system to be the easiest to configure and trouble shoot.As an operating system Linux is more robust then windows,stable and when you get it down plain easier. The support from the Linux community is superb and like it or not,most of the pc based controls have borrowed heavily from the original EMC.

Retrofitting a bridge port is one thing,still a massive undertaking if you dont know what you are doing ,a machine with a toolchanger,hi low gear is another beast all together,even if it s simple as a Fadal(and fadals are simple)!!!

I still suggest updating the Fadal control and adding as much memory as possible.The main bottleneck is the dnc.My Fadal with the original control will cut surfaces at 60-100 inches a minute from memory, from the serial port about 20....

I will eventually replace the Fadal control with a Linux one as I have it down. It is a matter of what works for you.

[datac]

>>> 1 It runs in windows and windows crashes

That's kind of a cheap shot.... perhaps back in the win98 days..... Most will admit that XP has been more than stable for many years now. I'm IT for a small mail order company... "Windows" crashing really isn't a problem, but certainly BAD Programs or bad programming can be a problem. Some newer issues are coming up from software developers who are forced to play the MS "Game" as they try to keep XP, Win7 stuff working along side that newest nightmare called Windows8. Where MS thinks their "going", I have no clue !

In that I do have 4 LINUX servers running there and a MythTV box running 24/7 at home, you really do not want me to believe that Linux is always without issue, do you ? :-) I recall a few old PC's I had to wrestle with to install LCNC.

I've worked/retrofitted many, many machines with Flashcut since about 1998. Routers, mills, engravers, plasma... and finally a lathe. Any windows machine that is not suffering from any existing malady will run Flashcut wonderfully. Even with crappy windows 8.


>>>2 The hardware is expensive

Yes and no.... Depends on what you need and what "expensive" means to a person. You can purchase from them, just the software and signal generator portion and use that to command existing drivers. The thing about "existing drivers" is how inept are they in comparison to newer drivers and the electronic differences they offer. I know that there have been significant changes in the throughput, speed and smoothness on newer designs. That does not necessarily mean a person MUST have new drivers, at least to get operational. Motors are usually reusable too, as long as they were powerful enough from the beginning.

In that you can just buy the software and signal generator from them, a person certainly can search out drivers, motors and new power supply from any compatible source That can be rather frugal if you want a control you can turn on, and easily understand without much hand holding. Flashcut is probably the most user friendly control out there. On the other hand, some might call it frugal to buy more components from them right away. There is much to be said about bolting things on, plugging some wires in and being at a point of 70% operational. That last 30% comes down to dialing things in and creating whatever electrical interface and software macros a person needs to run some of the I/O like the tool changer.

Regardless, nothing is "inexpensive", but certainly overly expensive when you start looking at anything along the lines of "original" controls, drivers and motors.

>>>>3 It is not gonna be a plug and play on a Fadal.

I wish I knew what the drive and motor specs were for that machine. I think Flashcut PUBLISHES motors and drives up around 12amp and 3000oz, but I am sure they would be happy to help with higher powered needs. If the published stuff does come close, it would be close to a plug and play short of connecting existing I/O requirements. And, if it were true, neither would the other popular options mentioned come near to "plug and play".


>>> I have done several lathe retro's with Linuxcnc ,big machines,and one with a Delta tau.I work on Fanuc controlled equipment everyday(occasionally a Yasnac) and Ive found the linux system to be the easiest to configure and trouble shoot.As an operating system Linux is more robust then windows,stable and when you get it down plain easier. The support from the Linux community is superb and like it or not,most of the pc based controls have borrowed heavily from the original EMC.

Not going to argue any of that..... There are a lot of LCNC users, but there are also those who wont "get it down"..... That is the neat thing about Flashcut... once your wired, install the software on any decent old PC or Laptop (I run more and more with laptops these days), and your underway. Not much to "learn" for people, not hard to find anything either. With LCNC, there is more of a learning curve just to get operational, and with that, people also now need to also know a bit about the OS itself... not that its bad, just that its in addition and "different" than what a windows user is used to, especially if they have to explore even something simple like SAMBA in order to communicate with other windows PC's in their network.

>>>> Retrofitting a bridge port is one thing,still a massive undertaking if you dont know what you are doing ,a machine with a toolchanger,hi low gear is another beast all together,even if it s simple as a Fadal(and fadals are simple)!!!

Flashcut just added a really nice Bridgeport retrofit package. The online photo looks to be a nice smooth, not cludgy conversion. Regards tool changers, I was told that there would not be a changer configuration they could not address.....

>>> I still suggest updating the Fadal control and adding as much memory as possible.The main bottleneck is the dnc.My Fadal with the original control will cut surfaces at 60-100 inches a minute from memory, from the serial port about 20....

YIKES ! Old technologies !

>>> I will eventually replace the Fadal control with a Linux one as I have it down. It is a matter of what works for you.

You have that right !

[Drassk]

I conisdered using a KFLOP from KMOTOIN, hooked to either MACH3 or KMOTIONS cnc program. If your not a "like to tweak and fidget guy" then I would avoid a retrofit like this. You will spend more time tweaking than machining. BUT you will get some "awesome" speeds comparatively. There is a guy on youtube with the KMOTION on his Fadal. He sold it and doesnt have a whole lot of information.

I resemble that remark! That's my old machine on Youtube, just cookin' along. It was a 1994 with metric screws and DC motors. I'd say I have some information, at least, since I did do the retrofit. My new machine is also running a KFLOP, but it's a mid-90s industrial router (6000lbs vs 10500 for the Fadal) and the stock motors are underpowered so no amazing performance. That will change once I have time to install the HiWin linear motors I scored on eBay

There's no comparison between the KFLOP and lower-end controls like the Mach 3 sphere, Flashcut, or LCNC boxes without motion control cards. I think Dave's using an off the shelf kit like the Flashcut sort of alludes to what sunk Fadal- they never understood controls and bungled badly twice trying to DIY it while Haas succeeded at it. The KFLOP is the real deal, with proper hardware based motion control from G-code to loop- the PC is just there as a user interface and to upload G-code. It's in the same class as proper industrial controls like a Fanuc, a Delta Tau, the spiffy new Haas one, etc. Note how the KFLOP page lists the actual hardware loop specifications along with the motion control algorithm etc, rather than just what size box it fits in and that it comes in blue.

One of the main differences using the KFLOP VS Centroid and other higher end retros is that I reused all of the Fadal hardware, including drives and motors, so my retro cost me $500 flat. You can see in the video that cutting over 500IPM wasn't a problem. I never raised the rapids past 600IPM because I didn't want to beat on the old girl, but I did boost the acceleration to 3-4X the stock acceleration while maintaining a very tight following error. The actual cut time on complex work (say lots of tiny features at 120IPM) dropped considerably, like by half, due to the huge difference in actual average speed caused by the accel boost.

If you want to retro with a KFLOP, though, you're going to need to recruit a friend who knows what they're doing with a multimeter and an oscilloscope. Nothing hard on there, just a lot of tracing wires (and a lot of the answers are in the manual), but it's not a project I could have done alone. The developer of the KFLOP gives excellent support so long as you know enough to use it (basic electronics, how to trace a line, read a datasheet, and make things turn on and off with a wire and a few batteries).

I'm surprised someone hasn't taken up the mantle on retrofitting these with hardware like the KFLOP or Galil cards for a good price, maybe it's that Fadal owners are more reluctant to risk retros or something but the upside in performance is huge and one could make a nice living doing a bunch of these per year for a few thousand plus airfare. Once you know what you're doing, it's a 1-2 day job. I'd have considered it myself if I didn't hate traveling.

[ThatguyDave]

Yikes. That's pretty impressive. I'm very seriously considering a similar conversion to at least one of the Fadals lying around my shop. Did you ever manage to get full functionality out of the Fadal's tool changer?

I'm in the process of slowly retrofitting a knee mill with EMC2/Linuxcnc which is admirable for that sort of application but not really suitable for any sort of high speed machining application. I nearly dismissed the Dynomotion's offering because I've had bad experiences with high $$$$ windows based CNC wood routers and I've heard one too many nightmares about Mach 3. Dynomotion's Kflop and not some entity inside of windows performs the motion control so apparently the windows gremlins and limitations don't interfere with necessary computions that kinda cannot wait. They also apparently have there own interface program so Mach 3 isn't at all necessary. Interesting stuff. Dave

[hanermo]

Comments before are very good, and 100% correct afaik.
(I sold 65 + cnc machines (industrial, over 50k€ each) last year, and mach3 user before that since 2003).

However..
Mach3 with good motion control boards and good hw is another level altogether.
AS is LCNC.

LCNC is a good option, with some caveats. SO is M3.
Both are rock solid.

I am building a cnc surface/t&c grinder with M3.
Industrial quality.

Ie 35 MM linear guides, heavy (table is 300 kg), 0.2 micron resolution, 1 micron glass scales for cmm functions, ac brushless servos (9 of), 32 mm ballscrews (7-9 of), 600 kg force on ways, etc

Anything can be done.
Mach3 has some quirky problems and some hard problems.
Otoh, its very easy, flexible, and with the right hw, can do amazing things.
I need high end (by hobby stds) hw to make things run.

I will use a Centipede board, and get better than 1 micron resolution/repetability.
Otoh, my hw costs are about 6x a 9x lathe with dro.
BUT my hw costs are about 40x less than a comparable T&C grinder.
This is an *industrial* grinder, not hobby. Industrial stuff is expected to run 24x7 for 10 years, in coolant and swarf rain.
Mine will.

I could use LCNC to do it.
It would be harder, take longer, and give a somewhat more flexible end result, with other different problems.

Both are good options. Both have drawbacks. LCNC is likely to get much better, if some options get much easier to use.
Otoh, is and good hw on M3 may make it by far the "better" choice.

Please note I speak of 1 micron as a long time industrial user and seller.
This is high end territory.

And I did not say 1 micron accuracy. Resolution. "I" can use it to make a small piece with 2 micron accuracy.

[cousinitt]

Before I spent a lot of money on a retrofit, I would look into just upgrading the control.
If you went to a Dash 5 CPU and a later version than 1990 operating software you could
Speed things considerably. With the DASH 5 CPU you could bump your baud rate up to
115Kbps if you have good communication lines and don't loose bits during DNC. 38.4Kbps
is realistic for DNC'ing. Does you machine buffer code and wait on the DNC? If it does
A dash 5 cpu would improve your cycle time a bunch. I serviced these machine for the
local distributor. They are a work horse. If you can find one you could go to what they call
the Super CPU . I don't know what they cost new but they are like Ricky Bobby
"They go Real Fast"

Itt

[sdfoiler]

Yes, I looked into that route also (upgrading to -5). Unfortunately I would have to replace pretty much every board since mine has the earlier generation boards for everything. So we are still talking a $8K + upgrade unless someone knows of a better way to get these cards and upgrade to -5.

Bryan

[cousinitt]

You can replace the -5 CPU and the Computer Interface and increase your baud rates. I know at 9600 it is really slow for DNC.

Go to

FADAL 1400 Boards by one of the Originators of FADAL VMCs

for -5 CPU

and

FADAL 1030 Boards by one of the Originators of FADAL VMCs

for computer interface that should speed you baud rate up

Itt

[sdfoiler]

Thanks for all the info guys! It is greatly appreciated! At this time, I think I'm just going to take my controller from a -2 to a -5 and add a bunch of memory (in Fadal terms). Hopefully that will get me by for awhile. Still not cheap, but at least cheaper than a whole retrofit and hopefully not as much down time.

I'll start a new thread about the parameters I will need to record before doing the swap of all the cards.

Thanks again!

[carbidecraters]

If done right will be in the $4-5K range with new 1010-4 boards at a minimum if needed. Without new 1010-4 boards the price should be around $3K. You will need mill interface, the right keyboard interface card -6, The right software board 103.5 ver. and the memory and the -5CPU. There may be others that are required call in to see what exactly you need they should ask you numbers off every board.

- - - Updated - - -

If you go with MAch 3 you will find there isnt a good strong servo option. Fadal had very strong servo motors and drives which dont work with MAch3.

[sdfoiler]

Just thought I'd update this thread in case anyone else ever wants to do this.

I moved from a -2 to a -5 system with 8Mb of mem. These are the boards which needed to be replaced:
PCB 0217 1010-6g Axis Control
PCB 0217 1010-6g Axis Control
PCB 0217 1010-6g Axis Control
1010-5a Axis Control
PCB 0189 1730-5 Bus Port
1610-1 PCB Prog Mod
PCB 0012 1090-3b Keyboard interface
PCB 0238 1030 Rev e Computer Interface
1400-5c CPU Board
PCB 0043 1460-4b Memory Board
1420-4a Video Board

I think it took longer to unbox all the cards than it did to install them. There really wasn't anything major to watch out for but here's a few minor things:

1.) Make sure the Axis cards are in the right slot. The new cards are jumpered for x, y, and z - and need to go in the proper slot.
2.) The 1730 bus card connects 3 of the cards on a different bus. The 1730 is labeled for what card needs to go where so just need to make sure the cards are in the correct slot for the 1730 to connect all of them together.
3.) Once everything is operational, the memory has to be re-zero'd with the DI and g0 3000 command. Unfortunately my DI command was locked out with the new software so I had to get the access code from fadalvmcparts which they provided to me even on the weekend.
4.) You will need a new rs232 cable to connect to the card. The old card had a 26 pin connector - the new card has a 16 pin connector. Had to order that after the fact since I didn't know I needed that.

I haven't had a chance to actually cut anything yet since I do pretty much everything by DNC, but it's nice to have a little newer interface - and the new baud rates will be a very welcomed upgrade! Working on some more mods to the machine which will hopefully be finished in the next few weeks so that thing can get back to work. With the newer video card, I can now use a standard LCD TV with a video input. The old video card would lose the last line on the screen when using a LCD tv which wouldn't let me see what I was typing. Now I'm using a nice large cheap tv for a display. All I needed was a bnc to rca connector ($3)

Thanks to everyone for their help!