[Wooden Payload]

Hey all,

I am currently searching for a Haas VMC for my company. I am mainly looking at the VF-6 because the travels are about right for what I am going to be doing (mainly composites molds out of tooling board and Aluminum). I'd like to get a high(er) speed spindle, 10K RPM if possible, and get 4th axis drive, etc.

I have been looking at tons of machines over the last 2 weeks and have found that the newer machines (2006 to present) are close to or slightly above $100k in price. I'm looking at these because of USB, updated controller, lower hours, etc. I recently went to my local dealer and got a quote and they came in at $125K to get a shiny new machine sitting in my warehouse, which makes me think it's a no brainer to get a brand new machine if the other option costs $100K.

On the other hand, I have been looking at older machines (mid-late 90s) and they are going for around $60K. So it's got me wondering if going for a newer machine is worth the $60K I could be spending on something else.

A little bit about the company: we are a small engineering firm that does prototype work including a lot of composites work. We are using a CNC router to cut molds out of renshape tooling board right now, and it is just not hacking it. We will be working on more and more larger projects so we'd like to get a large VMC to have a tool changer and the ability to machine molds in a reasonable amount of time.

So, is it worth it to spend the money to get a new machine that I know is perfect with a 1 year warranty and free training? Or do I go for a older machine for half the price with no support and no idea what kind of condition the machine is actually in?

Thanks in advance!

[quapman]

That's a tough call, but I'll tell you the two VF-2's that our company has are 20 years old and still kicking. As far as I know, the only major issues they've had are to replace the Z ball screw and oil line junction blocks one the newer machine and Both have had the CRTs replaced at least once.

[underthetire]

Think about the tax incentives with a new one, might end up closing that 60k gap some. And the newer controls/axis motors seem to be better at faster contouring than the old ones.

[Matt@RFR]

I do some programming for another shop, and he's got a 2001 with SMTC and a 1998 VF-2. I run an '07 VF-2ss. I'm amazed at how much I have to back off my normal cutting parameters so his machines are happy. For example, I engrave aluminum at 40 IPM. His '98 won't go any faster than 8 IPM before letters start to get elongated. HSM tool paths work well on his, but man does that '98 shudder a lot. Cutting molds? I wouldn't even consider anything older than mine.

Also look in to an SS model. Much faster, and the finishes I get off of mine are just fine.

I'm looking like I may be in the market for a second machine. When the time comes, I'll be looking for '07 to '09 models. There's been a fair amount of bad feedback on the 2010 and up machines, like Haas QC is going down hill. A lot of guys don't like the new controls as much either, but that's just nit picking for the most part.

[JohnJW]

One of the things I noticed with Haas is that they will update their controller from time to time. They don't announce it and the detail controller specs is not on any of their brochures. A newer VF-6 will probably run faster than an older VF-6. Maybe someone with different vintage hass can let us know how they differ in performance.

[Geof]

For what you are doing have you considered the Haas Gantry Router; they call them a Router but they are really a very big vertical milling machine. I haven't done 3D contouring but on complex 2d profiles they are more or less indistinguishable from a VMC. The Haas specs say they have +/-0.001" repeatability but my experience is they are a bit better than than.

For machining Renshape you don't need the rigidity of a full blown VMC and when you figure out the axis travel per dollar you get more travel out of the Gantry Router.

[Machineit]

For example, I engrave aluminum at 40 IPM. His '98 won't go any faster than 8 IPM before letters start to get elongated.

Wow, I guess I'm lucky, I can engrave on my old 96 at 8.3482 IPM. Seriously? If that is in fact what actually happens, then that machines ball screws, etc are completely worn out or the parameters are not set correctly.

How about you get honest and real, you don't live in Paradise, you live in Fantasy Land.

[Matt@RFR]

Wow, I guess I'm lucky, I can engrave on my old 96 at 8.3482 IPM. Seriously? If that is in fact what actually happens, then that machines ball screws, etc are completely worn out or the parameters are not set correctly.

I don't doubt it, since he also says it won't cut round circles anymore either. How bad it really is, I don't know, but he keeps using it. I'm curious, how fast can you feed your '96 before you see features go out of round or whatever? Have you replaced any major components like screws / nuts, etc.? I'm just wondering how bad the '98 I mentioned really is, and if it is beyond what the majority of used machines in that vintage are like.

How about you get honest and real, you don't live in Paradise, you live in Fantasy Land.

Damn, that's what my wife says too.

[Machineit]

I don't doubt it, since he also says it won't cut round circles anymore either. How bad it really is, I don't know, but he keeps using it. I'm curious, how fast can you feed your '96 before you see features go out of round or whatever? Have you replaced any major components like screws / nuts, etc.? I'm just wondering how bad the '98 I mentioned really is, and if it is beyond what the majority of used machines in that vintage are like.

Damn, that's what my wife says too.

I recently did some 3D machining on some aluminum custom hubcaps. I could go 100 IPM, but if I went faster I got a few gouges. But, that is from old software that does not have a lot of look ahead on the blocks of code, not from being sloppy. The code was only about .001 or .002 per move and pages flashed by like a bad trip.

My 96 makes near perfect circles, (within .0002"). Old but still running like a top.

I have never lived in Paradise or Fantasy Land, but I lived in Anaheim for about 9 years right close to Disney Land,(watched the fireworks each night). I as only about one mile, as the crow flies from Fantasy Land.

Honesty, just sounds like that 98 needs some new ball screws. If I were him, I'd get them replaced, not that much money and will probably make the machine run like new. I had a 98 VF-4 that I loved. Would love another one.

Good luck and have a great Independence Day!!

Mike