[mhackney]

Thanks Ian, I would like to check the dovetail angles. Your comment "You can test the angles of the dovetail in the base part and the dovetail in the saddle by removing the gib and applying blue to the saddle sliding face......then slide the saddle dovetail against the base dovetail (without the gib in) and it will show if the two angle are exactly the same."

Doesn't make sense to me though. If you take the gib out, what keeps the saddle parallel to the Y axis movement? In other words, if the taper is different on each part, this method will not detect that, if the tapers are the same it would detect the dovetail angle but does that matter compared to the taper angle? With unmatched tapers, the saddle/gib would wedge and bind. With unmatched dovetail angles, the scraping should correct that - or so I thought.

cheers,
Michael

[mhackney]

Well, I think I have it! First I lapped the milled face of the taper on a diamond stone to get it flat. Then I ground a scraper edge on a Nicholson file I had laying around. It is about 3/4" wide by 5/32" thick at the tip and 12" long plus a wooden handle. I ground a 4" radius curve and then a 5° relief as I saw on youtube. I did hone it lightly with a very fine diamond hone.

I then coated the dovetail on the base with Dykem, positioned the saddle and inserted the gib. Once seated I pulled it out and sure enough, the thin end was coated with indicator as I suspected. I could tell that the thick end was not seating and could wiggle when the thin end was in all the way. I clamp to my bench with 3 screws for stops for the far end and "had at it". It is a surprisingly light touch to scrape. I scraped the high area, cleaned, stoned and cleaned again and then reinserted. It took 5 scrapes to start getting the taper to seat further and further in the dovetail. But I was finally able to get the taper pretty good. I was surprised. Even though it looks like crap due to the scraper (it still had remnants of the file teeth) but it did a good enough bob to scrape the taper in. I then did a "finsih" pass over the entire surface and reindicated in the dovetail. I had a few high spots. I had to do this process at least 8 times before I started getting a reasonably uniform pattern of indicator. But I could immediately tell how much smoother the gib inserted, it just felt "right". This was about a 3 hour process. I'm beat so I cleaned up for the evening. Glad I wore gloves, that indicator gets on everything. Hardened steel file was fine to scrape cast iron, carbide not needed. And it was easy to sharpen on my grind stones, whereas I don't have the proper wheel for carbide.

Tomorrow I'll cut the gib to length, mill the notch and fit it up on the mill. Should be an interesting time!

cheers,
Michael

[hoss2006]

Good work! Tomorrow grizzly will call you and say they found a box that was mislabeled and can send the correct Y gib strips now.
Hoss

[handlewanker]

Hi......bloody good work old bean......now you are getting the experience to work on your slides as and when needed.

Making the scraper from the file was also a good idea.....I made my scraper from a 14" single cut file and heated the end to red heat to forge it out thinner and wider.

A scraper is sharpened on the end, not the face, and you hold it vertically on the stone, canted over slightly at an angle to one side while you slide it forward and back.

The end therefore needs to be only very thin with a large radius across it's face......too small a radius and you risk digging grooves in the job.....4" radius (8"diam) is about the minimum radius for scraping broad flat surfaces.....mine is 2mm thick, and this allows rapid sharpening without wearing the stone away.

You also NEVER sharpen a scraper on a grind stone......a good honing stone lubed with kerosene works better.

The end also has two flats across its face and as you sharpen the end you slightly cant the scraper over at about 5 degrees which will give you two sharp edges

A scraper is like a brain surgeon's scalpel....it can take off as little as hundredths of a thou, provided you keep it sharp and never attempt to scrape when the edges get blunt or you'll just rub hard spots, especially so on cast iron.

When you cut the slot in the gib for the adjusting screw head, make sure it is a good fit otherwise the gib will migrate back and forth in the slide.

To prevent this happening, many machine designers have the gib with an L shaped end that has a hole for the adjusting screw.......there are two lock nuts on either side of the hole, instead of just a headed screw in the slot, and this ensures the gib can be set firmly in position.

I would also check the dovetails in the base with a roller and micrometer, if you have one that big, to make sure they are truly parallel, otherwise no amount of adjusting with the gib will make the slide work.

[mhackney]

LOL, you know it!

Good work! Tomorrow grizzly will call you and say they found a box that was mislabeled and can send the correct Y gib strips now.
Hoss

[mhackney]

handlewanker, I did use a very fine grinding wheel to shape the profile on the end of the file but did sharpen it on the end. It is a bit thicker than what you describe. I think I'll break out the forge later today and and then it out a bit, shape and heat treat. I'd like to practice this a bit more on the other piece and original gib just to learn a bit more. It was actually a fun process and I can see why guys take classes to learn how to do it! I'l hone the forged tool with my stones and kerosene - that's how I hone my antique hand plane irons and chisels. I've done a lot of scraping wood (instead of sanding) and in that process a thin scraper has a raised burr edge on it to cut. It took quite a while to learn to raise that burr properly and consistently. The "trick" in most of these techniques is getting the tool sharpened properly. In this case, I think I understand your sharpening description and I think that's how I did it! Here's a drawing:

Attachment 244818

This is looking at the side of the tool. Does this make sense?

In the case of the G0704 gibs, they are held in place by large head screws at each end. That keeps them in position so they don't move laterally. You can adjust the gib by screwing in one end and loosening the other end.

Cheers,
Michael

[Fastest1]

If I am understanding Ian correctly, he is implying besides the gib placement screws, there are locknuts or set screws binding on the placement screws. I use the word "placement" screws because they are for locating the gib. If they are tightened in opposition as intended they will bow the gib unless the fit is perfect.

Again if I am understanding Ian correctly, plenty of room for error there ;-)

[mhackney]

That would make sense Fastest1. We G0704 owners, of course, use locktite to hold those adjustment screws in place since we don't have locknuts or grub screws.

[handlewanker]

Hi, on the topic of the scraper, the drawing you posted shows a 5 deg angle.....I advocated two 5 deg angles to give 4 cutting edges.......that happens when you hold the scraper vertical with the left hand holding the handle and the right hand fore finger and thumb grasping the blade at the bottom onto the oil stone.......the action is a back and forth rocking motion with the scraper tilted over at the 5 deg angle.

You get 4 cutting edges......two per side as you only use half of the curved face of the scraper when scraping.......and you always cut at 45 deg across the previous scrape pattern alternately......this will prevent digging hollows in the workpiece.

It's only when you come to sharpen the scraper that you appreciate the thinness of the end, otherwise you will rub a groove in the stone trying to wear the excess metal away.......I also only sharpen scrapers on the side of the stone to prevent damaging the stone face which is used also for honing plane irons.

The scraper should (must) be held always at a shallow angle to the work surface and at an angle of 45 deg to the forward motion otherwise you dig grooves in the workpiece.....when it gets blunt you tend to increase the scaper angle to the workpiece to make it bite, which is a false application as you make hollows and only makes resharpening a tedious job due to the edge being worn too much.

The end curve is extremely important.......a large radius for flat surface metal removal and a small radius for forming oil pockets and decorative frosting work.

I always resharpen the scraper lightly after a dozen scrape passes and it stays keen all the time.

The gib I mentioned, with the L shaped end, has a stud inserted into the machine body, and the L end of the jib with the hole is locked onto this stud by nature of the two lock nuts, one either side of it.....one moves it back or forth and the other locks it.

Actually, a headed screw each end will also work just as well as the screws only need to be snugged up against the gib to stop it moving endwise.

BTW, I also use a flat scraper for wood by using a 2" wide HSS power hack saw blade, and as it's already glass hard on the end it scapes a fine layer on each pass without making fuzz on the wood.

If you think sharpening a high carbon steel scraper with a glass hard end is tedious, don't even think that a carbide end will make it last longer.......sharpening a carbide ended scraper is difficult, but a diamond wheel (not a green grit one) on your bench grinder with an inclined table can be a boon.
Ian.

[paul3112]

handlewanker, I did use a very fine grinding wheel to shape the profile on the end of the file but did sharpen it on the end. It is a bit thicker than what you describe. I think I'll break out the forge later today and and then it out a bit, shape and heat treat. I'd like to practice this a bit more on the other piece and original gib just to learn a bit more. It was actually a fun process and I can see why guys take classes to learn how to do it! I'l hone the forged tool with my stones and kerosene - that's how I hone my antique hand plane irons and chisels. I've done a lot of scraping wood (instead of sanding) and in that process a thin scraper has a raised burr edge on it to cut. It took quite a while to learn to raise that burr properly and consistently. The "trick" in most of these techniques is getting the tool sharpened properly. In this case, I think I understand your sharpening description and I think that's how I did it! Here's a drawing:

Attachment 244818

This is looking at the side of the tool. Does this make sense?

In the case of the G0704 gibs, they are held in place by large head screws at each end. That keeps them in position so they don't move laterally. You can adjust the gib by screwing in one end and loosening the other end.

Cheers,
Michael

Hi
I still have a scraper that my dad made. He took an old file and surface ground off all the teeth. Then did the end scrapping detail. The angle he adjusted to my height and the bench that we used.
This chap mentions it in his aricle on files USING FILES

Paul

[mhackney]

I got everything back together one axis at a time. Starting with the problematic Y. I cut my gib to length, milled the notch for the screw head and the hole for my oiling system and then fit it in the way. I then carefully adjusted the saddle slide to be smooth with no slop. It took a bit of tweaking but I'm down to about .003" backlash. Most certainly the issue is "sticktion". The gib is very sensitive to the adjustment screws. If I tweak even a 32nd of a turn tighter my backlash jumps up to .007". I also noticed that when this happens, if I push the table in the direction of the "stick" it will move and recover about .005" of that slop. I did measure the end of the ballscrew for axial movement and there is none. There is also no movement of the ballnut mount. And, I can see the ballscrew turn 1 click at a time when I jog .001". I think this is about as good as I'm going to get and it should be fine to get me through this batch of reels I have to make.

The X axis was easier to adjust, again very light tension from the adjustment screws did the trick.

Both ball nuts were packed with oversized bearings and are smooth but tight. Probably the best ballnut-ballscrew fit I've experienced on all my machines.

And Grizzly did call back "that's the way they are - provided thicker and longer so you have to thin them down by grinding and then fit to your machine"

regards,
Michael

[mhackney]

An update, I've been making a lot of parts for reel kits for my workshop coming up in the Catskills next weekend. The mill is working better than it has ever worked before! These are the best parts I've made, the backlash - in motion - must be very small because I do not see any artifacts at the cross-over points on the circular pockets and perimeters I'm milling. I've always seen a little artifact at these points and even the parts I've had a couple of shops test cuts for me have some evidence. The circular pockets are nearly dead on, not more than .001" out of round.

Cheers,
Michael

[gd.marsh]

Great news Michael,

Congratulations, I've been following your on-going battle with the 'backlash gremlins' as you've worked your way through it.

Looks like it's time for some maintenance on my machine again.
Just ran a few parts yesterday that are showing signs of a little X axis backlash coming back around to haunt me.
Good thing this is a hobby for me!

gd.marsh

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Michael,

Glad to hear you finally got it sorted out. What was the problem?

Regards,
Ray L.

[paul3112]

An update, I've been making a lot of parts for reel kits for my workshop coming up in the Catskills next weekend. The mill is working better than it has ever worked before! These are the best parts I've made, the backlash - in motion - must be very small because I do not see any artifacts at the cross-over points on the circular pockets and perimeters I'm milling. I've always seen a little artifact at these points and even the parts I've had a couple of shops test cuts for me have some evidence. The circular pockets are nearly dead on, not more than .001" out of round.

Cheers,
Michael

I had to search for a while , but I found a local suplier for way/guide oil. The oil is recommended in my lathe manual. Shell Tonna. It made a noticable difference .

[mhackney]

Thanks guys. Ray, I think it was what you suggested, backlash is less in motion than measuring the way I was statically. I measured the IDs of the 2-1/4" rings and they are really spot on, I couldn't be happier.

Thanks for the oil link. I milled oil paths and put in an automatic oiling system following Hoss' lead. I forget what oil he used but it is a very light single weight oil. I'm able to keep my ways and ballscrews well lubed now.

cheers,
Michael

[wizard]

Glad to hear that the mill is running better. Mechanical fit up is critical to keeping a machine tool running well. That is why I cringe or worst when I hear people talk about randomly lapping the ways. It is certainly an art form as much as it is a mechanical skill.

An update, I've been making a lot of parts for reel kits for my workshop coming up in the Catskills next weekend. The mill is working better than it has ever worked before! These are the best parts I've made, the backlash - in motion - must be very small because I do not see any artifacts at the cross-over points on the circular pockets and perimeters I'm milling. I've always seen a little artifact at these points and even the parts I've had a couple of shops test cuts for me have some evidence. The circular pockets are nearly dead on, not more than .001" out of round.

Cheers,
Michael

That is really good performance out of one of these small mills without putting in a lot of work!

[wizard]

Thanks guys. Ray, I think it was what you suggested, backlash is less in motion than measuring the way I was statically. I measured the IDs of the 2-1/4" rings and they are really spot on, I couldn't be happier.

There will always be some difference between static and dynamic behavior.

Thanks for the oil link. I milled oil paths and put in an automatic oiling system following Hoss' lead. I forget what oil he used but it is a very light single weight oil. I'm able to keep my ways and ballscrews well lubed now.

cheers,
Michael

Mobile Vactra is the classical way lube! Good stuff to use on plain castiron bearings. Order a gallon and it should last you decades.

Just for the curious decades ago I did a lot of work on diamond turning lathes. These where small machines. I asked the engineer responsible for the design why everything was so heavy or massive considering the size of the lathe and process. His explanation was that the weight helped the oil work properly. Take that explanation anyway you want but I would have never of considered that the probable explanation.

[mhackney]

Things are going great. My workshop was a great success. The G0704 did a superb job cutting the parts - the best I've made to date. That Y gib must have been a problem since day 1. Now, with minimal backlash, my circular parts are perfect with no trace of backlash induced defects.

Now that I'm out of the woods and due to the great interest this new reel design got at the show, I've finally decided that I have the chops to produce limited production runs of my own fly reel designs. I am making all new fixturing to take advantage of the increased Y travel I now have. This will quadruple my throughput of a single run. Stock clamping and removal is a significant time overhead so this will significantly save on time and labor. But before I get started on that I am finally going to button up the loose ends. I've been running my spindle controller in a plastic shoe box! It's time to mount that permanently, install my C6 spindle control board with a manual-CNC selector switch, complete my tach mod to read RPMs to a display. Should get this done over the weekend.

cheers,
Michael

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Michael,

Sounds like a giant step forward! Congrats!

Regards,
Ray L.