[borrisl]

I've experienced success by diving in (falling in more or less). However, in completely different fields. That's what is so wonderful about this forum. I’m able to pick the brains of the machine shop affluent.

The customers have shown me all their most recent invoices. They want me to be able "come close."

Experience is little, true, I do have drive though! I own an automotive repair business with 3,000 sq/ft of empty space and three phase power calling to me.

I know 3d modeling quite well.
Fairly good at CAM
Ok at manual code
Ok at fixture design

On machine cost: I've negotiated with the manufacturers / dealers. You would be slapped sideways if you knew the markups. They are expensive though. Very.

Where would be a good place to start then? Making the one off proto-types seems like more difficult work then mass production? Designing a fixture for 200 isn't much more than 1?

My biggest problem is that I have 5 children, a business, and a farm. That in itself isn’t an issue. There exists no CNC equipped shops within 120 miles. The option of working for one of these shops is almost impossible with my current responsibilities. My solution for pursuing my hopes of owning a production shop seemed simple by jumping in with both feet? It just appeared wasteful to invest in 10k of machinery just to outgrow it a short period of time. I don't want to fill the shop with non-professional tools; I’ve experienced pure frustration with this route. What normally happens is the shop fills up with tools. Most of which don’t get used.

This is good though. Hit me. Tell me where some of the bumps could be? There is a need. I’d like to be able to fill the need, but not stumble down the stairs, breaking my neck in the process.

One thing in my corner. I have a business and farm that pay my overhead. The CNC machines are just a love.

[braidmeister]

Very good points made in this thread...Plus a 'scary' situation. Personally, I would NOT take on that job without having A) Equipment or B) High proficiency running it for at least a year.

I was going to chime in at the beginning of this thread and mention that simply buying equipment is absolutely NO gaurantee that you are going to make money. In fact, not to be all doom & gloom, but...MANY CNCs that are sold sit on a production floor waiting to be rolled out or implemented until they stop making parts for them or become obsolete...seriously, this happens a lot! For some of us smaller shops, this is a ridiculous thought, but I have personally gone out to companies to setup 5yr old 'new' & never run CNCs & provide training on them!

Not mentioned so far is the fact that you HAVE TO LOVE WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING!!! Without that creative spark, DESIRE and drive to eat, sleep & poop your work, it's just a job and you will be destined to fail. Again, not to be all doom & gloom, but that's the reality. When you do what you love, it's like getting paid to play & you don't mind the long hours because you are playing!

So...that being said, find a niche. Service industries that you find appealing or work in materials that you like working in. Not sure if you have a staff, but a one man band cranking out nearly 6,000 widgets (that must be on spec) while thinking about the NEXT job, can be a real handful if you are not hungry enough...You guys that cut your teeth building yourself up in your own shop know what I am talking about.

-Brady

[NC Cams]

Sure. Here's a few do's, don'ts and bumps:

1. The machine you buy has to run
2. It has to make parts accurately
3. 1 & 2 have to happen AT YOUR shop in a real environment.
4. 3 has to happen reliably and repeatably.
5. 4 won't happen by accident.
6. Something on a used machine will malfunction to prevent 4.
7. Business environments inevitably change (gas, rent, expenses, material price changes but selling price can't).
8. Middle East is a powder keg with guys getting messages from their god (or GOD) telling them that infidels (you & me) must die.
9. In light of 8, 7 will occur and oops, see 6.
10. The customer and the bank don't put "get ouf of jail free cards" in their P/O's to account for 6,8,9 so they will have to be paid irrespective of all else.
11. God forbid, wife or kids will get sick or hurt.
12. If you could "see" the remedies for 1 thru 11, you wouldn't need to buy/run the CNC whatever as you'd be independantly wealthy from visionary investments in stock market.

Seriously, the guys who succed in business MANAGE all of the above issues wisely and the operative word is MANAGE.

They buy good equipment, or they know how to get the best out of what the have/can afford to buy.

They now how to cut corners to save costs or avoid costs. They know how to source material, machine effectively, make cost down suggestions, politic, schmooze customers.

They and family don't have health problems and occasionaly win the lottery.

An in spite of doing all that, they have time for wife and 5 kids while living 125 miles from everywhere else.

If you want to supply NASCAR teams, you SHOULD be in Charlotte NC. We do but we're in S/E Michigan. We're good at what we do but people don't break down the door to give us business. We struggle, make ends meet, barely and have good time doing what we do and and the bills are barely paid. Sound similar??? Been struggling at doing it as side job for 5-6 years before losing real job and doing side job full time.

You're asking for questions that answeres can't be given to because we don't have all the answers you need. The guys who do have them would ultimatey make money making good parts affordably that meet your clients needs.

Is this clear yet???

Hope so because I haven't figured it out yet and my friends consider what I do to be a success - but they make way more money than I do collecting a paycheck and way better benefits from OEM car companies.

When if you get an answer, PM me, I need the answers yee seek, too

[dertsap]

youve picked the best time to get into this , there is tons of work out there to be had , ive seen a good number of companies subbing work out to the competition just to keep the customers happy , most companies are beyond their capacity , be it a lack of machines or machinists , i know of a number of companies with machines sitting because of the lack of machinists ,others are buying more machines to keep up , , most companies around here are desparate for skilled people ,the work load is heavy,
its no longer a matter of getting the work in the door ,its how to get it out the door faster!!!
mind you i do know of a couple of companies who are slow here , but then ,
they deserved that

[borrisl]

Same story here in Oregon. I called a bunch of them to see if they would give me a tour, show me around. (I would have to spend a few weeks traveling the state to do this). All of them turned me down because of claims of being behind and heavy work loads. The really large CNC shops were running 3 shifts 24/7.

[ataxy]

i dont know if its the same all over the place bur here there is a lack of new machinist coming from school babyboomer are slowly retiring but nobody is there to replace them

[Geof]

...The customers have shown me all their most recent invoices. They want me to be able "come close."......

Be very careful with this kind of deal. I knew a guy setting up a small shop and he had one of these 'customers' (one of the big truck manufacturing companies). They asked him to "come close", then closer and closer and then the deal fell through. He sold off all the machines he had bought and disappeared. Funny thing was a few months later I went to look at a used mill for sale. This guy gave me his story; he had been dealing with the same 'customer' and again his close wasn't close enough. Obviously there was at least a third guy somewhere. If you are the 'third' guy good luck but you don't want to be one or two.

[NC Cams]

Sears was supposedly well versed at price rationalization via the introduction of "competitive bids". However, the auto industry really raised it to a new level of ruthlessness.

A guy with capacity doesn't need to make a "profit" on the part he sells to make a buck. Has to do with fixed versus variable profits which I don't understand totally but goes something like this:

Essentially, the machine costs you so much per hour - working or not - to keep on your floor (fixed cost of heat, brick/mortar, machine payment, maintenance).

Your variable cost (electicity to run and warm body) is the only adder that you have to cover over and above what its costing you to sit there.

Again, simple to make this easy to understand.

So, If you break even on the material or make 3%-5% mark-up, all you have to do is make enough to cover your fixed costs (as distributed on a 24-7-365 basis, not as figured on the 5 or 6 8's) and the cost of the body, you've broken even on what would have been a loss.

Although you don't make any money per se on the "give away" job, you did recover what would have been unrecovered expense on the prior unrecoverable fixed costs. Thus, your "profitable" jobs become even more profitable as you cut/reduced the fixed cost expense on them.

Now, as a guy who's gotten a new machine and struggling to make ends meet at a higher 5 @ 8's fixed cost, you can't compete with the guy with capacity if he chooses to play the "give it away" game with you.

The "get closer" is done to entice you to come in and play, hopefuly with a lower competing quote, to "whipsaw" the price down from the guy who already has the business.

GM's former Purchasing Guru Lopez really did this tactic well and got it entrenched into the auto industry. You'll note that many of the former automotive suppliers (huge ones who were quite profitable at one time) are now facing bankruptcy if not in it already. Sadly, they played the game and lost.

You might be in a position to make a profit. However, you might also be an unwitting pawn for the classic "whipsaw ploy" that has NO rewards when/if you finally get your hands on the mirage.

Be careful what you wish for, your wishes may come true....

[borrisl]

Over the last 2 weeks I’ve had the privilege of touring two CNC shops. One was a small, 4 VMCs. The other was a larger shop with 35 VMCs.

I have to say. However they are doing it, they are doing a GREAT job! I wouldn’t say “racking it in”, but pretty darn close to it. Both were so busy they could hardly breathe, and expanding.

The whole experience was one of intimidation. I’m looking at starting off with one VMC and a CNC lathe. It makes me feel a little insignificant. Not just only on the knowledge and talent side. So I’m off for Taiwan in a few weeks to inspect some manufactures there.

Most of the advice posted I have carefully weighed. Some of it even kept me up at night. This decision has me spinning, and in somewhat emotional turmoil. It is however, reaching a conclusion. I have surmised that it may be risky, and somewhat dangerous to my family’s’ emotional well-being. What self entrepreneur hasn’t traveled this path? Reward is a direct relation to risk. Although most people equate reward and success to money, I find the greatest rewards in happiness. It can also be argued that wealth is a component of happiness. Who knows! I do know that although I’m not gifted in machining, nor am I experienced, I still enjoy the art. It is not an easy option for me to have gainful employment in the field. So, at this point I have concluded to purchase several large pieces of new, high quality, professional equipment and work towards kicking some major butt!

I do need some advice on what to start off with. My “potential” customers are broad in scope. One is a plastics company expanding into injection molding. They would require “fairly” small injection mold pieces. The other customer is an exhaust system manufacturer. I would be making exhaust mating pieces. Another potential is that my automotive parts store is expanding and becoming a larger player in the market. I could manufacture a variety of automotive parts for retail in my own stores, and others in the state.

4th axis?
12,000 rpm spindle?
Coolant through spindle?
Tooling?
Chip conveyer?
Etc….

So what would you start off with, equipment wise?

Thank you very much for your time and knowledge.

[dertsap]

if your in automotive part sales , have you thought of custom wheels ,
with motorcycle wheels you can buy premachined blanks fairly cheap that are waiting for the magic to be done on them , i m not sure if the same is done for autos though i can t see why not
nice wheels go for a good price , and one off original sets will be more

4th axis? OH YA
12,000 rpm spindle? GOOD CHOICE
Coolant through spindle? DEFINITLY for high speeds and feeds
Chip conveyer? BEATS SHOVELING
Etc…. YEP

[brent1]

forget the machines,invest in real estate they don't make it in china

[dertsap]

forget the machines,invest in real estate they don't make it in china

if youve been paying attention ,im sure that you must be aware of the real estate the chinese are buying up in north america as well as all over the world , and it isn t houses

[borrisl]

Investing in real estate doesn't do much for the national economy. Let's start making some products we can export and do something about our enormously large trade deficit.

[Geof]

Investing in real estate doesn't do much for the national economy. Let's start making some products we can export and do something about our enormously large trade deficit.

The United States does make a lot of products for export and always has, but it is a Catch 22; one of the biggest, if not the biggest category, of US export products is machinery and equipment used for manufacturing. And a lot of it goes to countries that use it and their low domestic labour rates to make cheap consumer goods which are then imported into the US.

[NC Cams]

Good idea. Start making something here for export. Lets do some math:

At current interest rates, what is a lease or interest payment goint to be on a 5 year buy on a $100K CNC whatever???

Try to get an interest free load to buy the capital equipment needed to start/run a business.

Compare that to a Chinese government sponsored/purchased IDENTICAL machine that will be run by a $5 per day operator who just may have a college education, again at state sponsored costs. Lower fixed and lower variable costs result in unfair competition, especaily in light of the fact that they also have NO benfits nor any health care for their employees.

Someone gets hurt, theres more where that one came from, NEXT!!!!.

When I was in the bearing industry, China was getting started at the automotive OEM level. We were making super special 6203's for various power steering pumps, alternators and electric power steering applications. The Chinese bearings were of darn near comparable qualty and about 1/3 the selling price of ours - their selling price was at or near our manufacturing cost.

You are NOT going to compete with stuff being GIVEN AWAY so as to gain market share no matter how efficient you become.

These idiots we elect who spout these platitudes about "most favored nation trade partner" and "globalization" and all the other excuses for outsourcing jobs have never run a business. They've lived by feeding at the public trough all their life under the guise of "public service". Which public are they serving???

Until we elect politicians who will start to look out for the welfare and good of our country as opposed to everyone else in the world, who probably hates us anyway by now for clearly obvious reasons, I'm a fearing that we're in for a severe change in lifestyle.

[brent1]

buy the real estate hold it it will be worth more than a job shop,all are machine tool technology is being sold to all asia and european countries and mexico and canada
they do the work for nothing,they get prints and bid over the
internet and ship the parts ups when you get older you will realize that job shops
have to compete on a very slim profit margin,you need to work for the state or for
a large aero space co. with a large union to get something for retirement. job shops
only offer 401k with very little contribution u need a pension plan and a 401k and
maybe some stock options in a huge co. to have something in the end

[borrisl]

So.... what? We buy realestate and then get jobs working in Asia? Come on. We have to be able to do something to turn this blood letting around! Our government isn't going to do it. The only advantage we as Americans have is our ability to morph and innovate. I believe the manufacturing industry has the most gifted and talented people in the world. Manufacturing, to me, combines Art and Logic. Truely gifted people.

Granted, the school system has let us down. The trades are not being taught. We've convinced the students that working with your hands, or operating machinery is lower class. They should all major in business and start off making 100K plus a year. If engineering is too tough. Sub it out! We are selling ourselves down the river as a country. I know this! However, that doesn't mean I half to accept the status quo and become a lemming. I WANT to do something about it. I LIKE working with my mind, and hope to be innovative like alot of the people who read this forum. I'm in a pinch though. I don't have the option, in my area, to work at a shop. The college shut the machining program down 5 years ago. (last year in the program they had ONE student!!!) I don't want to "tinker" with frustratingly unprofessional tools for years to come. Maybe I should....... What do I do??? Maybe I should just get a job with WalMart and get really good at "Welcome to WalMart" and "Have a nice day".

[Perp]

I say just go for it, start your shop, and if you fail at least inside you know you tried your best. Only way to ever get ahead is to take risks.
Wal-mart will still hire you later in life if the shop goes out of business.

[john_rabbit]

This is a very vague question:

Scenario – Love machine work, enjoy working with metal and seeing something come of nothing. However, no formal training and only about a year of tinkering. Would like to make a run at making a living doing this. Have the money to buy some commercial machinery (VMC, CNC Lathe).

1. If this were you, would you dive into the markets and purchase some high end machinery? If yes, what type and size?

2. If not, would you continue to tinker until your “hobby” machines make you some dough and then buy the larger machines?

3. Do the newer machines make it easier to make a profitable business, or are the used stuff still profitable?

I wish I lived ANYWHERE near a machine shop. I wouldn’t mind working for someone for awhile. In my situation, there isn’t much around, so it’s me, myself, and I. Nearest shop is about 2.5 hours away.

the best machines to buy are the largest ones you can purchase without going overboard . why ? Machinist 30 years now machine designer call
me after 3pm est 706-813-6595 john

[ZipSnipe]

Borris, I did go and work at a Tool and Die shp hoping to learn the trade and figure a way to start a business in that line of work. However, I realize that it is extremely hard. I decided not to go that route as of yet.

Remember this : Overhead!!!! Overhead will bring a company down in a heartbeat. Example: Some buddies of mine bought an existing Shutter business, huge warehouse, showroom, they all bought big kingcab chevy fleet vehicles. Their overhead was huge, needless to say they last 6 months before closing down.

Example #2 I recently talked to a smaller tool and die shop. The owner told me he made the mistake of buying a 50k cnc Lathe, he bought for a specific job that was eventually going to pay it off. However halfway through the job his customer shifted the work somewhere else. Coupled with the bottom falling out, he had to refinance his house to keep his business afloat.

Example#3 Salesmanship!!! You have to have it! Ya need to be a good talker to reel in customers. Its not only your skill and experience at doing machinework, you need to come off as a pleasant outgoing personality and sell the customer your services with out sounding like a sales pitch. My old boss at the Tool and Die shop did not have this quality and therefore could not get in new work thus eventually leading to lay offs.

Just a couple of things to look at when starting a business.

Good Luck!!!