[emceul]

Hello,

I really need your help because i`m new in this area. I`m planing to buy my first CNC machine and i don`t know what to buy.

We are an aluminum casting company and i want a machine that will machine the parts (80% time) and to do some molds (20% of the time) ... not sophisticated molds... it doesn`t meter if i have to wait more hours when we are doing the molds. What interest me is to have lower times in machining aluminum parts and to have the freedom to manufacture new molds for my own new products.

I was thinking about a new HAAS because they have interesting prices. What i have in mind is a VF-2 BHE. At this price i can get also a Korean machine (FIRST).... it`s a bit bigger ... 800x500 mm ... I asked the korean dealer about Haas and he said: i don`t want to talk bad about the competition.

yes but give me a few details about haas.... why do you think is bad??
the same response....

so i`m asking you ... please give me a general opinion about Haas.
weakness/strong points...

should i buy a `90-98 second hand machine instead? Is it good for my business?

I appreciate a LOT your help.
Thank you,
Ioan RADU
Romania

[CNCRim]

If you take a Haas and compare with other America, German, Japan, and British machine builder I have to said Haas is not the same level. But you take Haas and compare with Korean machine, It's hard to said. Haas has the replacement part is cheaper,faster service, and user friendly control. Beside that I think everything esle is the same.

One negative about Haas control I have to mention is the monitor on some machine might be blank out at warm up with no reason.

[emceul]

Daewoo is korean ... you find it at the same quality level as Haas?

If you were to start again ... and you had to buy your first cnc machine.... what would it be? a new haas or a better one but second hand ...

thank you

[Edster]

I bought a used 94 fadal for my first cnc mill. I did a lot of maintance over the last 5 years, mostly little stuff, and it's been a good mill. I also bought a new haas sl-10 lathe a few months after I got the mill. I've had the service guy out once in 5 years to do a PM. I was feeling bad for not doing any maintenance besides clean the machine It's got about 4000 hours on it now and over 300,000 tool changes. Still runs great. I'd just go for the new haas if it's your first machine. You have enough learning to do without having to deal with a fix-er-upper.

[WITOMCIO]

I have 2 CNC Haas machines, bought them brand new in 2003.VF-4 and VF-2.
We manufacture anything from aerospace to small medical parts.
From aluminium to inconel.
Few problems in three years , nothing major or expensive.For the price I cannot think of better machine.
Depending on part run time I would consider Side Tool Changer($7K).
For mold work Quick Probing Sytem($5K) is great addition.
Actually the same Renishaw probing system from competition or Renishaw direct is $13,000.

I would recommend demo with Haas Outlet.
There are people who don't like Haas Centers and owning more expensive brand makes them feel good.It's your money.
You can still make good money owning Haas.
This is my personal experience with new machines.
Buying used I personally would not do.

[Geof]

I can back up Edster and WITOMCIO. I bought a barely used HL1 seven years ago and since then have bought another 14 Haas machines. Problems have been minimal considering the work that has gone through the machines. I would guess the total repair cost for problems that we did not cause would be less than $10000 which is pretty good spread over almost fifty machine years. One SuperMiniMill showed signs of being a lemon with toolchanger problems but Haas fixed it and extended the warranty and there has been no problems for around four years. The Haas control is very user friendly.

[miljnor]

I agree with geof but I had been running 3 years 16-18hours a day and had a run of bad luck this year and spent about 45k on 10 machines. This is really a fluke but it can happen. An average year for me is about 7k in repairs. But I would bet I run my machines a little hard than most! But hey you gota make money don't you.

I hardly ever buy new machines so who knows what kind of maintenence there was before I got them.

I will still keep buying them as they make me money.

[emceul]

being my first cnc i`m also thinking about buying a second hand...
it`s a very complicate decision to make ... for example i found a mori seiki for less then half the price of a brand new Haas.... well the machine is an MV-40 from 1991... but it does the job that i`m uninterested ...
On the other hand Haas is faster and of course is new!! the best solution is to buy top technology this way you are on step ahead from the competition but i don`t have the money for more those machines ...

i don`t want to make the wrong decision here ...

Anyway thank you for your advise!

[DEAN]

Any opinions out there on the reliability and quality of the Haas Gear Box? Partiularly when optioned with the 10K spindle?

[GOLETABRIAN]

being my first cnc i`m also thinking about buying a second hand...
it`s a very complicate decision to make ... for example i found a mori seiki for less then half the price of a brand new Haas.... well the machine is an MV-40 from 1991... but it does the job that i`m uninterested ...
On the other hand Haas is faster and of course is new!! the best solution is to buy top technology this way you are on step ahead from the competition but i don`t have the money for more those machines ...

i don`t want to make the wrong decision here ...

Anyway thank you for your advise!

I notice you are from Romania. How close is your Hass factory outlet or service center? We have three Hass mills and they work good but they need a lot of service. Just this year we have had a bad cable, X and Y axis motors go out, a tool changer broken off, 3 or 4 switches go bad, 5 or so relays, a spindle drive, two nitrogen counter balances. If your far from a service center keep in mind you have to pay for travel to get repairs done. I would buy new if your far from service. If you don't want to deal with service issues check out the Mori duracenters. If you are already looking at Korean machines check out the Kia mills. We have several of their lathes and they never have problems, I saw one of the mills at West tech and was very impressed for the money.

[HFOSM]

I have been working on Haas for 13 years. Haas can not and should not be compaired to Mori or any other high dollar Japanese or German machine but you need to ask yourself what you want. Haas is highly accurate and can be fitted with scales. I would like to see how long spare parts take to get to you on a Korean made machine. Haas offers local service and of all the machine tool companies I have dealt with not one cares more or is more flexable with customers. Every part on the machine is available next day at your door. Haas parts priced lower than anyone else I know of. Hey, if your local HFO is not getting the job done you can actually call the factory and talk to them. How many other machine tool companies would give to a direct line to upper management. Honestly, the biggest problem we see is people using the machines in a manner they are not intended to run in. It is amazing with all the new technology out there that people still think big heavy cuts are the way to go. Modern tooling supports faster lighter cuts and you can reduce cycle times at the same time.
I could go on forever but IMO Haas is a great machine as long as you use it within the within the work envelope it was designed for.

[DEAN]

Hey HFOSM,

What are your opinons on the the reliability and quality of the Haas Gear Box? Partiularly when optioned with the 10K spindle?

[Geof]

...What are your opinons on the the reliability and quality of the Haas Gear Box? Partiularly when optioned with the 10K spindle?

Not having any gearbox machines I don't have an opinion but I do have a question. Isn't getting the 10k option with a gearbox machine a bit contradictory?

If you get one it will be interesting to see what the parasitic load of the gearbox is at 10k. In high range the drive is probably straight through but you still have a lot of gears whipping around in the oil.

[HFOSM]

Hey HFOSM,

What are your opinons on the the reliability and quality of the Haas Gear Box? Partiularly when optioned with the 10K spindle?

No problems to note. They are proving dependable. Running a 4 inch face mill into a block of tool steel in rapid my give you some reason for concern but short of that I would not worry. Haas has done a lot of work on this and a few years ago introduced 30% larger gearset. There is a pressure switch to sense a loss of oil to the gearbox but I would recommend regualr oil changes and PM's.

[Loose Nut]

being my first cnc i`m also thinking about buying a second hand...
it`s a very complicate decision to make ... for example i found a mori seiki for less then half the price of a brand new Haas.... well the machine is an MV-40 from 1991... but it does the job that i`m uninterested ...
On the other hand Haas is faster and of course is new!! the best solution is to buy top technology this way you are on step ahead from the competition but i don`t have the money for more those machines ...

i don`t want to make the wrong decision here ...

Anyway thank you for your advise!

The MV-40 is a really good machine. I have had the opportunity to work on a few. However replacement parts can be hard to find at times and if the part cannot be replaced with a standard off the shelf item you can wait as much as 6 weeks for a replacement.
We did have one that needed the Y axis ways rebuilt but for the most part they ran like a scared dog.

Money will be the deciding factor. Do what you can with what you have. Upgrade when you can.




Loose Nut

[CNCRim]

Money will be the deciding factor. Do what you can with what you have. Upgrade when you can.

Yeah, get your feet wet and you can get new machine later.

[timf]

we have 13 fadals, 2 okk's and 1 mori.
we bought 2 vf3 ss with the small trunion for the same price as one of higher end machines (mori), i'm sure 2 machines out produce 1 most of the time.
for the jobs we are targeting the vf3 with trunions are working great.
since the vf3's are still new we have had no problems yet.
the work your planning on doing in the machine should drive your chioce.
my mori is 10 ears old and still holds .0002 with no problems, i doubt i'll have the same thing to say about the haas in ten years although it will hold it now.
bottom line will always be "you get what you pay for" but sometimes the cheaper item will work fine for now and you can upgrade after you make some money.

[preese73950]

I work in a shop that has 6 brand new Koran made machines, 2 15 year old mori, 1 3 yr old hass. every Koran made machine has had it spindle replaced at least once before the warranty was up. There is even one machine that has had the spindle replaced 4 times two times after the warranty. The hass and mori has let to give us any of the same problems and we are able to run them allot harder. But if you are looking for a good throw away machine the Koran made ones are it.

[tmt_92021]

Go With The Korean Made. I Just Bought Their New Tm1-p Machine And I Have Nothing But Big, Big Headache. Everyone I Talk To From Haas Agree That They Are Lacking Quality. Because They Are Trying To Maintain Their 1000 Machines A Month. Surely This Is Affecting Their Quality. My Next Machine Will Surely Be A Korean Or Taiwanese. These Countries Are Trying To Win Your Business So They Are Exceeding Their Quality And Service. Good Luck

[DEAN]

What sort of problems have you had with your TM1-P?