[tltaylor]

I guess I'm a little confused. I've been given the assignment at work to price out some smaller(3'x3') Cnc router for cutting into Trex style "wood material". We currently do this on a 4'X8' cnc with a 7hp spindle. So I get pricing from a company that makes large mills and a 5'x5', thier smallest, is like $70,000. What does a machine like this have over something like a ShopSabre for $12,000. both have the same z-travel, 5hp spindle and such. What's the deal?

[Al_The_Man]

Check out Larken tables, they make a good product http://www.storm.ca/~larken/
Al

[ger21]

I looked at the SHopSabre site, and for 12K you get a 4x5 with a 3HP columbo. A 5HP spindle and tool changer adds 10K more. The shopsabre is probably much lighter weight, and probably cuts much slower. Their cheapest vacuum system is 2K, a good one can run 7 to 10K. What are you comparing it too? A Komo or Thermwood or something like that?

[tltaylor]

I left the names at work so I will post them tuesday. The vacume system is a non issue for me as we have a large dedicated vac system for our vac.former and other mill. If i remember right the 3x3 system was $6900 + about 4K for the 5hp spindle set up. Wish i would have brought the pricing home, but I'll post it in the morning. Thanks for the advise.

Trent Taylor
Bullfrog International

[Kmed]

Look into a used motion master 4x8 or so. Most will come with either the AB 92 or 9600 or fagor 8040-8055 controllers. 7-15 HP spindles some with multiple spindles or tool changers. I know you can have a 4x8 used 5axis with twin heads ( 6 axis, 2 motors one 5 axis head one 3 axis head) for about $30k or so. If you are cutting wood they work great, and are built sturdy enough to make light but good cuts in aluminum, and any standard tooling boards..

[tltaylor]

Our 4X8 is a motion master with a 7.5hp spindle. We had a line on a used 5X8 a few weeks ago but it ended up selling for over $70k. If you see any in the 30K range let me know. I know from comparison of our motion master and the shopSabre that the SS is a lot lighter weight, but will a machine like SS break down more often or just not be able to cut materials like 3/8" plastic wood product? These are questions I will ask SS today, but I figured I'd ask the guys that aren't out to sell me machine.

Trent Taylor
Bullfrog International

[tltaylor]

I forgot to mention that we have been looking at DMI and Quintex machines if we go with larger more expensive units. Thanks for all the help. I don't post much but am learning alot.


Trent Taylor
Bullfrog International

[buscht]

There are lots of differences between the 12k machine and 70k+ machine.
Before considering the machine, you should define your requirements better.

Are you cutting 2 shifts per day, 5 days a week, with maximum output being the criteria? Is the operator going to be anyone who is hired off the street? Or is this in a protoytpe area where quick turnaround is important. Are you a small shop where the operator, programmer, maintenance guy are all the same person?

I am sure that both machines will cut your TREX product. The higher priced machines may cut it 2 to 3 times as fast. They have stronger drive motors and are more robust. Another benefit with a more commercial type machine is the multiple router heads/ drill heads. They are more versatile for production components.

Accuracy might be a factor, I'm not real familiar with the Shop Sabre, but check the specs on all machines for accuracy and repeatability.

A point to point router/drill might also work well on your TREX material. Used ones are available for around $30-40K

[tltaylor]

Thanks buscht,
All very good questions. We are actually a hot tub manufacterer and use the "plastic wood" on the cabinets of our tubs. Only the door panels are machined so we are looking at around 50 doors per day between two shifts(25 per) which gives me a 18-20 minute per door cut time on a dedicated machine. The current process takes about 5 minutes on our motion master, which is pulling a lot of duty on other projects. We work 50+ weeks a year, 5 days a week, 2 shifts.
We are not dealing with exteme close accuracy issues and I think all the smaller machines are accurate to about .05" or better. Ease of operation is important. A dedicated door panel machine would lower the skill level because no change of probram or tooling would be involved. Just plug and play basically. And this operation is agian just a 3-axis machine. I am also starting to look for a small 5 axis machine(18"X24"). Oh the fun. Thanks agian for the help.

Trent Taylor
Bullfrog International
www.bullfrogspas.com

[buscht]

Trent, At your volume levels and accuracy requirements, a Shop Sabre, Shopbot, Techno Isel machine will work well.

You stated that you want it simple. You should really get a dedicated vacuum pump for this machine or at least some dedicated way to clamp the parts down. Sharing between equipment is asking for problems.

The trick is to let the machine cut at about a 10 minute cycle, improve your load and unload procedures, and have the operator do some secondary operations during the machine cycle.

Good luck
T

[tltaylor]

I posted, but it must not have come through. Our 4x8 is a Motion Master 5 axis with 7hp spindle. We thought we might be able to pick up a used one cheap since they aren't around anymore. We found one last month, single head, single table and the guy wanted $70k. We called his bluff and he sold it the next day. If you see any around for #30K let me know. Plus we would like something smaller and more user friendly. Thanks for the help.

trent taylor
Bullfrog International

[ViperTX]

Okay, I'm being a wise-ass...but the difference between a $70K and $12K router is $58K....so, from a business point-of-view if I bill out the router and operator combo at $100 an hour....then I might possibly be able to justify a total downtime of 580 hours...spread this out over the life of this capital asset...say 5 years and I can afford about 116 hours of down time per year (basis calculation, no interest, no future / present value of money, etc.) The machinery dealer should be able to ballpark the downtime required on an annual basis for maintenance / repair ....compare that and the price difference.

[ger21]

Explain to me how you can justify that it's OK if your $12K purchase costs you an extra $58K ??? And I wouldn't buy a machine if the salesman told me I can expect a certain amount of down time. In a production environment most people can't afford ANY downtime. We do a lot of quick turnaround jobs. If our machine goes down, sometimes it can be impossible to get those jobs done on time. Maybe that's the part of the difference.
But in reality, for that price difference, you should be getting two VERY different machines. And I'd tend to think maintenance and repair would be a lot more on the more expensive machine.

[ViperTX]

Gerry, You answered your own question...you're a quick turn job shop with close to 100 percent utilization...you can't afford any downtime...on the other hand if you have a machine that is only used a small percentage of the time...it's costing you to sit idle and if you can have a less expensive and reliable machine perform the same task at a much lower cost then the idle billable hours are less costly. Also, if you have a sales rep tell you that a machine will never be down....run or get it in writing along with a downtime compensation clause (which shouldn't cost them anything...since the machine never goes down). We haven't even discussed the operator that is not cross-trained and only knows how to work with one underutized machine. So, it comes down to which machine will do the job, the cheapest, to spec. and when you need it done.

[tltaylor]

Down time is why we are looking at either a large $70-125k machine or several smaller units. The parts that these machines cut out are off line production, but due to Lean Management they act more like Just in Time/Online operations. We manufacture Hot tubs a little different than everyone else. A normal hot tub is just a formed shell with a buch of holes in it. If something new comes out next year you have to sell your tub to get it. In our tubs we form a shell with "jet pods" where the seats are. We then form Jet packs that we put the jets into. These jet packs are surrounded by water and conect into a universal feed pipe. The cnc machines not only trim our door panels, but trim and cut the holes in the jetpacks. Yes it can be done by hand, but the skill level goes sky high. Right now we are playing with a ticking time bomb only having one cnc to do everything. It has never been down for more than a day or two, but the company loses more money than I make in a year if it does. I like the idea of a number of smaller less expensive, but fully capable machines. Keep them all the same so that only one set of spare parts has to be kept on hand. Others here lean towards getting one more expensive machine. I just can't justify spending 50-100K more on one machine if you can get multiple $20K machines and have more check and balances in your line. I may be wrong.

Trent

[ger21]

on the other hand if you have a machine that is only used a small percentage of the time...it's costing you to sit idle and if you can have a less expensive and reliable machine perform the same task at a much lower cost then the idle billable hours are less costly. Also, if you have a sales rep tell you that a machine will never be down....run or get it in writing along with a downtime compensation clause (which shouldn't cost them anything...since the machine never goes down).

When comparing a 12K machine and a 70K machine, if the machine was only going to be used a small percentage of the time, it's a no-brainer to get the cheap one.

We have a point to point machining center at work. We shopped around for over a year before making a decision. I never met one salesman that new anything more about the machines or how they worked then was in the brochure. So I don't have much trust in salesman.

I know machines break down. With big money machines, service is always a strong selling point. But I don't want a salesman telling me to expect it to break down. I'd rather hear how reliable they are, not the opposite.