[MrBean]

Hello Guys. It's been a while since I last posted here, but recently I fancied building either a CNC lathe, CNC vertical mill, or maybe both.

I've been reading through some of the threads here in the Mill and Lathe project logs, and I've been amazed and inspired by various members projects, especially S_J_H and Jason3.

This is not my first foray into CNC, I built a moving table style router a few years back, which is pretty nasty looking, but works surprisingly well. Other than that and a few hand tools, I have nothing else to help me on my journey.

I've collected a few bits recently, just general parts when they've come up at good prices. I don't have much in the way of metal to build the actual machine from yet, but I have a friend on the case and it looks like I should be able to get some Aluminium plate of about 30mm thickness in pretty big slabs, like 1000mm square.
Is Aluminium strong/heavy enough for the main body/frame of a lathe or mill?

I'm not sure if the parts I have are more suited for a mill or lathe, also would it be easier to build one if I had the other. I mean If I build the mill first, will that help out much when building the lathe, or would a lathe be more help in building a mill?

Here's a pic of most of the parts I have at present. I think I'm going to start modelling these parts in CAD while I wait for news on some metal stock to build with. I like to CAD stuff and play with ideas before I start cutting anything and make a huge balls-up of something.

I'm guessing I'll be asking for a lot of advice on various stuff, I have some pretty funny ideas about things sometimes.

[The Blight]

With the amount of parts you have, you can build both!

I'm envious!

You could use one pair of the longest rails for the X axis on a mill. Use the shortest of the rails on the left for the Y axis, and the longest of the rails on the left for the Z axis. Use the other pair of the long rails for the Z axis on a lathe with the shorter rails (with 4 trucks) as the X axis.

30mm is quite good if the structure is well made. Did you find all those parts in the UK?

[MrBean]

Most of the parts came from the UK, a few from the US when the exchange rate was better for buying, and a few from Malaysia. I've been picking up parts for 2 or 3 years when I've found bargains. I had more parts, but gave some away to friends that were building machines.

For a lathe, would I be better to have more than 4 trucks for the long axis, (The long axis is called Z on a lathe??). The reason I ask is if I wanted to add a tailstock to support longer parts. Would the tailstock need to ride on those Z rails?

I found that I can download 3D models of some of the rails and carriages that I have, so that should save some time modelling. It's probably going to be a week or so until I hear anything on weather my friend can get me some aluminium, so I have some time to model all these parts.

Really looking forward to getting started on a lathe or mill. I might even live dangerously and build the two together.

[Jason3]

Hi MrBean,

I've found that the most useful tool when building a mill... is a mill! Likewise, a lathe is nice to have when building a lathe - it's a catch 22 situation. Seriously though, a mill is probably more useful in building either, I think.

I use aluminium a lot for mills, and more recently, a little lathe. I like working with it, it machines nicely, doesn't go rusty before you can finish the machine... although having said that I've just started a steel mill Undoubtedly aluminium isn't as rigid as steel, but most guys building machines with steel seem to use plate at 3/4" thick or less. If you can get your hands on that 30mm plate, I wouldn't hesitate to use it - I'd build it into a box section for the machine base and column and use it as is for the saddle and table, it would make a couple of fine machines.

The lathe tailstock doesn't have to ride on the same rails, many industrial machines have separate rails for the tailstock - see pic of the Hurco TM6 lathe below. Using a tailstock can make using gang tooling difficult, it's for this reason I'd like to build a turret for my next lathe project.

Looking forward to seeing the designs!

Best regards,

Jason

[MrBean]

Thanks for that information Jason3, that's encouraging.
I have found some solid steel bar that may make a nice bed for a lathe although it may be a bit on the small side. It's dimensions are 80mm x 40mm x 780mm. I have 2 pieces that size.
Focusing on the lathe for now. I read David gingery's book on building a lathe and there's an interesting bit about the lathe making it's own headstock once you get the Z and X axis built and working. I might give that a go as I don't want to have to buy a headstock assembly and I don't have an existing lathe I can use, so that might be interesting....

I do have my CNC router I can use for some jobs. It's built from Aluminium and MDF, so isn't the best, but if I take slow shallow cuts it cuts Aluminium pretty good.

Is it worth investing in a surface plate? I was looking at a granite one that is 600mm x 450mm x 100mm. Seeing as I don't mind putting some manual work in and I don't have a decent mill or surface grinder, I thought it might be a good investment. This is the one I was looking at: http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-A...late-20297.htm

Attached are some pics of an Aluminium skid I made for my RC heli on my CNC router. It came out ok.

[MrBean]

I started modelling some of the parts I've collected. There's a fair way to go with these still and I think for the rest of the parts I'm going to do more basic models. I don't think I really need to model every thread and screw, so long as the general size and dimensions are right.

I'm determined not to be one of those build it in CAD guy's and never actually get around to building the real thing, but I think having a model to poke around with will be a big help for me.

I still need to make up a list of lengths and travels for the ball screws and rails and decide what parts to use for each machine.

Here's a few pics of some of the modelled parts.

[Oldmanandhistoy]

Hi Mr Bean nice to see you back,

That face plate would be a very good investment imo and very useful if your machine building.

May I ask why you want to build rather than buy and what kind of work you would like out of these machines? What I would do and in fact am doing as we speak is reworking an old machine (Harrison mill) cheap as chips and a quality foundation for a home built CNC. If I were to build from scratch I would go with Hot rolled steel tubes filled with epoxy granite. Hot rolled steel for its superior stiffness compared to aluminium or even cast iron and its stability compared to cold rolled. Epoxy granite for its dampening characteristics which is 10 x better than cast iron.

Do you want to do all the building work yourself without farming some out elsewhere as you don't have a mill or lathe? Will you be buying a pre built spindle/head stock (X2 head) or similar?

Enough questions for now I think,

John

[hesham morsy]

Hi Mr Bean the Lathe u have design several yeares ago is my INSPIRATION for diy Lathe project

what is the type cad program u ar useing

[MrBean]

Hi Mr Bean nice to see you back,

That face plate would be a very good investment imo and very useful if your machine building.

May I ask why you want to build rather than buy and what kind of work you would like out of these machines?

Do you want to do all the building work yourself without farming some out elsewhere as you don't have a mill or lathe? Will you be buying a pre built spindle/head stock (X2 head) or similar?

Enough questions for now I think,

John

Hi John, it's good to be back on CNC zone, it's been a while since I frequented the forum, but I have an itch and it has to be scratched.

Those are some good questions and I have been giving them some thought.

I want to build, not buy. For me the thrill is in the building, satisfaction and knowledge gained in so doing. I have no use for a lathe or mill to be honest, I'm sure I will find use for them here and there, but I really have nothing in mind. For me these machines aren't a means to an end, they are an end in themselves.
So that's why I'm not going to buy anything unless I really get stuck.

For those reasons I want to do all the building work and not farm anything out. Obviously I'm not planning to build my own steppers and ball screws etc... but I would like to have a bash at my own headstock/spindle, and only buy if I really can't build something myself. I'm at least going to give everything a go.

I'm going to take your advice and get myself a surface plate. Scraping and testing might be sweaty manual work, but it's the only way I'll have to check for flatness/squareness.
On that subject, should I get some 1 2 3 Blocks, they look like they might be useful?

Can you, or anyone, recommend some metal suppliers in the UK, preferably that will deliver. If my mate doesn't come up with anything I'll have to go shopping, but finding suppliers seems trickier than I thought especially in small quantities.

The epoxy granite sounds cool, I'll have a read up about it, could be interesting.

-------------------------------------------------

Hi Mr Bean the Lathe u have design several yeares ago is my INSPIRATION for diy Lathe project

what is the type cad program u ar useing

Jeez that lathe picture is from a while back. I did that model because I knew I would be wanting to build a lathe one day, and used that to visualise some ideas. I had no intention of actually building that exact one. I'm at the mercy of the parts I have and whatever metal stock I can get hold of, so my design will be evolving as I collect more bits.

CAD is from Rhino.

[Jason3]

That's a really nice skid - it must be a decent size Heli

What grade is the steel stock you have? You could use the pieces vertically, and fix the headstock between them, linear rail on each one and Z axis ball screw between...?

1-2-3 blocks: I use mine pretty much daily! I don't have a surface plate, but would be lost without the blocks. I use them for all sorts. Sometimes if I need to machine all sides of a part I tap the back and bolt the block to it, then clamp the block in the vice. I bolt them together for a small, accurate square. Yesterday I used them to support the ends of a long bar held at the centre in the vice. They would be approaching the most used tool in my 'shop, I'd hate to be without them...

Those renderings are from Rhino!? I have a lot to learn... How do you get the nice reflection on the background? Very cool...

Best regards,

Jason

[Oldmanandhistoy]

Interesting answers

I don't buy steel online and the only link I have is this one http://www.metals4u.co.uk/?gclid=CKH...FYoVzAodjWVg5g , this one for aluminium http://www.aluminiumwarehouse.co.uk/ and this one for aluminium profile http://www.aluminium-profile.co.uk/ .


I think this is going to be an interesting thread and will be following along.

John

[veteq]

Nice parts you have over there, now i know why i never win on ebay!!

Maybe you should make a combo machine?

regards.

[MrBean]

That's a really nice skid - it must be a decent size Heli

What grade is the steel stock you have? You could use the pieces vertically, and fix the headstock between them, linear rail on each one and Z axis ball screw between...?

1-2-3 blocks: I use mine pretty much daily! I don't have a surface plate, but would be lost without the blocks. I use them for all sorts. Sometimes if I need to machine all sides of a part I tap the back and bolt the block to it, then clamp the block in the vice. I bolt them together for a small, accurate square. Yesterday I used them to support the ends of a long bar held at the centre in the vice. They would be approaching the most used tool in my 'shop, I'd hate to be without them...

Those renderings are from Rhino!? I have a lot to learn... How do you get the nice reflection on the background? Very cool...

Best regards,

Jason

The heli is a T-rex, electric jobbie, and I'm useless at it.
I have no idea what grade the steel is, I found it in a scrap pile. I have no engineering background at all, so even if I knew the grade it would mean nothing to me! That's something I need to read up about and maybe get a chart printed up as a reminder for the different type materials.
1-2-3 blocks will definitely be added to the list of things to get.
Rhino sucks a lot in a lot of areas, but then I find it good in others. Rendering is quite sucky though, the renders pictured earlier in the thread were using the Flamingo ray tracer.

Interesting answers

I don't buy steel online and the only link I have is this one http://www.metals4u.co.uk/?gclid=CKH...FYoVzAodjWVg5g , this one for aluminium http://www.aluminiumwarehouse.co.uk/ and this one for aluminium profile http://www.aluminium-profile.co.uk/ .

I think this is going to be an interesting thread and will be following along.

John

Thanks for those links John, I've not had time to check them out yet. I'm sure I've not visited them before, except metals4u. I'll take a look at the others soon.
I'm also hoping this will be an interesting build. I hope it doesn't disappoint and I'm glad you're along for the ride.

Nice parts you have over there, now i know why i never win on ebay!!

Maybe you should make a combo machine?

regards.

That's a neat looking design. Very cool.
I think I'll stick with the two separate machines though. I think with my limited skills it will be easier to keep them separate and I won't have to make as many compromises to fit two machines into one.


In other news.....
I tidied my garage out a bit. I'm pretty bad at keeping a tidy ship, but there just wasn't room to move. (See picture below)
Anyhow, I found some more odds and ends, and a manual mill that I'd forgotten I had, tucked up in the corner. The mill's table is 450mm x 160mm.
I also found some odd bits of metal (See pictures) One of the pictures has a cigarette packet in to give a bit of a size reference. I'm pretty sure there's nothing there that would make a good base for either a lathe or mill. Some of the bits will come in for some of the smaller parts and bracketry etc...

I also found a V-roller thingy. (Wisecarver maybe??) That could come in handy for another router one day.

I think I might give the manual mill a rub down and check it for squareness with a DTI. I meant to sell the milll last year. Looks like it got covered up and I forgot it was there. So I'll hang on to it for the time being and sell it after I've built myself a CNC mill.

[Jason3]

Of all the things to find in your garage, a mill is probably the perfect one for this project.

From what I've heard, being able to make your own parts is the only way RC heli's are an affordable hobby On Rhino 3D - I agree. I can't find the time to learn it properly, and when I try, I don't use it enough and forget everything

McMaster have a good page with characteristics of most of the common steels: http://www.mcmaster.com/#steel/=1pb36r - no doubt there's better out there, but it's a start. I bought my steel from Corus - you probably have a local branch somewhere near you? I'm using a free machining grade stock, it cuts nicely and gives a decent finish but more importantly, it seems to stay straight after machining... I'm sure you could use some, if not most of what you already have though.

Best regards,

Jason

Ps - is that the beginnings of a RAID array beside the drawers?

[MrBean]

Thanks for that link regarding alloy properties, that's going to come in handy if I need to buy some stock.

Buried treasure indeed.

A few hours ago I turned up some 3 phase motors and three variable frequency, single to three phase inverter drives. I need to read the manuals but I'm hoping they might be able to be controlled via Mach3. The largest is 1.5Kw and it's brand spanking new, still in the original packaging. I also found 2 DC servo's and 4 decent looking steppers.

Heli's are definitely not a cheap hobby. I've had mine for about 3 years and only flown it twice, both times I turned it into confetti. It's currently fully re-built, but I don't get much time to fly (As in crash) these days.
This video is what inspired?? me to buy an electric heli.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X93CF81jfLM"]YouTube - Paskov Hornet 2[/ame]

I really don't know why I'm keeping those hard drives, half of them don't work and the other half are really low capacity. I hate to throw stuff away, which is how my garage got in that mess in the first place. It's amazing how much I've managed to pile up in there. There's a CNC router that I haven't got around to finishing, it's about 80% built, with a foot print of around 1000mm x 600mm. I also have a reasonable drill press and two table saws hiding in there too amongst other things. It's like Aladdins cave meets the Tardis.

I'm going back in there tomorrow to tidy up some more.

[CROSSHATCH]

Mr bea, what size Heli you have 450? I have a EXI 450 and love it. I need a new head assembly, nice part, I made similar design. Yet to cut though.
Just saw your video, impressive stuff.


Nice project for the lathe! I like!


-Jason

[MrBean]

Yes, I have the Align 450XL CCPM. I just wish I could fly it better, or at least crash it a bit softer. It must be 2 years since I last took it out.
The heli in that vid is a Hornet II, nice, but the Align 450XL is supposedly superior... (Not in my hands it seems though )

Back to the CNC doings. I had a phone call from my friend who is looking out for metal for me. He's nabbed me some bits, I have no idea what just yet, but he said there's none of the really big stuff I was hoping for, they can only get hold of that when they de-commission a machine at the factory he works at. At the minute I'll take anything, it's bound to be better than what I currently have.

In the mean time I've modelled 6 more of the linear rails and I shall continue with the CAD while I wait....

[Khalid]

so you are cutting the grass with helicopter

[MrBean]

I've measured up and modelled all the linear rails I have, except for the very smallest rails that only have one carriage on each rail, they don't appear useful for the lathe or mill.
I still have ball screws to do, but I made a list of parts sizes and travels to try and make a decision on which parts would be best for what.

IKO LINEAR RAILS:

800mm, 4 carriages, 715mm Max travel
759mm, 4 carriages, 674mm Max travel
519mm, 4 carriages, 429mm Max travel
310mm, 4 carriages, 220mm Max travel
270mm, 4 carriages, 200mm Max travel

THK LINEAR RAILS:

622mm, 4 carriages, 537mm Max travel
270mm, 2 carriages, 200mm Max travel

BALL SCREWS:

800mm, 16mm Dia, 5mm Pitch, 720mm Max travel
685mm, 16mm Dia, 16mm Pitch, 550mm Max travel
500mm, 14mm Dia, 5mm Pitch, 355mm Max travel
500mm, 14mm Dia, 5mm Pitch, 355mm Max travel
340mm, 10mm Dia, 4mm Pitch, 225mm Max travel
280mm, 20mm Dia, 5mm Pitch, 110mm Max travel
270mm, 15mm Dia, 10mm Pitch, 135mm Max travel
185mm, 12mm Dia, 5mm Pitch, 75mm Max travel

For the lathe Z axis I think the 500mm ball screw would be a good choice with a travel of 355mm (almost 14 inches). Used in combination with the 622mm THK rails with a travel of 537mm. The number for Max travel is with the carriages butted up together and I'll want to open them up some, reducing the travel, but the ball screw only has 355mm travel anyway. Also that still leaves room for the 2 carriages from the 270mm THK's to be put on the Z rails for a tail stock.

So that should give me a Z with 355mm travel and 6 carriages (4 for the saddle and 2 for the tail).

For the X axis the 340mm ball screw, (225mm travel), looks like it should be okay along with the 310mm rails, (220mm Max travel). I'll space the carriages a bit and probably end up with around 180mm travel on that axis, (Just over 7 inches).

What do you guys reckon?
Your comments and suggestions please.

[MrBean]

Everything has been feeling a bit "virtual" so far, so I went in the garage and had a bit of a tinker with stuff. Just trying out a few ideas with the real parts rather than CAD. I'm wondering if I can bolt together those two large lumps of steel I have, then weld all around the join? It's damn heavy and looks like it might make a good base for the lathe.

I'll wait and see what bits my friend turns up before I decide on anything.

Also while I was out there, I dragged the manual mill out from the corner and had a play with that. I surfaced a piece of steel plate to see how the mill performed, but because I haven't used a mill before and have no benchmark from which to judge, I really have no idea if it worked well or not. The end result looked ok, but turning the handles made my hands and arms ache.