[HuFlungDung]

I had Camsoft Pro installed on a Moore Jig Grinder about three years ago, replacing an AB8400 control that was down more than up. My installer did a good job on the hardware, but kind of left me hanging on the software. The machine runs okay today, but I had to learn a lot more about the operating code than I wanted to, primarily because of the time involved. The machine holds tolerances as good as the original control, but there are several quirks that I need to watch out for. For instance, the other day I stopped a program, and the control lost position. Now whenever I stop a cycle I am forced to check the part home position. I have been picking away at problems slowly, but some of the logic is above my pay grade. Tech support has generally been helpful, but I have to be careful to entertain single issues. I have also gotten some good ideas through this forum. I will be upgrading the PC soon, so I expect I will be needing some assistance soon.

I've never had any problem that way whatsoever. But of course, all systems are unique when it comes down to a Camsoft install so this makes it tougher to compare problems. But that is by no means one of those things that you should have to put up with.

There are several things which you might do during the course of normal operation which cause the control to start executing your gcode over from the beginning. Is this what happened? Do you have a gcode to return your machine to home before each tool change? I suppose you could figure that a grinder only has one tool, but it would still be best operational procedure to return to home if you abort a program.

[Karl_T]

If I were you.

1. I'd use your galil stuff to refit a hobby machine to Camsoft. You'll learn a ton. The licence can be moved over to the big unit. Have your electrician in step 2 involved.

2. Camsoft would be a great choice for your big unit IF you have a great installer. You'll need on to do this change quickly. See about hiring Ernie at Camsoft for programming. You'll need a seriously good electrician also.

3. the huge advantage of Camsoft is no separate PLC. You want to wire all your I/O to Opto 22 boards. If it is all I.D. ahead of time this isn't a big deal.

[battwell]

i dont think you quite understand the machine.
the cable runs to the heads would be in excess of 35 metres long for the i/o doing direct cable runs with lots of flexing. would require a bundle of 95 wires to the head. i wouldnt trust this due to noise pickup and tracing wire breaks in the future. the manufacturers had the right idea. keep the cabling short and feed it all serially. thats how im going to try to keep it.
i have a hnd in electronics and have been working with automation (entertainment not industrial however) all my life including 2 years programming. in the 90s i owned a wiring harness company so i dont think the wiring side is going to worry me. i already know what wires run where. they are all blue but clearly number marked both in plc cabinet and on i/o boards. i have schematics marked with plc i/o too. (so im hoping i wont need to find an electrician as it would mean im starting to suffer from alsheimers)

also, since i got divorced i dont have much else to do in the evenings apart from read manuals etc and experiment. i find beer helps with the thinking that goes with this!

re camsoft. im still undecided that its the right thing to use. it seems strange that there is no trial program to get you hooked on it?

the idea is this. i refit mine then i refit others. i want the retrofit to not only look professional but work as i say it will to customers.i wouldnt even try to sell a refit until mine has done 6 months of production without major problem. Also re doing refits for others i need to be able to make and configure /program whatever is needed before starting the job. the idea would be to take boxes of bits along, hook up, test, final configure and debug hopefully without more than 2 days downtime for the owner. then to spend 3-5days with owner/operator training and checking/debugging any small flaws. if im going to do it it will have to be as i would want someone to do it for me.

i will keep researching until i get the right solution.
thanks for the input anyway.

[Al_The_Man]

Incidentally what is the type of serial protocol to the I/O? is is one of the semi-proprietary bus like CanBus, Profibus etc or simple RS232?
Al.

[Al_The_Man]

Incidentally what is the type of serial protocol to the I/O? is is one of the semi-proprietary bus like CanBus, Profibus etc or simple RS232?
Al.

[battwell]

pretty sure its labelled as rs232 but il check
it is only 2 wires plus ground and running to a 9 pin d plug

[Metalmog]

I have had it for a few years now, and I really like the way it is designed and the fact that you can configure it for almost anything and everything. When I had the maintenance, Camsoft where very responsive and for the most part could answer everything I needed to know, except one.

I had chosen possibly the most difficult path you can imagine to get started, bought an old ebay CHNC Hardinge style machine and rebuilt it from scratch including all the electrics and electronics etc also from ebay. I really do not recommend anybody try that, even with good tech support and buckets of knowledge. I nearly lost a huge order because I could not get it to work properly for some time.

However in my opinion - the manuals suck. They are accurate in content, but really all over the map to someone starting out. To me - they do themselves a huge injustice. They would do well to do a cohesive rewrite.

Another issue I found in my application was that some canned cycles as supplied just would not work because of sloppy code. As presented there is no way in hell they could have ever worked. I appreciate that every machine is different - but nowhere was there a practical detailed real world example where it actually all works together. Snippets abound everywhere but something you can rely on that works - so you can understand what makes it tick. It took a lot of trial and error and now I have no hair left.

This is software however that you can get into, to make most CNC applications sing and dance to your tune, which cannot be said for many other stuff out there. There is the reason why they have so many installs out there. However it does come at a price - I do think the maintenance at (15% of the initial cost) per year is a little steep. At half that I just might reconsider.

The version I have (16 something) is so reminiscent of Windows 3.1 (which is dating me and for you young ones precedes Windows 95) it's not very funny in the 20th century! Even March3 has a better looking and easier to configure interface (dare I say it, almost free by comparison). All those bells and whistles such as computer voice and sound files etc - don't have much use for them. A few lights and a buzzer - are all I need.

So what's the opinion on AS3000. Is there still somebody using this software out there? A nice conversational interface would sure be nice for those quick and simple jobs. I just could not see my way spending another 4K to the next level and decided to use Kipware instead. Can somebody enlighten me why I should spend 4K for level 10 when I can get say One CNC at 2K that can do all of it and more.

Lets liven up this forum a bit, what do you say?

[Karl_T]

...liven up this forum a bit, what do you say?

I would agree with some of your critics.

Canned cycles - the provided default .CBKs are weak here. I have been publishing my more difficult canned cycles here on the Zone in the (so far futile) hope that more would do the same. For my CHNC, I've only done G76. Do you have any to share?

AS3000 (NOT my area of expertise) - The level 1 seems about the same as entry level packages of other companies several years back. I've not seen much upgrade activity here. IMHO, Camsoft is focusing on machine control and leaving this sit.

I almost bought level 5 - there was a real special a few months back - just to persue a real conversational interface. All the programming tools are there to set up a neat and Kewl conversational package if you had better graphics. Lot of work though. Somebody want to give me $10K? I'll make it happen.

So, yes, they ain't perfect. Just remember there has only ever been One Man that was created perfect, and we killed him.

Karl

P.S. I'm another eBay and auction scrounger. Lot of work, but how else do you make a machine equal to toady's top CNC machines for pennies on the dollar?

[ontheroad]

Metalmog I see some of your points but you are way too harsh. I have to applaud these guys. I have seen and used many CNC packages and these guys by far in my book are the top of the line. The documentation is in real printed manuals. No one gives you these anymore. There must be 3000 pages or more. The people that have helped me are great. Going beyond answering my questions to help me solve problems are aren't related to the stuff they sold me. They have the best support than any other software company I have ever dealt with.

My maintenance is only $199. My lawyer charges more than that to answer one question. This gives me new software upgrade and access to engineers. BobCad wants $1000 each time they send me a new version. CamSoft updates are free.

I haven't read all the manuals but to an old guy like me I enjoy learning new CNC stuff. Use your Search for Solution button to find answers. They let you search on several words at a time, any words, all words , phases which are things to can't do with a PDF search. Make your own bitmaps. I did.

John,

[Karl_T]

I haven't read all the manuals but ...

Shame on you. Somebody worked hard writing all that. Technical writing is a difficult task. If you swear off evening TV you can read it all in less than two weeks. About the same as reading "Lord of the Rings" trilogy. I've done it cover to cover plus all the help directory at least four times now. Learned a ton every time.

You can take this as proof that I'm a nerd.

Karl

[Metalmog]

Who I really would like to hear from is the company that spent $20K to get the full package, not some sales person. They where getting into quite a bit of serious stuff. +5axis motion can get quite challenging, not to mention those multi spindle machines that need to sync up etc. There is some very interesting 5-axis work on U-Tube. There was one that was milling out a centrifugal rotor blade - from the inside presumably to make it ligher.

I will galdly share some routines, but most of them that I wrote are a cludge to do milling on the lathe etc so not very shareable. As such I used a full blown 3Hp servo to drive my spindle. This servo changes from speed(Velocity) mode under normal operation using the G-code Spindle S, to current control mode when in three axis mode (very similar to C-Axis control). I am limited to 3000 rpm max, which is a problem for me because I do mostly small work requiring higher speeds.

I have recently aquired via ebay a proper ac spindle motor and controller that is ideal for my purpose (@ $49.00 - no not a typo but the transport was another story). It is a 7.5kW unit that will go as high as 8000rpm. It will still need to change mode into full C axis mode and will produce 0.01 degree increments which is fine enough for me. Now my routines can be a lot more generic and these I will share once done.

I need to do a lot of threading, so my focus is to get that working as fast as possible including tapered threads. Also internal very fine thread milling.

My biggest pain has been to setup the tooling accurately, the first time. Am finishing off a setup camera with a 0.0002" resolution that can be used for all setting work. Kind of like a presetter but more versatile.

Next will be to replace the joystick control with dials because that joystick works but a pain to use. yes I totally re-wrote the joystick routines and created screen layout which was a lot of work. Actually I am re-vamping the entire machine, now that I have the right stuff, but it took over two years to aquire.

[Al_The_Man]

. As such I used a full blown 3Hp servo to drive my spindle. This servo changes from speed(Velocity) mode under normal operation using the G-code Spindle S, to current control mode when in three axis mode (very similar to C-Axis control).
I have recently aquired via ebay a proper ac spindle motor and controller that is ideal for my purpose
.

What make of Spindle is it?
I am just experimenting with Fanuc AC servo's for spindle control and C axis option.
Some have a brake which is handy for spindle lock feature.
The problem is getting economical drives in these sizes.
Al.

[Metalmog]

It's a Mitsubishi AC spindle motor and matching driver (was a real find). Electrocraft make nice stuff in DC drives also.

[Al_The_Man]

I have been using AMC, but they get pricey in this range.
A few years back Mitsubishi were dumping last years stock on ebay, I was buying VFD's by the pallet.
They had a complete lathe system with servo's and spindle for $7,000.00.
Servo's and spindles for 10¢ on the $.
I think they got flak from different reps, as they no longer seem to do this unfortunately.
Al.

[Metalmog]

I got the notion that you are in Vancouver, CA somewhere.

We seem to have the same interest, email me at [email protected] and we can meet for lunch sometime.

I really like the Mitsubishi stuff, very realiable, well made and well documented. Excellent performance as well but spares etc ... My machine is totally Mitsubishi except X axis and when a bargan 1kw servo and drive arrive, I'll be there.

[Karl_T]

I will galdly share some routines,...

I need to do a lot of threading, so my focus is to get that working as fast as possible including tapered threads. Also internal very fine thread milling.

My biggest pain has been to setup the tooling accurately, the first time. Am finishing off a setup camera with a 0.0002" resolution that can be used for all setting work. Kind of like a presetter but more versatile.

For threading a lot has been written here on the zone. I suggest you copy my work, start by installing a slot sensor on your spindle encoder wheel, then a high speed Opto input and an output to power it. Then just copy in my G76 and you're done. Now, you owe me a week's worth of coding on other canned cycles <VBG>

We set up tooling with test cuts; quick but not accurate enough. Then make a first part and adjust on the tool parameter screen. Normally takes three parts if the specs. are at all tight. If you prove out a better way, I'd like to know.

Karl

[Al_The_Man]

I got the notion that you are in Vancouver, we can meet for lunch sometime.

Be a long lunch for me I am in Wpg, but I do get out west from time to time.
Once I get my Fanuc spindle set up, I am looking forward to trying the threading using the index, FI, I have tested it on the bench and it looks promising, I do not using it in the normal way, I just to hold everything up until the marker is seen and then it drops through to the Gearing instruction.
The advantage is that it does not take up a I/O input, I am hoping it is just as fast or faster than processing a regular input?
Al.

[ScottLea]

I don't want to rain on people's parade, but I must say that camsoft that I used on my Bridgeport Discovery 300 VMC retrofit was a night mare. I got the whole enchilada: Galil, pendent, break out boxes, control techniques drives, brand new vector flux drive, new computer, monitor, Opto-22 with control board. So doing the config and wiring was pretty easy actually, the Camsoft manual was reasonable about this. Mapping the old system to the new was a little tricky, but went pretty fast. A few tricks to get the correct settings for FANUC circles etc. I think I had over $14k into the Camsoft (CAM, control)+Opto-22+Galil+pendent, and this was 8 years ago...

Then the fun faded quickly. I could write a book on the crap I had to deal with to get it to work properly. Start with the cheesy interface, silly audio features (useless in noise fill environment), no decent post processor available, very few G-code scripts for the standard milling setup, and sometime they didn't work. Slow script processing, terrible script language... TERRIBLE documentation (OMG), worst I've ever seen. Threading functions used by the G-Code scripts simply did not work. I used the threading scripts provided, these use library functions, major crash! I would have had to take an $800 upgrade to get the fix. It would thread downward, then upward -- all good -- then plunge straight down ripping out the threads and breaking the tap. I was trying to go back to the nominal tool height -- They confirmed it was a bug... I had to write the routine myself. The function library was terribly document.

On the upside, I must say that the Galil and Opto-22 work great, I hand coded some Galil code to get some cool stuff.

I've switched to Mach 3, rewrote my own Galil driver, works awesome and is RS-274 compliant.

Sorry, just had to tell someone...

[camsoft]

Scottlea,

We would like to find out who you are, who was your assigned dealer and come and pay a visit. We don't know what happened 8 years ago and all of us on the technical staff has been here this long and no one recalls your situation. Maybe you don't need us at this point but we would still like to send some one to investigate. We may have a different take on this.

We don't sell technique drives or vector flux drive then nor now. It's all pretty sad that you feel you have to write something like this.

Still today the CNC Professional version remains the best system offered on market. There isn't another system with more on-line and professional written printed documentation. It still the most configurable system on the market. Each user can change the default system with his or her own operator interface, canned cycles or even alter the sounds and verbal text to speech instructions. Each user can make the system feature rich or as simplistic as they feel it should be. Plus write complex IO logic routines inside the system to handle over 400 relays. This can all be done without having to learn computer programming languages such as C++, VB script or ladder logic.

The point is that we seen a lot of other packages over the last 28 years. What we ship is bug free and while you may have a problem setting up, learning or with custom logic per application the software itself is shipped bug free. We have improved and evolved since 1981 but at least we know that when compared to what our competitors ship on the topic of bug problems most are 100 times worst.


Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
[email protected]
PH 951-674-8100
Fax 951-674-3110
www.cnccontrols.com

[n174k]

Scottlea,

I must answer your critique of the CamSoft control system. During the last 21 years of my machine tool CNC retrofitting activities, I have been involved in 100+ retrofits using Fanuc, DynaPath, Allen Bradley and CamSoft control systems. I have been using the CamSoft products since 2002 and to date have been involved with 40+ installations on lathes, mills, routers, lasers, turret punches, brakes, custom built machines and various product testing machines.

During that time I have experienced several issues that required modification to complete the specialized tasks that were required by the project. This is an open architecture system which by definition allows almost endless modifications and capabilities that you can conceive. It appears you want a defined system to operate out of the box as the manufacturer decides how it should operate. This is fine and you can purchase such systems.

During installation of CamSoft on various projects I have been able to create processes, combine motions, and create data gathering systems that could not be achieved with a ladder based logic interface.

We all have our right to express our opinions, but the lack of experience does not give us the right to condemn a product. Because I can’t fly a Boeing 747 does not mean that it is a piece of crap.