[slammedxonair]

I have allways wondered if I made the right decision going with the Dynatorch setup. Don't get me wrong but I have just allways wondered if anybody has actually had experiance with both machines and what there opinions are about them. And for hell of it how about we throw plasmacam in the mix. So if anybody has had experiance with 2 or more of the machines listed let me know your thoughts.

[magma-joe]

Slammedxonair, Why don't you throw an industrial table with Hypertherm controls also? Then you would really have something to compare with. The list of differences between Dynatorch, Torchmate, and Plasma Cam are to numerous to detail.

I do find it interesting how much information on the Torchmate website is devoted to convincing the potential customer that they don't need servo motors coupled to a gear box. Especially intelligent servo motors, which is what Dynatorch uses. The Hypertherm systems also use servos coupled to a gear box. Also interesting is the fact that Torchmates top of the line model uses servo motors with gear boxes?

Torchmate says rapid speeds faster than 350IPM are virtually never needed. This is because higher rapid speeds are limited by the lower cost stepper motors they use. To the low cost uneducated potential buyers group this sounds believable. And it is true if ALL your table time was actually cutting. To me rapid speeds are just as important as cutting speeds. Torchmates target is the entry level groups and their primary driving force in buying a table is cost. No matter what you are buying low cost translates into less features, less quality, less options and so forth.

Here is a section of Torchmates information;

(Bear in mind that the vast majority of cnc cutting movements with stepper motors are at less than 300 rpm motor speed, which translates to about 130 inches per minute on Torchmate machines. Cutting speeds and rapid traverse moves up to about 350 inches per minute are possible, although cutting would rarely require speeds in excess of 150 inches per minute. Rapid traverse moves faster than 350 inches per minute are virtually never needed, as the distance between pieces being cut rarely provides sufficient time for ramping (acceleration and deceleration). Don't be taken in by claims of super fast speeds. The more important issue in cnc plasma and oxy-fuel applications is how slow a move a machine can make. Oxy-fuel cutting of thick steel can require speeds as slow as 2 or 3 inches per minute)

Slammedxonair, I suspect the Dynatorch you own has rapids somewhere in the 850 inch per minute / 14" per sec range. If you would like to find out what rapids of 350 inches per minute are like, open your machine settings and go to Maximum velocity (inches/sec) and change it to 5.83 inches per sec which is 350 inches per minute. Save the setting and then rapid your gantry from one end of the table to the other. I am sure you will be convinced you don't want steppers at 350IPM.

I have a 12' Dynatorch table. It would take about 25 seconds for the gantry to travel from one end of the table to the other at 350 IPM. At 850 IPM it currently takes about 10 seconds to traverse the length of my table.

After having a Corvette, it would be hard to convince yourself a Volkswagon is fast enough although in the end both will get you there.

Rapid speeds are just one of the many differences in the different hardware and software these manufacturers offer. To get a clear picture you must start with the Cadillac (Hypertherm control equipped industrial table) and compare to what is being offered by Dynatorch, Torchmate, and Plasma Cam. Then compare the cost of the different machines and of course how much you spent on your Dynatorch.

[slammedxonair]

Yea I had oiginally looked at a Koike Machine but its was like 2 times the price of the Dynatoch and My Dynatorch has quite a few extras(would like to add more onto it eventually). The guys at Dynatorch spent alot of time talking to me about there machine. It seems like Torchmate is a bigger company and sells alot more units but if they are more less hobby units and have less cut quality then I think I made the right choice. I'm allways curious to what else is out there in the market for all kinds of things. I know I made the right choice with the Hypertherm 1250 as well. I even got the machine torch and the hand torch for it.

[WSS]

S
Torchmate says rapid speeds faster than 350IPM are virtually never needed. This is because higher rapid speeds are limited by the lower cost stepper motors they use. To the low cost uneducated potential buyers group this sounds believable. And it is true if ALL your table time was actually cutting. To me rapid speeds are just as important as cutting speeds. Torchmates target is the entry level groups and their primary driving force in buying a table is cost. No matter what you are buying low cost translates into less features, less quality, less options and so forth.

I would take 2K ipm if it were available! It is what happens when the machine is not cutting that makes you money. Wether it is plasma or oxy, you are limited to the output of the source while cutting. However the quicker you get to the next cut, the better. 100% "make money" cycle is the goal. I like to have two hour meters on our machines, one shows burn (or cut) time and the other shows power on time. The goal is to get the numbers to match.

WSS

[Torchhead]

Most of the non-cutting time on a plasma table is:

Loading/Unloading material
Cleaning up the objects that fall through (that you want or that stick up)
Chipping off slag from the slats so the next sheet will lay flat.
Changing/checking consummables.
Setting up jobs (reading the job ticket and making sure all the settings are right)
Troubleshooting Bad/missed cuts
Operator breaks and butt scratching.

Of the total cutting time, rapids account for a lot less percentage than the cuts.

The amount of time you would save between having rapids at 500 IPM VS 1000 IPM could not account for more than a few minutes per job. Perhaps not more than a couple of bathroom breaks per day. If you have to worry about an extra 10 minutes a day then either you don't price things properly or you have way too much work and need to buy another table!

Running tables at high rapids all day long means having to build a very stout (heavy) table. That means you compromise torque/acceleration for speed. Acceleration on a table is in my opinion of more value than screaming rapids.

So let's look at how much time you would save on a common job. If it was a sheet full of small parts then most of the time is doing an IHS before every pierce. You would never hit 1000 IPM from one part to the next (or even 500). If it's big parts on big sheets than the number of rapids is less and most of it comes at the end where you have to move the gantry out of the way. So lets say you save 50% of your total rapid time on a job. On a 12 ft table at 1000 IPM you move it in about 8.5 seconds. At 500 IPM you run the same distance in about 17.3 second You just saved yourself 8 seconds (times two if you count the next move to cut the next sheet. Of course if you lay things out right you can END the cut close to the opposite end and park the gantry in LOAD position so all you save is the rapid back to the beginning on the next sheet. Lay it out so the next pierce is close to the end of the previous cut and PRESTO not rapids needed! Lets be generous and say you save a whole minute more of time per job.

You would do better to cut out coffee breaks, prohibit bathroom runs and no lunch. "The beatings will continue until morale improves"

I don't know if you have spent much time around a big heavy open machine running at 1000 IPM but it's real easy to have a lapse in concentration (fatigue from no breaks) and find you have to deal with a machine that can move faster than you can.

We found over years of production that refining the artwork and CAM process saves a lot more time than shaving seconds off on rapids. If you cut artwork time down from 30 minutes to 20 minutes per job you save HOURS a day.

The analysis of stepper VS servo is full of holes. Beware of vendors that only have one pony. If you sell steppers and bash servos as being too expensive, too hard to setup and too hard to make work, then you are a motor bigot. If you make sweeping statements that steppers are junk and servos are magic, then you are a motor bigot. It's much like the argument of Diesel VS Gas engines. There are definitive pro's and con's of each technology. One is not "better" than the other. You have to profile what job each has to perform in order to start moving to one side or the other.

You can make a Stepper based system produce 600, 800 of even 1000 IPM. You give up torque and acceleration. Until the gantry weight gets excessive (200 + lbs) the need for servos is questionable. If it makes you feel better, than by all means go servo but be aware that "Smart" motors have some major engineering drawbacks. They are basically Motor Drivers with processor based motion controllers built onto a servo motor. The communication is serial (RS485) so the control software has to match the motion hardware. There are no alternatives. The one element that shortens the life of electronics is heat. So you place the drivers (hot) on the Motor (hot) and they heat each other You have to derate both. The processor (smart part of the motor) has to run in a hostile environment. Then there is the source and cost of a replacement. You don't just replace a 140.00 driver or a 200.00 motor....you buy a whole new axis at 4 times those amounts and it 's not something you can just get from a local industrial supply.

I'm not sure a comparison between a Torchmate and a DynaTorch is anywhere close to being apple to apples. If you toss in PlasmaCAM you have even less commonality. One of the few common threads of the three is they each are proprietary and have no third party vendors for after market upgrades. Doing any other process beside plasma is difficult to impossible. Of the three, PlasmaCAM is to most "secret" about their "stuff". to the point of paranoia. Open the control box on a PCAM unit and you just voided your warranty. Torchmate is the least closed. Why is all that important? Maybe it's not to you today. I actually heard one guy list having only one source of parts, support, repair and upgrades as a "feature" (less things to think about). Sounds more like a lack of choices to me.

So if it's about production I can set up two cheaper tables, run them with one operator and get lots more production per hour. Give me two guys with one loading, cleaning,fetching, while the other sets up the jobs and keeps both machines cutting and you can turn out an awesome amount of work per shift.

I envy you guys that are so busy you have to be 100% productive. Especially in the current economy. Any minute the machine is idle money is being wasted. It MUST be true: The recession is OVER!

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

[magma-joe]

Torchhead, could your opinion be tainted? Don't you stand to profit from people with 'open' systems?

[slammedxonair]

Well my machine only runs a couple hours a week right now but I'm more less asking about cut quality than anything really. My market demands good looking parts and no I don't have the money for a laser like 80% of my competition. So quality is my most important factor.

[Torchhead]

Torchhead, could your opinion be tainted? Don't you stand to profit from people with 'open' systems?

DAMN! you figured me out! I have components that I can sell to guys that use MACH3 or EMC. Of course there are others in the open market that I have to compete with so I can't really lay the wood to the users. I never try to hide the fact that I sell CNC electronics (I sign each post with my real name and company website). As a sneaky way to get more business I post lots of help for CNC guys and even maintain a full time Yahoo Support site. I am deluded into thinking we have some pretty high end technology for not a lot of money. Notice how I cleverly twist the subject around to suggest that perhaps the marketing voodoo needs to be overlooked and it's better to have options?

BTW all opinions are tainted. That is why they are opinions.

One of the advantages I do have is I have talked to hundreds of owners of different tables. After a few years of that you start to pick up on certain trends. There is a lot I know about the various designs and vendors: Good, Bad and Ugly. I keep them to myself except where a person stands to be a victim of fraud. I am a little more outspoken on my list (Hey, it's MY list).

I do think it's important to know that a lot of the criteria used to shop for CNC tables is hollow.

Come, be free, and dance with the OPEN Group :wee: kiss the whales and hug the lobsters. Make a tree your friend :rainfro: Feel the tingle of my calmy capitalist fingers sliding into your pockets!

TOM Caudle
WWW.CandCNC.com
Totally Modular CNC Electronics.

[WSS]

Torchhead,
Even if I had two cheap/stepper driven/open source machines, I still have an obligation to make a profit. That way I can employ people. Nothing relieves a business owner of their obligation to make profit. I work hard at it. My guys work with me (the ones who stay) and they reap the benefit as well. Anyway, wasn't it you who said "never step away from the machine" or you will be replaced by the village idiot? how does one guy run two machines? Even an idiot costs money!

I do set my goal for 100% production (laugh and tease all you want). If I can finish a job in 6 hours instead of 8, then I have 2 hours to spend with my family. And..... in "this current economy" (not you obviously) it is more important to watch your production and how it effects the bottom line. And you are very correct, every minute a machine is idle, money is wasted especially if there is a guy on the clock.

Slammed, I want to address your last post here. That you are talking about cut quality. Well, maybe someone who has some objective input will reply. Anyone? I don't have a clue how to get good quality cuts. So I will sit back and "read" and "learn".

WSS

[magma-joe]

Torchhead, I as an owner operator do not stand to make one cent when I offer my experiences or advice. 99% of the members on this forum are owners or people who desire to purchase or build a CNC plasma. You as a vendor need us to profit from. You patrol this site looking for potential customers and then try to steer them your direction with your views which are clearly slanted and twisted in your favor. In addition, common sense and previous life experience tells me to be suspicious of the information you provide.

You are the only vendor on this forum that so openly pushes their negative views about other vendors products / systems. As an owner of one of the products you bash, I know some of the things you say are false. By bashing other companies products it is clear you are trying to steer people to you and your 'open' system views. After all you need to profit from us to keep your business going.

I view this site as a forum for owners or future owners of CNC machines. I am open to vendors providing support for their own products and general information about the process involved, however in your case I believe you cross the line. For a business to openly bash their competition on a public forum is unprofessional. It also does not work.

I am also curious, perhaps I am wrong but I never see any of the common vendor paid for 'popup advertisments' for your company while I am viewing the site? Do you pay to push your company on this site?

[Torchhead]

If I were like some of the other vendors "trolling" for sales it would be a LOT easier to do display ads and spam mails. I have committed a lot of hours and time to the CNC and DIY communities. Not that it matters much but I am co-owner of CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO yahoo forum that was the early catalysis for the Hobby CNC market. Review my posts here over the years. It has been, and remains, to help the DIY guys on the lists.

Does it make any difference that I built a profitable steel cutting business and have hundreds of hours doing artwork, CAM, and standing at the table cutting? How about the fact I have been involved in dozens of table builds myself and seen hundreds of others?

I started working in electronics in 1965. I worked my way through engineering school as a TV repair guy. I have held jobs over the years in pure electronics design (including a stint in the 80's designing cards for the new fangled PC) all the way to upper management. I have almost 40 years of electronics involvement. I was head of IT in a huge manufacturing company. I have worked in the communications field. I have run several of my own companies including a Hardware (and later software) integration company. I was first introduced to CNC when it used paper tape input and everything was programmed by hand. I was contracted to fix and maintain large vertical mills and punch presses and was often buried in the guts of the complex controllers.

I started woodworking as a hobby over 30 years ago. I have a whole shop full of woodworking tools. 15 years ago I got interested in metalworking and bought a lathe and mill-drill and taught myself machining. I'm not a great welder but I can hold a pretty good bead. I studied metallurgy and tried my hand at heat treating and even a little blacksmithing.

Do I have opinons? You betcha. Most of them I keep to myself. I am somewhat unique in the vendor ranks as I started out as a user and went through a long painful learning curve and wish there had been more "been there, done that" guys willing to share. I did my first CNC designs to use myself and only started selling them when other hobby guys wanted a lower cost alternative.

If you notice, I don't comment over on the vendor specific threads where the love-fest for a specific table is held. When you step into the open forum then it's another story.
It's interesting that you would call my observations of a technology as "bashing". Telling facts and reasons is not bashing.

I have the ability to look at the deeper technical aspects of a design (including the physics as well as electronics) and see things the average user may not. Did I say acceleration is more important than speed? Well it is. Did I mention that smoothness of motion is more important that 3 decimal places of accuracy?

Do I have an agenda? Guilty! I want the guys out there that have worked hard for the money to have all the facts and consider the advantages and disadvantages of the different approaches. Does it help my cause when a builder/buyer chooses a course that offers more options, more flexibility and a wider sphere of support? Once again Guilty.

Since my input does not appear to be objective I won't address the accuracy issue in detail.

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

[Torchhead]

I know some of the things you say are false.

.

Line them out and I will address them. If I am mistaken I will acknowledge it in public. I can offer specific sources and technical examples in my defense.

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

[aghobby]

I'n my opinion, all machine are good if they match the customer requirements. We sell small plasma cutting table at 15 000$ and large plasma/drill combo close to 350 000$. Do the higher price machine is better that the low cost one? No, they are built according same quality control, came quality wires ...But they are simply designed for 2 customer different needing. If a customer come and want to cut 15 sheet of melamine a day, we can propose a 25 000$ machine without tool changer but if the customer want to cut 250 sheet a day, then we sell a machine with fully automatic loading/unloading system running rapid at 3500ipm and acceleration close to 1G. The best machine is the appropriate machine sizing according the customer needs....Same pattern for a plasma, waterjet, router. Hobbyist card, stuff and software will work up to a certain point(mach3, emc etc...) but when we face some high tech performance like 3500IPM with a resolution of .00001, you need to switch to a different technologie, we could not make a 15 000$ machine using a 45 000$ controller!!! I always like to have my customer to compare their need to a car . If you only want to drive from point A to B a small Echo will do the job fine, trying to sell you a Mercesdes will not be a good seller job. If you want to go from A to B at 200mph and staying on the road in abrupt curves, then you need a Ferrari...Purchasing an Echo will be a bad choice...But do the Ferrari is better than an Echo? I don't want to start a debate here, but both are build using quality material and quality standard and have an excellent warranty, maybe more warranty on the Echo!!!

Thanks,
Alex
www.ebfcnc.com

[slammedxonair]

WOW TALK ABOUT A THREAD HI-JACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please do not post your crap in here unless you have personal experiance with the machines I asked about thanks.

[magma-joe]

MORE vendors trying to make sales............................

[aghobby]

(slammedxonair)I have personal experience with both machine...(magma-joe)I'm not trying to make any sales...We don't make any equipement for the hobby or small business market anyway.
Just want to clarify , if i was mis-understood(french is my main speaking) both of them are good product, just catch up the one that will meet your requirements close to the budget you have. A business that make poor product will don't last more than a few month...Both Dynatorch and Torchmate are in the business for a long time !!! As from my previous post: The best machine is the appropriate machine sizing according the customer needs....

[jimcolt]

I believe the original post in this thread was in regards to different types and manufacturers of cnc plasma machines.....and had questions in regards to what is actually different.
I can be considered a vendor because I work for Hypertherm, but I also have been cnc cutting metal and fabricating most everything in my home shop for over 30 years. On top of that I have had the opportunity to work with the majority of cnc plasma cutting machine manufacturers (worldwide....around 85 OEM cnc plasma machine manufacturers!) over the years...and from that I have developed my own list of criteria that categorizes the different types of cutting machines depending on the particular market focus that they were designed for. You can buy a cnc plasma for $10,000 and you can buy one for a milion dollars......and there are very few valid comparisons between the two...except that they both accept CAD drawn part files and turn them into custom cut pieces of metal.

The category listing of cnc machines is based on: Price, size, precision, productivity of different machines. There of course is overlap in each catagory....but each machine buyer has their own set of criteria that is most important in the procurement of a machine. Some want a cnc machine that is within a price range.....some are most concerned with cut quality, some need to contour bevel their parts, and some need the fastest, most productive machine possible, whicle others need a 50' wide by 350' long cutting table. It would be nice if the lowest cost machines could do all of the above...but the best technology and performance comes with a price.

So....here are my basic categories:

1. Entry level or Hobby class machines. Typically smaller than 5' x 10', use a PC as the cnc control, are designed for use with non high frequency start, entry level air plasma systems. Low to medium tolerance expectations. Price range: under $20k
2. HVAC machines. Air plasma. Specifically designed for high speed cutting of ductwork...low tolerance, industrial duty cycle machines...typically 5' x 10'...with an industrially hardened PC based cnc control and proprietary ductdesign and cutting software.....plate rider height control. Less than $50k.
3. Industrial small gantry machines. Typically low tolerance, heavy duty construction machines equipped with an air plasma or mid range industrial class plasma. Usually 6' x 12' or smaller. High duty cycle, low tolerance cutting designed for years of multishift use. Arc voltage height control....less than $60k
4. Industrial medium gantry machines, typically 8 x 12 or smaller, better drives and motion ways to produce medium to high tolerance parts. Heavy duty construction designed for many years of multishift high duty cycle use. Equipped with mid range or high definition plasma....up to 2 torches, full featured torch height control as well as up to 6 oxy-fuel torches and plate markers. Less than $120k
5. Industrial Precision machines. Typically hold tight tolerances under high duty cycle multi shift operations. Up to 2 plasma torches with precision height control and PC based industrial cnc. Usually smaller than 8 x 12. heavy duty, yet lightweight construction for maximum accelleration and accuracy at high speed. Usually under $150k.
6. Large industrial gantry machines. Up to 50' wide, unlimited length. Up to 4 plasma torches with full featured height control...up to 16 oxyfuel torches as well as multiple plate markers. PC based cnc industrial control. Full rotating contour bevel plasma cutting on some machines. High definition class plasma. Priced between $250k and 1 milion dollars.

You can imagine the productivity expectations out of some of these pricey industrial machines......cycle to cycle cut time reductions are important...as is cut quality, repeatability, and reliability.

On machines that are purchased for high productivity....fast cut speeds...and just as important, extremely fast indexing speeds between cuts (typically up to 1000 ipm) are necessary to get a bigger pile of good parts off the table at the end of the day!

On my cnc machine in my home shop..as many know it is a PlasmaCam...I don't care so much about cycle to cycle times...or extreme productivity. I do care about getting relaitively accurate parts.....but mostly I care about reliability and ease of use.

Jim Colt

[NolesMetals]

Jimcolt
On my cnc machine in my home shop..as many know it is a PlasmaCam

Jim, what led you to go withthe PlasmaCam table? I am currently considering (what seems to be the 3 main ones) - PlasmaCam, Torchmate and Dynatorch. All have thier pro's and con's. I would liketo hear from someone that has experiance. Not asking for any bashing of any product, just what lead you to your decision with PlasmaCam over the other systems?

Thanks,
Mike
Noles Metal Products

[slammedxonair]

Yea the main reason I wanted to start this thread is to see if I picked the right choice goin with the Dynatoch and see if any other the other machines would have been better. From the way I see it when I bought the machine, plasma cam and torchmate were hobby machines, the Dynatorch was a step up bridging the gap between those to and the Koike (sp?) Machine that was in the 40k range and ou of budget. I use it for making brackets mostly with 3/8, 1/2, and 9/16 holes and slotted holes for componets to bolt into. Some of the brackets are then formed and or welded into larger or more complex shapped parts. Here are some examples, (excuse the low quality blackberry pics lol) And like I mentioned before alot of the big companys in the industry use lasers, one of my wholesale drop ship suppliers uses a torchmate (my cuts seem to be smoother than theirs and not kinda jagged looking but there holes seem to have less kerf to them. Maybe using 40 amp tips where I use 60? I think they alsy have a TD plasma.) And then I just found out another one of my competitors uses a Dynatorch as well. I do also use the machine for some 16ga art stuff here and there as well with the fine cut tips, sometimes sub work for sign shops.

[jimcolt]

I like all of the entry level machines...as long as they are equipped to make the plasma work as well as it can. This means that motion has to be fluidic and at the right speed...and that the height control needs to be able to accurately find pierce height befor every cut and maintain cut height during the cut...

I chose the PlasmaCam for a couple of reasons.

1. When I bought my first PlasmaCam about 8 or 9 years ago...I was not well versed at CAD drawing.....and the conversion of the drawing into an easy to cut program. After reviewing almost all available CAD/Cam packages....I found the (at least for me) the PlasmaCam software was extremely intuitive and easy to learn. I cut my first part about 20 minutes after finishing the machine assembly.....having never even done a CAD drawing prior to that!
2. While I wasn't in need of precision or high productivity....or a machine that I could drop a 1" plate on without damage...I did want a machine with a simple design that I felt comfortable troubleshooting and maintaining without outside help. I liked the internal self diagnostics in the PlasmaCam software as well as the very complete manual with its simplistic, step by step troubleshooting processes. Generally if something goes wrong...an error message pops up on the PC screen....and steers you to the solution.

My first PlasmaCam was the original 98-z....it was well designed..the way a Model T was designed. If you had mechanical skills you could keep it running forever....the height control was an electro-mechanical design that used two limit switches and spring tension....simple for me to keep running...and I used the heck out of that machine for 7 years....replaced a ton of drive belts...and a limit switch or two. I then got interested in the 3rd generation PlasmaCam machine as it had been upgraded with bigger x y and z servos (not steppers, encoder feedback servos on x and y), with a newly designed arc voltage based THC with ohmic sensing for pierce height, drive belt sizing and pulley sizing was improved......and the controller and operator panel were improved with better features to make the operators job easier. I sold the old machine for 75% of what I had paid for it 7 years or so earlier...and bought the new DHC2. Best thing I ever did.....I can now (with the THC capability) progarm parts and walk away and let it cut. I never have had to change a drive belt.....and the cut edges are smooth and accurate. It is of lightweight construction as compared to some of the other machines such as torchmate and dynatorch.....but that may actually make the performance a bit better from an acceleration point of view.

I suspect that Dynatorch and Torchmate have the ability to cut just as well as the PlasmaCam if similary equipped. It would be interesting to see price comparisons....

The PlasmaCam has worked perfectly for my needs....occasional production but usually for hot rod, tractor, architectural brackets and anything else that I can think of building in my shop.....I have cut up to 1" on it with my Hypertherm Powermax45....which is rated for 3/8" production cutting! I also have had real good support from PlasmaCam...hey used to have a bad reputation in this area....but it seems tat while they were making machine design improvements they also improved their customer support functions as well!

Jim