[bigspike]

... While I was there running the clapped out poorly maintained machine they use ...

To me that says a lot about the future of this company.

To those who ordered kits and still haven't gotten them, I hate to say it, but Tommy doesn't appear to value kit sales as highly as turnkey sales.

I find this confusing since with kit sales all you need to do is order some things and gather parts to complete a sale. The in house machined parts can be made along with turnkey parts. Make 9 instead of 6, need a part for a turn key ... make a couple more for inventory and kit sales that have already been paid for. The CNC parts can be cut while working on a turn key mill.

If volume exceeds capacity then it is time to add another mill to the production line.

To anyone waiting longer than 90 days, for parts for a kit that they paid for, I recommend they contact their credit card company and the Attorney General for the State of Connecticut. Continuing to take orders that will get filled "someday" is tantamount to fraud. Credit card rules require shipment within a certain time frame. He will be out of business very quickly if he cannot accept credit cards. He may just need a wake up call to get his act together and fulfill the orders that have been paid for and to ship as promised.

I know of several companies that have as much as a 2 year backlog that both tell you up front and don't take a dime until they are about ready to ship. They have a waiting list and will contact you periodically to verify your interest and will notify you of any change in the schedule. When for example people in front of you cancel and your order is pushed forward. They will also move your name back in the list if you have a temporary financial hardship. These are products costing $5,000 to $10,000

If it were me, I would accept a reasonable deposit no sooner than 4 weeks from the date of shipment and then make sure I shipped on time. If a problem arises communication is key. Calling the customer and explaining the problem goes a long way towards maintaining good customer relations. Prompt refunds on request and suspending new orders until the schedule is back on track are essential.

The absolute worst thing you can do is take new orders and sell parts to them as a turnkey mill when kit buyers wait months and months and months.

[InterferenceFit]

To me that says a lot about the future of this company.

Not necessarily, they use the machine for making brackets and drilling/tapping operations mostly. If the shop was immaculate and the machine was spotless, people would complain they do too much cleaning to work. The machine I'm talking about is not the machine that they run their fixtures on. They have 3 mills and they use each for a different purpose: CNC production, CNC basic operations, manual. Could they maintain their mill better, sure. Is it indicative of a positive or negative future for the company, no. The problems people are talking about on the forums will determine whether they are around in 5 years, not the machine they use to make parts that have tolerances in the fractions as opposed to tenths.

I find this confusing since with kit sales all you need to do is order some things and gather parts to complete a sale. The in house machined parts can be made along with turnkey parts. Make 9 instead of 6, need a part for a turn key ... make a couple more for inventory and kit sales that have already been paid for. The CNC parts can be cut while working on a turn key mill.

Yes and no. They have to do the lathe operations on the ball screws. There's also different lengths for the X & Y extensions. And keep in mind this is a company that can barely find the time to get things done as it is. Sure they could run the parts they make on fixtures well in advance, and from the looks of it while I was there, they do have most of those parts around. Would I do it the way you're talking about, yes, but it's not my business.

If volume exceeds capacity then it is time to add another mill to the production line.

I don't think that their mills are the holdup. I think it's lathe capacity, and sheer lack of enough available labor.

To anyone waiting longer than 90 days, for parts for a kit that they paid for, I recommend they contact their credit card company and the Attorney General for the State of Connecticut. Continuing to take orders that will get filled "someday" is tantamount to fraud. Credit card rules require shipment within a certain time frame. He will be out of business very quickly if he cannot accept credit cards. He may just need a wake up call to get his act together and fulfill the orders that have been paid for and to ship as promised.

Fair enough. I can't say that I'm ready to go that route, but I can understand the guys that feel they need to. If Tommy isn't providing you with acceptable service, then that is why these rules exist, to give you a means to ensure fair treatment.

I know of several companies that have as much as a 2 year backlog that both tell you up front and don't take a dime until they are about ready to ship. They have a waiting list and will contact you periodically to verify your interest and will notify you of any change in the schedule. When for example people in front of you cancel and your order is pushed forward. They will also move your name back in the list if you have a temporary financial hardship. These are products costing $5,000 to $10,000

This is really where the difference between good customer service departments stand out from a company without one. I have to say that I 100% agree with you. Unfortunately for IH, there is no customer service department, and any time Tommy spends updating people on their status puts him that much further behind. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but a little empathy(which some people have been overly generous with, waiting as much as a year to still not have their kit) could go a long way.

If it were me, I would accept a reasonable deposit no sooner than 4 weeks from the date of shipment and then make sure I shipped on time. If a problem arises communication is key. Calling the customer and explaining the problem goes a long way towards maintaining good customer relations. Prompt refunds on request and suspending new orders until the schedule is back on track are essential.

Agreed, but I wouldn't take money till I start assembly of that particular customers machine, would make it easier to predict finished time.

The absolute worst thing you can do is take new orders and sell parts to them as a turnkey mill when kit buyers wait months and months and months.

No the worst thing is to not get anything out, kit or otherwise. The second worst thing is to piss off your customer base.


Fortunately for IH, their product when setup and working, hands down beats anything else available in it's price range. Nothing has the travels or servos of the IH mill for less than $20k+ unless you build it yourself. I hold out hope that Tommy finds an amazing machinist that will allow him to get things organized better, and assembled faster so he can continue to build the business. Time will tell.

[ksanalytical]

Well said. I make no apologies for Tommy either, but the fact is that he has a unique product.

I talked to a new employee on the phone yesterday so I know that Tommy is trying to get things done. Hopefully that will speed along some of the orders.

I can't argue with any of the complaints posted here, and I wouldn't fault anyone for taking action after waiting so long for delivery, but now that it's here, I'm very glad that I didn't compromise with a Tormach.

One thing that has really impressed me is how complicated this CNC conversion is. It would have taken me a year of my spare time (I travel alot) to accomplish something like this. The videos on IHCNC don't really do it justice. The oiling system alone would have taken me weeks.

Ken

[jetflatline]

Unfortunately for IH, there is no customer service department, and any time Tommy spends updating people on their status puts him that much further behind.

Tommy shouldn't be answering the phone or updating order status or doing any other menial tasks. This is why you hire assistants or interns or what have you to do those tasks for you.

A friend of mine who is a tattoo artist explained it to me like this: Every hour I tattoo someone, I make $X. Every hour I'm on the phone or running errands I make zero dollars. So paying someone even half of my hourly rate for an hour or two a day makes sense because I'm at least making half of X instead of zero.

[InterferenceFit]

Tommy shouldn't be answering the phone or updating order status or doing any other menial tasks. This is why you hire assistants or interns or what have you to do those tasks for you.

A friend of mine who is a tattoo artist explained it to me like this: Every hour I tattoo someone, I make $X. Every hour I'm on the phone or running errands I make zero dollars. So paying someone even half of my hourly rate for an hour or two a day makes sense because I'm at least making half of X instead of zero.

Agreed, but as I said, not my company, I don't make those decisions.

What I will say is that in manufacturing right now there is a real shortage of people trained, trainable, or qualified to run machinery(or in IH's case build machinery). There are a lot of operators, but not many machinists. Where I work, we've been trying to find someone to start taking some of the load off of me in tube bending, plate rolling, etc. We've been looking for 3 years. We've got a couple of guys that are coming along, but I couldn't ask any of them to design tooling or do complex prototyping, because they just don't understand enough about how things work.

It's a lack of people who really understand the why of things. It's no big deal if you want to set up a plant and fill it with machines and people running the same thing every day because the expectation is that someone else will be overseeing them all and keeping them going. That kind of manufacturing just isn't competitive anymore, China spanks us. We have to be a manufacturing country that relies on flexible solutions that can adapt to the changing demands of manufacturing. The companies with the talent to maximize the value of their machines are the ones that will be in business 10 years from now.

My hope is that the IH mill I've ordered, operated efficiently, and with my brain power behind the work going into it, will allow me to find a niche in small volume machine work, while allowing me to pursue building guitar pickups as a product. Oh yeah, and make bike parts, and whatever else I dream up.

How does this relate to IH? It's obvious that there are people who have had a very poor experience working with them. I make no apologies, I don't work for them. Could the company be run better? Probably. But keep in mind that half of the company was lost in the spring, so all of a sudden what was once a company with lots of praise for customer service (check older forum posts) no longer had anyone to do it and still have someone to make machines. So I suspect that for a month almost everything stood still. What would you do if your dad died? Right then they are 4 weeks behind, and the name of the game is survival. Finding a good machinist, or office worker, who you then have no time to train, is probably low on the list of priorities. How long do you think it takes to train someone to provide good customer service for a machine building company? Surely you don't think there are a lot of people out there that could walk into that specialized of a business and not have at least a month worth of them bugging you with EVERY question that a customer asks them about the machine?

To be clear this is reading between the lines on my part from things I have gathered via interweb RE:suspect but probably true, and in person RE: suspect since you have to trust my judgment. Do I like Tommy? Yes. Do I empathize? Yes. Am I prepared to tell him how to run his business, of which I have little real knowledge of? No. Am I willing to wait forever for a machine? No. I have given him a date I need my machine by, and that's it. If it's not on a truck that day I will have a refund, and buy a Tormach. Period. A small machine is better than no machine and missing a deadline because of it. If this was a hobby machine I might wait longer for it, but it's not.

Once all is said and done, we've had a worse delivery fiasco where I work on the purchase of a $160,000 plate roller. 8 months. Delayed over and over. In the end it was a great machine that has really taken off.

In a perfect world IH mills would be made 10 miles from me so I could buy half the business. I think that the demand is out there, it just needs to be met.

[jetflatline]

Agreed, but as I said, not my company, I don't make those decisions.

What I will say is that in manufacturing right now there is a real shortage of people trained, trainable, or qualified to run machinery(or in IH's case build machinery).

I completely believe that.

However, my last IH shipment contained a number of items with *hand-written* labels applied to the parts.

Think about this a second or three. CNC kits are probably all the same components, right? Instead of Tommy (or some other skilled operator) writing out labels by hand, why isn't there someone making minimum wage using a computer to print out labels for items?

Let's say J. Doe is a skilled machinist making $40/hr (Pittsburgh wages). Do you really want them writing out labels by hand for $40/hr? Or would you rather J. Doe's kid, a part-time/intern, print those out on a computer for $5/hr?

[jetflatline]

No. I have given him a date I need my machine by, and that's it. If it's not on a truck that day I will have a refund, and buy a Tormach. Period.

Well, I hope that works out for you. I think that most of us would rather have the goods than the refund.

[InterferenceFit]

Well, I hope that works out for you. I think that most of us would rather have the goods than the refund.

Me too! The only reason I won't wait is that I have someone who is paying me to make them parts. No machine, no $4000 order. I have had a machine on order since April. Ken was the order before mine, and his machine shipped out the day I flew into CT and stopped in at IH. I then spent 2 days the beginning of the following week in the shop playing with one of their machines and watching them do 90% of the assembly to my machine. Encoders are the last thing he needs to finish assembly, so no excuses. I really hope that if he is unable to deliver my machine on time I will not have to go to the ends of the earth to get my deposit back, but I will if necessary, and it will not stop me from placing an order with Tormach the next day if he doesn't make the ship date. I have the money to do it, for which I am very grateful. If that happens I'll probably always regret not having the bigger nicer machine, but money talks, and I made a delivery promise I WILL keep.

I have wanted an IH mill since I first saw Bob Warfield's site. I dont really have a need but the price is reasonable and the capabilities are vast for a home based machine. I personally want a manual and convert it to cnc, maybe with their kit (most likely). After seeing the threads here it did make me skeptical. Not on the performance or quality, just delivery. I did place a call to IH last week of which I havent returned. In 1 day Tommy personally returned my call, gave me a different phone number (maybe his cell?) and told me he would be happy to talk to me anytime til 3 am. I might have said I was interested in 1 of his mills in the message but not that I was going to purchase 1 right then. He seemed cheerful, alert and ready to help. If he is straight up on the delivery when and if I order something great. If not I will post differently. However I was expecting neglect of a returned call and that was not the case at all. The range and rigidity would be great too.

I hope everything works out for you. I agree that this is the machine to get, but be prepared to wait for it. If it's a hobby thing and you have the time, you'll be glad you waited, that is if you don't have the experience a couple of people have(italicized to indicate that I'm sure that the events did occur as jetflatline has indicated) had. Tommy has always been pretty quick to return most of my calls. Most of the times very quickly, and only a couple of times slowly or not at all. I'm convinced the product is the bees knees. We'll see if Tommy is able to catch up and excel. I'm hopeful he does because he's a nice guy with some very interesting and intriguing ideas for the future of IH CNC. I hope this time is looked back upon as "that time" where he had to kick it in gear and he really got a hold of his business and figured out how to make it grow successfully. If not there is going to be a void that needs to be filled in the high end hobby, low end production mill market segment.

Originally Posted by InterferenceFit View Post

Agreed, but as I said, not my company, I don't make those decisions.

What I will say is that in manufacturing right now there is a real shortage of people trained, trainable, or qualified to run machinery(or in IH's case build machinery).

I completely believe that.

However, my last IH shipment contained a number of items with *hand-written* labels applied to the parts.

Think about this a second or three. CNC kits are probably all the same components, right? Instead of Tommy (or some other skilled operator) writing out labels by hand, why isn't there someone making minimum wage using a computer to print out labels for items?

Let's say J. Doe is a skilled machinist making $40/hr (Pittsburgh wages). Do you really want them writing out labels by hand for $40/hr? Or would you rather J. Doe's kid, a part-time/intern, print those out on a computer for $5/hr?

My view is that Tommy needs someone to make his machines so he can run the business, and print labels, as you point out. I may be completely wrong, but I don't think he needs an office worker as much as he needs someone to build and implement his ideas. It's hard to hand off any business related work in a small business to anyone not intimately involved in the success or failure of the company. Just my observations from working for a couple of small businesses, take with a grain of salt and dash of common sense. I would bet anyone $100 that he doesn't have a single employee working for more than $18 an hour.(Don't read into this that he doesn't have any skilled employees, I've seen the changes the new guy he has making electrical cabinets has made, and there are major improvements, easily as professional looking as any other machine on the market) If he could find a machinist worth $40 an hour to work for him, I bet after 6 months he would wonder why he didn't find one sooner.


*All of the above statements were made after enough good Belgian beer was consumed that I wasn't too concerned about making complete sense, if there is something that doesn't agree with your point of view, assume that I meant it to, and that we're really good friends. You know, like since high school, when we were all losers that were good at math and science. *