[bobeson]

I have a Tormach probe, and I really like using it. I'd say that overall, the Tormach probe is way overpriced and rather fragile, but it is nonetheless an indispensible part of my workflow now. I think every CNC machine tool should have a probe as standard equipment.

I mostly use my probe as an edge finder, but I also use it for metrology, center finding, and many other random tasks during job setup. For my 16-part fixture, I wrote gcode to probe all the raw stock placed in each fixture location, and adjust the roughing passes dynamically to account for stock dimension variations.

While I find the Tormach probe to be very useful, I am also dismayed at the cost and fragility of the probe. I've rebuilt mine several times now. I found a good source for replacements ruby tips at cmms.com, (~$50 each vs, $200 from Tormach). If I were more cautious I wouldn't break as many probe tips, of course, but I do like experimentation, and that comes with risks. I just wish Mach had a modal feature for probing that stops all motion whenever the probe trips. Then, even if you're in the middle of a rapid, if you crash into something unexpected (rearranged setup clamps are the big risk for me) the controller would stop the machine before the probe breaks. It seems like such a simple feature, and should already exist, but instead I have to hover over the estop button whenever I'm trying out a new program/setup.

Anyhow, if you can swing the cost of the Tormach probe, you will find it to be an extremely useful tool to own. I suspect the Wildhorse probe would be nearly as useful. I did find notable accuracy differences between the Tormach ruby probe tip and the steel probe tip they provide. I don't know much about probe tips, but I suppose the ruby tips are more spherical than the steel tips? I don't know if the Wildhorse probe tip can be swapped for a ruby tip or not, or if that even matters much or not. I suppose the difference would mostly by noticeable when you're performing metrology, particularly at multiple angles of incidence to the tip. For simple x/y/z edge finding, I suspect the repeatability of a steel probe tip will be sufficient for most users.

I would love to have a wireless probe living in an ATC. I'd use that thing constantly. Someboy needs to market a TTS-integrated wireless probe for $250 retail. If you take apart a Tormach probe, you'll see just how simple the mechanisms are, and how easily it could be made for much, much less than they charge. I just hope that somebody can come up with a better calibration method than the 3-screw adjustment scheme that is currently standard. It works, but is rather inelegant.

[mayhugh1]

I've been using the Tormach probe for several years and have been very happy with it. In fact I would say it has become indespensible in my workflow. I went through the calibration procedure (very touchy and took a good while to get near perfection) and mine seems to repeat within a few tenths even when rotated in the spindle. This says something about the concentricity of the design. The unit itself is very heavy and I expect the internals were designed to handle some serious level of crash. I think the stems on the ruby probes are carbide and are designed to snap in the event of a crash. At least mine did during the single (x2) crash that I experienced. I looked around for a more inexpensive alternative for the tip but didn't find a carbide stem/ruby tip replacement for much cheaper than the Tormach and so I bought my replacements from them.
There is an app note on Tormach's website warning about a potential race condition with VB scripts and especially those which are used to write the otherwise great probing screens in their software. Anyone using a probe needs to carefully read this and take it seriously. It warns the user to set the probe tool number manually before entering into any of the probing screens and to not rely on the probing screens to do it for you (using default probe tool number is #99). I had seen the software occasionally send the probe into a wrong (but always safe) direction if this is not done and became lax about remembering to do this step manually. By the way, this is a problem with the way Mach3 handles VB and there has been much discussion in the Mach forums about it along with some suggestions for software writers to handle it, but it seems to remain an sporadic problem to this day. It depends upon the version of Mach, the particular computer being used, the VB writer's particular style of code writing and who knows what else. Brian, the current Mach3 author seems to think he will have a fix for it in mach4 which evidently contains an improved VB framework.

That said, one day that problem hit me square between the eyes (twice). I did the following:

1) Went to the x-y probing page and hit the X+ button to probe the workpiece from the left to set the x-axis to the edge of the workpiece. I forgot about the app note warning and let the probing screen automatically set the tool to #99, the default probe tool number - at least it was supposed to.
2)Then I did the same for the Y+ button.
3)Next I went into the Z probe page and using the pendant, moved the z-axis up and over into the center of the workpiece.
4)Next I hit the button on the screen to move the z axis downward in order to set the z offset.
5)So far so good
6)Next I left the probing screens and went to the MDI window and did a G0X0Y0 as a sanity check to the probing operations. At that instant the probe rapid'ed straight down into the workpiece and tried to obliterate itself.

Well, this turned into an expensive crash since I spent most of my time watching it happen and wondering WTF instead of hitting the E-Stop. Of course it snapped the probe tip off and drove the carbide stem into the workpiece and bottomed the probe body into the workpiece with all its torque the z-axis stepper could muster.
I was sure the probe was ruined. I had a spare tip and so I replaced the broken one. I checked the calibration of the probe and it had changed some (duh!) and so I re-calibrated it and the probe miraculously seemed to work as well as it did before.
I was sure I had made some stupid mistake since I had repeated those steps at least 100 times previously. What I had forgotten was that I had recently downloaded the latest version of the Tormach software whose VB was now behaving a bit differently than I was used to.
So I made up a new workpiece, put it into the vise, and repeated the exact same steps in the probing process. Of course, in hindsight it would have made sense to jog the z-axis up some before repeating the MDI check, but I didn't. BAM...I did the exact same thing again. I didn't have any more spare tips and this time the center return spring force seemed greatly weakened. Sometimes the probe didn't reliably return to its OFF position.
After all my experience with the Tormach probe, I felt good enough about it that I ordered a replacement probe and spare tip from Tormach and chalked up the second and deadly crash to my own stupidity. Nearly everything I make starts out being referenced and re-referenced with this probe and so I was afraid to go with anything else that was lighter duty. I have no experiece with the Workhorse probe other that holding one in my hand during a Mach conference in Knoxville several years ago (I believe the designer was making very small prototype batches for a remarkable $100 at that time.) - Terry

[ez3022]

Doh! A week after I sign the waiver Tormach posts the pcnc770 config program that allows changing the probe sense w/o signing your life away. Too late for me but kudo's to Tormach for opening this change up:

From the Tormach resources page:


9/17/10 - PCNC Config
Use this utility to calibrate spindle speed, configure probe sense, set up jog step increments for the jog shuttle, or enable fourth axis homing for your PCNC 1100 or 770 mill. Download the zip file to your desktop and then unzip it using winzip or other compression software.


Mark

[twocik]

ez3022

So it's ok to use third party probes now, without any consequences ?

[ez3022]

I cannot speak for Tormach but I doubt there was ever an issue with using a 3rd party probe. The issue was in giving the user access to low level Mach settings in order to modify the Tormach supported Mach config in order to reverse the probe sense.

In order to gain access to the probe sense setting you had to sign a waiver indicating that you understood the risks involved and that Tormach MAY not be able, or willing, to provide support as a result. Now that the new PCNCconfig for the 1100 supports toggling the probe sense just like the PCNC770, without opening access to the plethora of other settings, no waiver is required it seems so no support or waiver issue any longer.

If you have any concerns I'd call Tormach to get an answer before pushing the button. I 'waived' my life away a week before they released this. Bummer.

Mark

ez3022

So it's ok to use third party probes now, without any consequences ?

[David Bord]

I cannot speak for Tormach but I doubt there was ever an issue with using a 3rd party probe. The issue was in giving the user access to low level Mach settings in order to modify the Tormach supported Mach config in order to reverse the probe sense.

In order to gain access to the probe sense setting you had to sign a waiver indicating that you understood the risks involved and that Tormach MAY not be able, or willing, to provide support as a result. Now that the new PCNCconfig for the 1100 supports toggling the probe sense just like the PCNC770, without opening access to the plethora of other settings, no waiver is required it seems so no support or waiver issue any longer.

If you have any concerns I'd call Tormach to get an answer before pushing the button. I 'waived' my life away a week before they released this. Bummer.

Mark

Thats how I understand it as well..

[MichaelHenry]

I 'waived' my life away a week before they released this. Bummer.

I "waived" support on my mill right after purchase by disassembling and re-assembling it and still got excellent support. My approach to problems has been to ask for help in troubleshooting and to look for reasonable solutions. I expect that the solution will sometimes mean that I need to spend more money, especially if I've done something to cause the problem.

Mike

[ez3022]

Write up here:

http://www.tormach.com/blog/?p=1211

[twocik]

Ok the Tormach probe arrived today and was about to hook this bad boy up and start learning, but didn't see any kind of instructions.... I see tools in the box and was wondering if this is a plug and play item or do I need to adjust anything before so ?

If so how do I align the product, any tricks/tips ?



What a solid looking product !!

[rowbare]

Congrats on the new toy!

From the probe datasheet:

"Detailed information on using the probe is available in chapter 8 of the PCNC 1100 manual. It is available online at www.tormach.com."

bob

[saabaero]

The first thing you will want is to insure concentricity of the probe tip to the spindle. There is a proceedure spelled out but I just prefer to touch a small .0001" indicator to the the side of the probe tip and spin the probe by hand with the wire disconnected. I then adjust the set screws accordingly.

Since I reference all my tool lengths to the probe I put the probe in my tool height gauge (while electrically connected to the machine) and compress the tip vertically till the light comes on and then enter this value into tool 99 for the probe.

[twocik]

Ok I'll try this tomorrow. I didn't even think to look in the manual, checking it out now.


Thank you guys! Any other tips would be great....

[apeman88]

FYI in the LED in the WH probe. I bought one 2yrs ago a few months after it was available. Could never get the LED to work right... if it lights up... it won't be detected in Mach3... reverse the wires and it works in Mach3 but LED will not light up. I just ordered and received my 2nd WH probe (gonna use one for tool setting) and the new probe works perfectly (LED lights up and detected by Mach3 as well). The new probe is using a 560 ohm metal resistor and the old probe was using a 390 ohm carbon resistor. Tried putting in a 560 ohm and still the same. The problem is the old LED... emailed Arnie and he's gonna ship me the new LED to replace.

So if your WH probe is not working right... you might have the old style probe with old LED.

Ken

[netboss]

Ken,

Not saying this is your problem, but some circuits are so sensitive that the current flow through the LED will give a 'false' non-touch condition. The reason reversing the leads caused Mach3 to work is that the LED then became a blocking diode.

Try bumping the resistor value up to 1k or even 1.5k. LED may be dim, but it may allow both LED and probe to work.

IMHO it is very unlikely that the LED is the problem. LEDs are pretty generic and most have the same electrical characteristics. Since is lit up on the 1st Econo-Probe, it's not blown.

If anyone has a problem with an Econo-Probe, PM me and we (Wildhorse Innovations) will work with you to solve it, even to the point of repairing it ourselves if necessary.

We also have two special offers for fourm members. Discount code 'EP10' will give you a $10.00 discount on Econo-Probe, Econo-Probe Kit or DRO-350 Complete Kit. Also, we can offer 5% discount off of most all items from Shar's online catalog. PM me with a list of items you want and I will get you a quote.

(If anyone in the forum has purchased an Econo-Probe or DRO-350 in the last 30 days, PM me with your order number and we will issue a refund so that your total price paid equals the coupon price.)

And as always, you can save an additional 2% on ANY order by paying by check or money order.

FYI in the LED in the WH probe. I bought one 2yrs ago a few months after it was available. Could never get the LED to work right... if it lights up... it won't be detected in Mach3... reverse the wires and it works in Mach3 but LED will not light up. I just ordered and received my 2nd WH probe (gonna use one for tool setting) and the new probe works perfectly (LED lights up and detected by Mach3 as well). The new probe is using a 560 ohm metal resistor and the old probe was using a 390 ohm carbon resistor. Tried putting in a 560 ohm and still the same. The problem is the old LED... emailed Arnie and he's gonna ship me the new LED to replace.

So if your WH probe is not working right... you might have the old style probe with old LED.

Ken

[David Bord]

Now thats service!

[apeman88]

That's what I was thinking as well (LEDs are pretty generic) thus the reason I tried changing the resistor first. The LED that came with the first probe is very dim with either the 390ohm or 560ohm already. I will try it tomorrow and see. BTW... the LED on the 2nd probe even with 560ohm resistor, is very bright... thus the reason I was thinking maybe you are using a non standard LED with the new probe.

Regardless, thanks for sending a LED to me. Great service!

Ken

Ken,

Not saying this is your problem, but some circuits are so sensitive that the current flow through the LED will give a 'false' non-touch condition. The reason reversing the leads caused Mach3 to work is that the LED then became a blocking diode.

Try bumping the resistor value up to 1k or even 1.5k. LED may be dim, but it may allow both LED and probe to work.

IMHO it is very unlikely that the LED is the problem. LEDs are pretty generic and most have the same electrical characteristics. Since is lit up on the 1st Econo-Probe, it's not blown.

If anyone has a problem with an Econo-Probe, PM me and we (Wildhorse Innovations) will work with you to solve it, even to the point of repairing it ourselves if necessary.

We also have two special offers for fourm members. Discount code 'EP10' will give you a $10.00 discount on Econo-Probe, Econo-Probe Kit or DRO-350 Complete Kit. Also, we can offer 5% discount off of most all items from Shar's online catalog. PM me with a list of items you want and I will get you a quote.

(If anyone in the forum has purchased an Econo-Probe or DRO-350 in the last 30 days, PM me with your order number and we will issue a refund so that your total price paid equals the coupon price.)

And as always, you can save an additional 2% on ANY order by paying by check or money order.