[Reddish]

I did some further testing and compared 5V and 12V supply voltages.

Red.

[thoug]

Would you mind clarifying which part of your circuit is the optional addition for use with v1.5.

Jay, just the 20K resistor labeled R3 is removed and essentially replaced with a wire. So the pin on the pot would connect direct to the PG pin of the Super-PID.

I noticed that my schematic has two resistors labeled R3, I guess I'll have to fix that!

Todd

[thoug]

I did some further testing and compared 5V and 12V supply voltages.

Red, That looks like it should work just fine to use the 5V supply for the VFD on the G540. It would definitely be a cleaner setup without the voltage divider.

You still might want to experiment with a series resistor to raise the RC time constant when combined with the Super-PID on board capacitor. It might provide better filtering of the VFD output.

Todd

[gmfoster]

Thanks all for the replys, somebody need to keep me straight...Thanks Thoug for the schematic and reply as well. Somehow I thought when a command was send from Mach3 to G540 to either increase or decrease the rpm the G540 thru it's output would command the VFD or Super-PID to do such...
It's obvious when comes to electronics I'm green as cabbage, the only exposure to this sort of thing was me laying and solder thousands of strain gauges.... Ok, I got it now!

That's what make this world spin. I'm positive, machining is not everyone's strong suit either...

>>>>>Somehow I thought when a command was send from Mach3 to G540 to either increase or decrease the rpm the G540 thru it's output would command the VFD or Super-PID to do such...

That is what it does, but it isn't the tach signal...
Mach will output and to the 540 to set spindle speed. The G540 will convert that signal to an dc voltage whose value is directly related to the desired RPM. This voltage goes to the VFD or Super PID router control(instead of the center wiper of the control pot) and sets the speed of the router.. The Pid has to have feedback to know whether the router is slowing down or speeding up and the IR or hall effect tach is used internally by the PID speed control as the feed back signal. This same signal can also be feed back to mach to let you the operator know what the spindle speed is..
It is unlikely the things will work perfectly and the speed set will be exactly what you set so you indicated speed from the tach signal may not be what you thought you sent out via the mach out put through the g540...

Help any...?

[lancut]

Gmfoster, I appreciate your efforts. Will wire it per Thoug schematic. Thank you anyway.:wave:

[thoug]

Gmfoster, I appreciate your efforts. Will wire it per Thoug schematic. Thank you anyway.:wave:

What Gmfoster describes is exactly how my schematics are setup.

Todd

[Arbo]

Ok, I'm about ready to pull the trigger on buying one. I would have about 5 minutes ago except shipping time would put it on my front porch while I'm out of town. So I'll wait a week to order.

A couple questions. thoug's schematic looks good, but I don't use a smooth stepper (nor do I know what they are), so I'm guess i'd just bypass that part?

It seems most enclosures are custom made deals by everyone on here, is that correct?

I think I will mount mine off of the Z axis like another I recall seeing (was that yours gerry?), so I shouldn't need the extra sensor cable. So basic kit is really all I should need, and done by thoug's diagram would give me a setup that can be controlled via mach or switched to manual, which is good. I already have the router switched on and off through mach and a relay.

Guess I better look up replacement bearings for my router, might as well do that while I have it off the machine and apart, it is probably close to needing them.

[Arbo]

Forgot to ask, for a 12v supply that feeds the G540 thus the super PID, what amperage power supply is needed?

[ger21]

The Super-PID needs a 5V power supply. I get my 5V from a hard drive cable.
And I think you're thinking of CarveOne's. Mine's one the side of the gantry.

[Arbo]

Yeah, I see that on the drawing now. The 12v is what goes into the VFD + on the G540, and comes out the VFD output to control router speed.

Guess I need to figure out how to wire up one of the extra PC supplies I have sitting around so I can hook that up somewhere to provide the 12v and 5v.

[Arbo]

Pulled the cap off the PC 890 to see how it might need to be modified.

The parts breakdown shows the whole top electronic board as 'speed control' , and I see no real triac, unless you consider the adjustment knob one. Is it possible to merely bypass the whole 'speed control' unit as a solution? It looks pretty simple to do.

Of note as well is it will be possible to mount the sensor inside the housing, you can see a 'magnetic disk' on top of the shaft. It doesn't look like it uses sensors, so not sure why it is there... But I could put the paint there and set up the normal sensor right next to it.

(trying to attach pictures, but cnczone is being it's normal slow self)

[thoug]

A couple questions. thoug's schematic looks good, but I don't use a smooth stepper (nor do I know what they are), so I'm guess i'd just bypass that part?

Arbo - Yes, you can just ignore the smoothstepper. The only reason I show it is because I use one of it's inputs to bring the TACH signal back into Mach3. Using the TACH signal is completely optional.

The next question that I would expect someone to ask is: Why not use the G540 inputs for the TACH signal? In my case I already have them all used for home/limit switches. The G540 inputs are designed to have switches connected to tie them to ground or let them float. I'm not sure about connecting a 5V logic signal direct to them, as I don't know what level they are pulled up to. That would be a good question to ask Mariss in the Gecko Drives forum.

Forgot to ask, for a 12v supply that feeds the G540 thus the super PID, what amperage power supply is needed?

The amperage is very low, certainly measured in milliamps, so pretty much any 12V supply will work. Based on what Reddish has posted on using 5V for the G540 VFD, it looks like there's a good chance you can use the same +5V supply for the Super-PID as well as the G540 VFD.

Todd

[Arbo]

Thanks for the info Todd. I looked in Mach3's pin settings and couldn't find where you could set a 'TACH' input.

I have been going through the thread looking for info on the super-PID in terms of the info you have in your drawing... like what is the 'RUN' pin, and what is required there?

I drew up the following based on your drawing vs what I have... but still missing the 'RUN' stuff... I already have a 48v relay that turns the router on and off, but I don't know if that is the same thing input on the sPID 'RUN' does.

Oh, here's the pictures of the router opened up...

[RomanLini]

Maspeir- Good point about the opto vs hall sensors. In the original design we went for the solution that was both safest and easiest to install. As we didn't know how keen people would be to modify their routers, the opto system allows an easy install where you basically just have to put a spot of white paint on your router collet or shaft and point the opto sensor at it. It's also safer with no metal magnets to be thrown off at high RPM!

Hall sensors are more resistant to dirt, but to mount them safely you need to use a solid unbroken ring of plastic with the tiny magnet embedded inside. I made some examples in post #799. Eventually we may offer some hall sensors and magnet rings for the most popular routers, at least the routers that have enough room on the shaft to fit the ring.

The opto sensor is a good working solution, and the SuperPID has a "View spindle" bargraph that lets you see the signal from the opto sensor whenever the router is stopped so you can see the sensor is working properly. The opto sensor won't generally be affected by larger particles, but it will need an occasional clean via a puff of compressed air or a touch with a fine paintbrush, depending where the sensor is mounted and how much fine dust builds up there. This is normal maintenance anyway, you should not let weeks of fine dust build up in your collet or cap area of your router as it damages the bearings and brushes.

Lancut- Your understanding of how the Mach3 speed control works is correct. Mach3 sends a PWM signal which is just filtered to make a voltage between 0v and 5v. That voltage tells the SuperPID what speed you want, and the SuperPID is the closed loop system that then keeps the router running at the proper speed.

Mach3 is basically just doing the same job that the speed knob did; it tells the SuperPID how fast to run.

Reddish- That you very much for taking the time to test the VFD output of the G540. The linearity is very nice, and it looks within about 1% of the exact speed, possibly bettwe once calibrated in Mach3. To me that looks perfectly usable for direct control with the G540 VFD running from the same 5v supply as the SuperPID, and connecting it to the pot "PO" terminal through a 22k resistor.

That is excellent news, thanks!

Thoug- Correct about still using a 22k resistor between the G540 VFD out and the SuperPID "PO" input. As you said it provides additional smoothing and noise rejection, all good things.

Gmfoster- That's another good description of what happens with the Mach3 controlling SuperPID speed. As for "It is unlikely the things will work perfectly and the speed set will be exactly" it should actually be pretty good. The Super-PID uses a math system that generates the speed very accurately (to a number of decimal places), and based on Reddish's chart the output from Mach3->G540 looks very linear. Once Mach3 is calibrated I would expect speed control to be better than 1% which is perfect enough for a cutting tool.

Arbo- As ger21 said the SuperPID needs a +5v *regulated* supply. It needs about 150mA for the SuperPID and you should probably allow 100mA for a small fan. The G540 VFD power will be only a few milliamps. So the total should be well under 300mA or 1/3 of an amp.

Thoug- According to Mariss the G540 inputs are pulled up to 12v with a 8mA pullup resistor. So the SuperPID "TACH" output is not directly compatible with those inputs.

[RomanLini]

Arbo- About your router, is that the PC890 that you mentioned before? Can you please confirm the model number etc (whatever is written on its tag) as that may be of help to people that have the same router in the future. Thanks!

It' hard to tell exactly where the TRIAC device is on your PCB, but I believe it is on the far right in the second photo, just above the centre. It does look like there are only 3 wires going to the PCB, which is the same as many other routers in the thread.

Also, it looks fairly clear that the red and yellow wires are the 2 wires that carry the motor current. If you look at the PCB between where the red and yellow wires connect (very close to the red wire) you should be able to see the black 3-pin TRIAC device.

I think your options are to bypass the TRIAC device by joining its 3 legs with solder, or what might be a better option would be to remove the speed control PCB altogether and just join the 2 motor power wires (RED->YELLOW) and disconnect the black wire from everything.

There are a couple of people in the thread who have done similar mods on other routers where they have removed the speed control module that had 3 wires.

If you did remove the speed control it would be easy to put some white paint on that small black rotor ring, and point the opto sensor at that.

[adam_m]

Maspeir- Good point about the opto vs hall sensors. In the original design we went for the solution that was both safest and easiest to install. As we didn't know how keen people would be to modify their routers, the opto system allows an easy install where you basically just have to put a spot of white paint on your router collet or shaft and point the opto sensor at it. It's also safer with no metal magnets to be thrown off at high RPM!

Hall sensors are more resistant to dirt, but to mount them safely you need to use a solid unbroken ring of plastic with the tiny magnet embedded inside. I made some examples in post #799. Eventually we may offer some hall sensors and magnet rings for the most popular routers, at least the routers that have enough room on the shaft to fit the ring.

The opto sensor is a good working solution, and the SuperPID has a "View spindle" bargraph that lets you see the signal from the opto sensor whenever the router is stopped so you can see the sensor is working properly. The opto sensor won't generally be affected by larger particles, but it will need an occasional clean via a puff of compressed air or a touch with a fine paintbrush, depending where the sensor is mounted and how much fine dust builds up there. This is normal maintenance anyway, you should not let weeks of fine dust build up in your collet or cap area of your router as it damages the bearings and brushes.

Lancut- Your understanding of how the Mach3 speed control works is correct. Mach3 sends a PWM signal which is just filtered to make a voltage between 0v and 5v. That voltage tells the SuperPID what speed you want, and the SuperPID is the closed loop system that then keeps the router running at the proper speed.

Mach3 is basically just doing the same job that the speed knob did; it tells the SuperPID how fast to run.

Reddish- That you very much for taking the time to test the VFD output of the G540. The linearity is very nice, and it looks within about 1% of the exact speed, possibly bettwe once calibrated in Mach3. To me that looks perfectly usable for direct control with the G540 VFD running from the same 5v supply as the SuperPID, and connecting it to the pot "PO" terminal through a 22k resistor.

That is excellent news, thanks!

Thoug- Correct about still using a 22k resistor between the G540 VFD out and the SuperPID "PO" input. As you said it provides additional smoothing and noise rejection, all good things.

Gmfoster- That's another good description of what happens with the Mach3 controlling SuperPID speed. As for "It is unlikely the things will work perfectly and the speed set will be exactly" it should actually be pretty good. The Super-PID uses a math system that generates the speed very accurately (to a number of decimal places), and based on Reddish's chart the output from Mach3->G540 looks very linear. Once Mach3 is calibrated I would expect speed control to be better than 1% which is perfect enough for a cutting tool.

Arbo- As ger21 said the SuperPID needs a +5v *regulated* supply. It needs about 150mA for the SuperPID and you should probably allow 100mA for a small fan. The G540 VFD power will be only a few milliamps. So the total should be well under 300mA or 1/3 of an amp.

Thoug- According to Mariss the G540 inputs are pulled up to 12v with a 8mA pullup resistor. So the SuperPID "TACH" output is not directly compatible with those inputs.

Roman,

Will you be assembling some type of installation web page that will contain all of this useful information for those of us that are electronically challenged, especially with regard to hook up and wiring?

I've seen the request to book mark pages in this thread but that still doesn't ventrally locate the useful information form the comments and suggestions.

How should one wire up a v1.5 with a G540, etc.?

Thanks.

Adam,

[Arbo]

Arbo- About your router, is that the PC890 that you mentioned before?

Yes, the overall router is a PC890. The 'motor' is a PC8902.

I was looking at it and figured connecting the red and yellow would simply bypass the speed control. I'll look again for the triac , but may just connect those wires. The speed control itself sits so that it would provide a nice mounting spot for the opto sensor. So I will probably do that.

Oh, and can you explain to me what that 'run' connection in the PID is for? Or what is needed there? Is that related to starting up the router, or just the PID itself? Thanks.

[thoug]

Thanks for the info Todd. I looked in Mach3's pin settings and couldn't find where you could set a 'TACH' input.

I have been going through the thread looking for info on the super-PID in terms of the info you have in your drawing... like what is the 'RUN' pin, and what is required there?

I drew up the following based on your drawing vs what I have... but still missing the 'RUN' stuff... I already have a 48v relay that turns the router on and off, but I don't know if that is the same thing input on the sPID 'RUN' does.

Arbo - In Mach3 the spindle speed input is called "Index". You'll need to configure the Index input to the input port that the TACH signal is connected to.

Your wiring diagram looks good, you just need to change the relay wiring to match my schematics. The RUN input is what turns the router on. Wire it to the relay with the resistor per my schematics. My schematics don't show the AC hook up to the Super-PID, I'll see if I can add that when I have time. The AC mains input disconnects from you relay and connects to the Super-PID, your router also connects direct to the Super-PID.

Todd

[Arbo]

Your wiring diagram looks good, you just need to change the relay wiring to match my schematics. The RUN input is what turns the router on. Wire it to the relay with the resistor per my schematics. My schematics don't show the AC hook up to the Super-PID, I'll see if I can add that when I have time. The AC mains input disconnects from you relay and connects to the Super-PID, your router also connects direct to the Super-PID.

Ok, so the sPID has it's own AC controlling relay that is controlled by the 'run' signal. Got it. Makes sense. Thanks.

[RomanLini]

...
Will you be assembling some type of installation web page that will contain all of this useful information for those of us that are electronically challenged, especially with regard to hook up and wiring?
...

Thanks Adam, that's an interesting suggestion! The main instruction PDF of the SuperPID already has the basic installation and wiring instructions but they are nowhere near as comprehensive as the information contained in this thread.

The diagrams I have recently made (and put in this thread) to answer specific quesions will soon be compiled into the SuperPID instruction PDF but I have been waiting for things to "stabilise" with everybody's installations and the wonderful feedback people have all provided so far, so that it is one big job updating the instructions over the holidays rather than to constantly release little revisions of the instructions every week.

It looks like we are getting pretty close to the point now where most of the details have been nutted out (thanks people!) and I can do a comprehensive index of this thread and at the same time compile a lot of info to be added to the instructions. Again, thanks for the suggestion of an installation web page or thread, but I think that will be best served via a single and complete instruction PDF that people can download and print diagrams etc.

Thank you too everyone who has provided input, especially the things that take a lot of work like photos graphs, schematics etc!

This is a good time for anyone to make suggestions for things they would like to see in the instructions, that would have made their installation easier or explained things better... I already wanted to add a "Quick start guide" as a big one page diagram showing the SuperPID, RPM sensor and router and explaining what it does.