[MBG]

Can it be done? In this time and day can you run a machine shop just with manual machines? lathe and mill.. maybe a grinder if needed.

[MBG]

and I doubt i have the skills of "tool maker" just regular machine skills

[ViperTX]

Kinda depends on what type of work you'll have....well...I guess the manual machines pretty much dictate the type of work you'll have...hopefully they have DRO's.

[lerman]

Kinda depends on what type of work you'll have....well...I guess the manual machines pretty much dictate the type of work you'll have...hopefully they have DRO's.

Hopefully they are electrically powered.

Ken

[ViperTX]

Ken...*chuckle*....they could have treddles.....

[Mcgyver]

that's funny, you read about the old timers with treadle metal lathes - i don't how the managed to walk, one leg must have been the size of a steer's!

[DieGuy]

Me loves flat belts and the water wheels.

Sure a manual machine shop is a possiblity, you have to remember that 30 years ago we were making tools and dies with no NC machines, and DROs were a luxury!

[wizard]

Well the first thing I hope you realize is that it takes more than a lathe and a mill to run a full service machine shop! As to your question it certainly could be done, you might not realize huge profits but that is a issue based on local. The question I have is why would you want to limit yourself in such a manner?

While a lathe might not require automation I can't see a good reason to avoid it on a mill at all. CNC and milling where made for each other. Not that a lathe couldn't use CNC control but a mill that can go both ways is very versatile. Going both ways is a key consideration in my estimation and can be done well on a knee type mill.

Another thing to consider is that without CNC you have to invest in alot of hardware to supplement the milll.

I geuss I just don't understand why the limitation. I'm not even sure it is practical to start a business today without at least some CNC capacity. This of course depends on the work you want to pursue, just realize that others will be pursuing that work also.

Dave

Can it be done? In this time and day can you run a machine shop just with manual machines? lathe and mill.. maybe a grinder if needed.

[MBG]

Well the first thing I hope you realize is that it takes more than a lathe and a mill to run a full service machine shop! As to your question it certainly could be done, you might not realize huge profits but that is a issue based on local. The question I have is why would you want to limit yourself in such a manner?

While a lathe might not require automation I can't see a good reason to avoid it on a mill at all. CNC and milling where made for each other. Not that a lathe couldn't use CNC control but a mill that can go both ways is very versatile. Going both ways is a key consideration in my estimation and can be done well on a knee type mill.

Another thing to consider is that without CNC you have to invest in alot of hardware to supplement the milll.

I geuss I just don't understand why the limitation. I'm not even sure it is practical to start a business today without at least some CNC capacity. This of course depends on the work you want to pursue, just realize that others will be pursuing that work also.

Dave

lack of money right now for cnc

[DLMACHINE]

If lack of money is your primary driving force then take a good look around.
Right now the used equipment market is flooded and there are awesome deals to be had. In the 5 auctions I have attended in the last 2 months the manual equipment brought a higher price than the CNC equipment did.
Manual equipment is sought after by hobbiests and this drives the price up simply because they can pay more. A company has to justify the return on the investment, which is tough to do on a manual machine.Look at machines between 1980 and 1990 for great prices.They are old enough that major manufacturers won't touch them unless they are specialized.Most job shops will skip them as well due to the slow speeds,limited controllers and lack of tool changers for most.For your application you can sacrifice machine time for initial start up savings.
Avoid brokers at all costs to save money.

I started my shop with 1 manual lathe and now have 3 manual lathes,2 cnc mills and a swiss type cnc lathe.I started it part time and now work in my shop full time.It can be done.

[miljnor]

I agree with DL It can be done, but, don't quite your day job! This is my suggestion to every startup out there. It will be alot of hours and hopefully your single because it may get you divorced

I started with a CNC lathe and a Manual mill, kinda backwards to most people, but it worked for me. I was only able to survive without the cnc mill for about 6 months. When you go for the financing you have to make the big money to stay alive. So CNC it was!

I would definitely go the garage route with the DIY style CNC if I had to do it over. Without the payments of shop rent and Machine payment you tend to make sooooooo much more money (usually sucked up by tooling cost ) but you can also take a break if things aren't going well (this is why you keep the day job!).

You can quit the day job and get a shop when you have wrangled so much work you can't keep up with it. but until then its the garage!

Another big recomendation is to make your own product because in the end a job shop is a glorified employee thats easy to fire!

[MBG]

I agree with DL It can be done, but, don't quite your day job! This is my suggestion to every startup out there. It will be alot of hours and hopefully your single because it may get you divorced

I started with a CNC lathe and a Manual mill, kinda backwards to most people, but it worked for me. I was only able to survive without the cnc mill for about 6 months. When you go for the financing you have to make the big money to stay alive. So CNC it was!

I would definitely go the garage route with the DIY style CNC if I had to do it over. Without the payments of shop rent and Machine payment you tend to make sooooooo much more money (usually sucked up by tooling cost ) but you can also take a break if things aren't going well (this is why you keep the day job!).

You can quit the day job and get a shop when you have wrangled so much work you can't keep up with it. but until then its the garage!

Another big recomendation is to make your own product because in the end a job shop is a glorified employee thats easy to fire!

true I would like to make my own product. That would be ideal.

[MBG]

I dont mind working part time either. I am still working my way through college. I just would like to start a part time machining business.

[ViperTX]

Well keying off of DLMACHINE's observation of what is occuring at auctions..."manual machines selling for a premium over CNC" because of us.....leads me to recommend that if you can undertake a CNC retrofit of a CNC machine...that may be the way to go.

[wizard]

I agree with DL It can be done, but, don't quite your day job!

Wise advice!

However on the other hand if things take off don't forget the importance of that college education.

Another big recomendation is to make your own product because in the end a job shop is a glorified employee thats easy to fire!

This is a good idea but don't underestimate the marketing costs. Also for a straight job shop with just a mill and a lathe, I'd have to wonder what you could produce that would be competitive.

miljnor and DL... both have hit things on the head. It may be far easier to get into some basic CNC hardware due to current market conditions. As long as you have a manual capacity in some form it is the way to go. As to lathe or mill as the first CNC device well that sort of depends on what you expect to do. I know of one guy that ran a bunch of lathes in his basment making very small parts for years. It is a matter of the type of work you intend to pursue, when I here job shop though I think CNC mill.

Thanks
Dave

[wizard]

The idea of working your way though college with your own business is not unheard of. It won't be easy either. Many business will have trouble dealing with part time business but there won't be enough of these to matter to much.

You might find that there will be potential business available to you simply because you are working your way through college.

Frankly the best reason to go the CNC route is that the machine itself can work for you while you are studying. Or more likely sleeping.

One word of caution though with respect to used CNC equipment. If you are not inclined to make repairs or upgrades your self you may need to rethink used CNC. The bargains are there because no body wants the headaches that go with fixing old hardware. A person with the right aptitiude might not have much of an issue with this though.

dave

I dont mind working part time either. I am still working my way through college. I just would like to start a part time machining business.

[MBG]

I think I am going to go the cnc mill route with a manual lathe.

I am checking out haas cnc toolroom mill.

[Geof]

I think I am going to go the cnc mill route with a manual lathe.

I am checking out haas cnc toolroom mill.

Good choice; manual lathe and CNC mill but I suggest at least the MiniMill not the toolroom mill. Except for the one advantage of longer table travel the TM has, in my view, only disadvantages compared to the MM: The spindle speed is lower, the feeds and rapids are much slower, the Tool Changer is not included and the machine is open so you cannot work with flood coolant which is essential for maximum productivity on aluminum. In terms of potential earning capacity I think the MM is a better buy. An even better buy, although it is quite a bit more money, is a Super Mini Mill with the extended Z clearance and fourth axis so you can expand to a rotary table in the future. On this SMM you can mount the Haas HRT 210 and still maintain full X travel on the table and you have almost the same Z clearance above the centerline of the rotary table as a regular MM has above the machine table.

[MBG]

Good choice; manual lathe and CNC mill but I suggest at least the MiniMill not the toolroom mill. Except for the one advantage of longer table travel the TM has, in my view, only disadvantages compared to the MM: The spindle speed is lower, the feeds and rapids are much slower, the Tool Changer is not included and the machine is open so you cannot work with flood coolant which is essential for maximum productivity on aluminum. In terms of potential earning capacity I think the MM is a better buy. An even better buy, although it is quite a bit more money, is a Super Mini Mill with the extended Z clearance and fourth axis so you can expand to a rotary table in the future. On this SMM you can mount the Haas HRT 210 and still maintain full X travel on the table and you have almost the same Z clearance above the centerline of the rotary table as a regular MM has above the machine table.

wow no coolant screw that.. damn 40k for the super mini mill. I am better off getting the vf1 damn. What about used machines where could I pick them up? I like HAAS.

[Geof]

Going for the Super Mini Mill has advantages over the VF1 that could apply in your planning. The machine weighs in at about 4500 to 5000 lbs with the extra Z clearance compared with 8000lb for the VF1 and it occupies less space. The SMM does not need to be accurately levelled because it is a small machine and sits on a rigid steel fabrication that is also the coolant tank. If you are setting up a small shop and may be in the position of sharing space or get into some place with limited access to save money the SMM is much easier to move. Also it comes with a 10000 rpm spindle and 1200 ipm rapids compared with 7500 and 750 on the VF1 (unless it has been upgraded).