[Doubleoh9]

This isn't really a warranty issue anymore. Tormach clearly sent a machine that hasn't worked right from the start. Sounds like a lemon. This is sad. I have a Series 1 at home and a Series 2 at work. Tormach clearly makes changes to the xml files from Series to Series. My Series 1 had Step pulses at 5us and Dir Pulses at 0. The Series 2 has both set at 8us. If everyone is in agreement that this is Tormach version Mach related, why not download the latest version of non-Tormach Mach and try it out. Not rocket science to transfer the License file, bmps, and XML to that folder and adjust away. Or, download EMC2 as it is now approved by Tormach and try it out.

[mactec54]

VaderSpade
The program is loaded into Mach no matter where it starts out, and it is run from Mach and NOT the drive.


When you load the program from Drive or USB, it is in the computers Ram, if you don't have enough Ram for large programs, it will go back to get the rest of the program as it needs it untill it is completed, Thats why you need lots of Ram when you have large programs, so the complete program is loaded

I know what I would of done to get going as someone else has said before, get another computer put Mach on it plug it into your Tormach set up the XML file & run your machine

[VaderSpade]

I have been running for three days without an incident. I have been running with the tool path display turned off even for simple programs, and thought that may have solved my problems.

It was not to be I just had a big thump and a Z plunge with the tool path display turned off.

Tormach said I could send the mill back so their engineers could have a look at it, but they would not say who would pay for what or what I would do for a mill in the meantime.
I have had real damages to parts and tooling, it would be easy for Tormach to hide any real cause to protect themselves, if I sent it back.

They also hinted that it’s a problem try and get help from anyone but them. (That would be you guys).

I would include more details such as a quote from them, but they threatened to sue me if I did.

So much for telling the truth and free speech.

Tormach has pretty much told me to get a lawyer. I have access to a couple.

If you have a problem think twice about posting it here!

[pete from TN]

Well so much for the stellar service from Tormach..... I would imagine that if I were tormach and saw all this problematic troubleshooting on one machine happening on their own forum I would do whatever I could to make it right if for nothing else than to ensure the name of the company stays clean. Threatening lawsuits and advising you to lawyer up is not gonna be something folks will forget easily. Altho to be fair this is your word against theirs. I cannot imagine them NOT wanting to help you in light of the problems you have been experiencing. It also seems that you have tried to follow their advice in troubleshooting the machine. I do not envy you at all..... good luck with it. Peace

Pete

[300sniper]

I have been running for three days without an incident. I have been running with the tool path display turned off even for simple programs, and thought that may have solved my problems.

It was not to be I just had a big thump and a Z plunge with the tool path display turned off.

Tormach said I could send the mill back so their engineers could have a look at it, but they would not say who would pay for what or what I would do for a mill in the meantime.
I have had real damages to parts and tooling, it would be easy for Tormach to hide any real cause to protect themselves, if I sent it back.

They also hinted that it’s a problem try and get help from anyone but them. (That would be you guys).

I would include more details such as a quote from them, but they threatened to sue me if I did.

So much for telling the truth and free speech.

Tormach has pretty much told me to get a lawyer. I have access to a couple.

If you have a problem think twice about posting it here!

i seem to remember you talking about lawyers back in the beginning of january. my guess is once you start threatening that, people get a bit uptight and tell you to go for it. i know there has to be two sides to this story here but i have a hunch that if they told you to get a lawyer, it's because you threatened to.

[VaderSpade]

i seem to remember you talking about lawyers back in the beginning of january. my guess is once you start threatening that, people get a bit uptight and tell you to go for it. i know there has to be two sides to this story here but i have a hunch that if they told you to get a lawyer, it's because you threatened to.

After they said send it back so they could have a look at it I ask who was going to pay for that and what about my damages. I got no clear answer so I did say I would need to run the idea past a lawyer before sending a $20,000.00 investment back with NO clear promises or answers.
They said they thought I should talk to a lawyer. What would you do?

After months of frustration, broken tools and ruined parts what would you do?

[sharpshooter90]

After they said send it back so they could have a look at it I ask who was going to pay for that and what about my damages. I got no clear answer so I did say I would need to run the idea past a lawyer before sending a $20,000.00 investment back with NO clear promises or answers.
They said they thought I should talk to a lawyer. What would you do?

After months of frustration, broken tools and ruined parts what would you do?

Getting lawyers involved will just cost you more money and time and will not enhance your best outcome, which will be a refund of your money. No lawyer will be able to get you damages for lost time or jobs-
I would ask Tormach to send one of their people to your location to try and find the problem with the stipulation that if he cannot find or solve it, they will refund your money and pay to ship it back. If he finds the problem and corrects it, and it is a Tormach issue, then they can pay all their own costs. If its a Mach or operator error, then you pay his costs. Both of you are dealing with a 20,000 product, so spending a few hundred in travel is a good investment on either side.

[VaderSpade]

I would love to hire a neutral guy with the understanding whoever is at fault pays. I'm not sure I could trust “their guy” to be straight up as to the fault when money is on the line.
Beside bad power I can’t see how it could be my fault. Even bad power is not my fault but I guess it’s not theirs either. I have tried different power sources, but all comes from PG&E.

As far as Mach goes I think this may well be a Mach problem, but it's Tormach's version of Mach and they installed it. It should run on their machine.

Time and lost jobs may be hard to recover (by no means impossible) parts and tooling are not so hard. The hard part is proving the machine is at fault (hard to do when you can’t figure what’s wrong) and documenting loss.

I went through something like this with Chrysler years ago. They couldn’t find and fix a problem under warrantee, and then dumped me when the warrantee expired. I had my van fixed elsewhere and sued Chrysler. They sent two lawyers from Detroit to argue the warrantee had expired, and was further voided because I had the work done elsewhere. I won the full amount I was seeking plus attorney fees.

Really in the end I just want the mill to work reliably. I love CNC milling and this mill when it works.

You only need to look on other forums that I post on to see what a great salesman of products I love I can be.

BUT I call them as I see them!

[dbrija]

In my "Series 3 Upgrade, mixed so far" thread, when the Z axis plunge issue (power down sequence issue) was brought to light, Tormach posted a response with cause, and a plan for how to address it.

In this case, I would have expected a similar response. Its a bad situation for both sides at this point. A very frustrated 1100 owner, and what I would consider a damaged support reputation developing on the other.

I totally agree with whomever posted that spending a few hundred dollars in travel costs to resolve this would go a long way in repairing both situations. Find the issue and get the machine working 100%, and then go about the business of who pays what.

[Bob La Londe]

Like I said before. The PCNC 770 "was" on my for consideration list when I get enough work going to afford new machines. I've been following this thread for a while, and nobody mentioned getting the lawyers involved until many months had past without resolving the problem. I'ld say give him his money back and pick up the machine at this point if he would take that as a final resolution. Then Tormach can test the machine and the code to their hearts content to make sure it never happens to a future customer.

(Except for being a stepper machine the PCNC 770 is about the best match for what I like to do in an affordable machine).

As to Tormach suing him... anybody can sue anybody for anything in this country, but they better be darn sure they can win if they do, because judges look pretty dimly on intimidation lawsuits when the plaintiff is telling the truth.

And yes... I post under my real name.

[zephyr9900]

As far as Mach goes I think this may well be a Mach problem, but it's Tormach's version of Mach and they installed it. It should run on their machine.

More accurately it is a stock version of Mach set up with with Tormach's chosen machine and motion parameters.

Really in the end I just want the mill to work reliably. I love CNC milling and this mill when it works.

If that's all you want, Randy, shoot me a PM with your email. If you accept that Tormach can't or won't help in your case, and has encouraged you to seek help elsewhere, I'll send you an XML to test like I said earlier in the thread. It will have a little lower acceleration, but if my "remote viewing" evaluation of the problem is correct it should make your machine rock solid. I have not seen anything that points to your problem being anything more than a little too optimistic setting of motion parameters.

Randy

[zephyr9900]

(Except for being a stepper machine the PCNC 770 is about the best match for what I like to do in an affordable machine).

I can't afford a new machine from scratch, but if I could get a reasonable tradein value for my 1100 I'd buy a new 770 without hesitaiton. And disregard the warranty. I'd be happy to sign a waiver... I'm jonesing for a 770 spindle on my 1100 as it is--for small work even the 770 is spindle-speed-limited but it's twice better than the 1100...

Randy

[philbur]

Having heard only one side of the story I think it is unwise to make any kind of judgment. 100+ customers rave about Tormach support, one customer claims it stinks. On several occasions I myself have received support way beyond what any reasonable person would have the right to expect.

Something isn't adding up here.

Phil

[300sniper]

Having heard only one side of the story I think it is unwise to make any kind of judgment. 100+ customers rave about Tormach support, one customer claims it stinks. On several occasions I myself have received support way beyond what any reasonable person would have the right to expect.

Something isn't adding up here.

Phil

i have to agree.

[VaderSpade]

What's not adding up is that they cannot find the problem. I didn't say they didn't try but after a while an e-mail every few days just doesn't help.

Most problems are easy to fix, where the rubber hits the road on customer support is the tough problems.
Easy problems take little time and bring rave reviews. Tough problems take lots of time and cost money.

The real question is are they willing to take a little bad press rather than stand behind their product?????? No doubt they would like the problem to go away but what are they willing to put into the problem??

On my end I I’m willing to buy an electricity conditioner, what other possibilities could there be on MY end??? I have tried everything Tormach has asked me to do.
Tormach knows it has Mach problems, they have posted about them, and they have changed the screen sets. Others are reporting Mach problems and are told to turn off the tool path display while they work on the problem “THE PROBLEM”. That’s a workaround NOT a fix.

[Bob La Londe]

There is a truism in business. For every customer who speaks up and voices a complaint there are a 100 who just went somewhere else.

TORMACH. I CHALLENGE YOU TO COME ON THIS THREAD AND FIX THIS PROBLEM.

I have been in business literally my whole life. When I was a little kid I didn't blow my birthday money and Christmas money on junk. I bought merchandise and put it on the shelves in my parents grocery store to make more money. So don't give me fanboy rhetoric or something doesn't add up garbage. They have had plenty of time to fix the problem or deny the problem.

As far as I am concerned the only reason they haven't spoken up is they can't fix the problem and they don't know what it is. Same reason they might choose to try and intimidate with a lawsuit.

If they are so broke they can't buy back one lousy machine then I'm not sure I would want to buy one from them anyway.

AND TO THE OP. They might try to deny the warranty if you run things your own way, but legally they would be on the hook big time unless they can prove you caused a problem with the way you did things or the parts you used. Like we said before if they could really get away with that don't you think Ford would insist you can only put Ford brand oil and Ford brand batteries in their cars. Its been through the courts and a blanket denial of all warranty for fixing the machine or for using some other part is bull****. The courts know it. The lawyers know it, and I bet even Tormach knows it.

[300sniper]

There is a truism in business. For every customer who speaks up and voices a complaint there are a 100 who just went somewhere else.

TORMACH. I CHALLENGE YOU TO COME ON THIS THREAD AND FIX THIS PROBLEM.

I have been in business literally my whole life. When I was a little kid I didn't blow my birthday money and Christmas money on junk. I bought merchandise and put it on the shelves in my parents grocery store to make more money. So don't give me fanboy rhetoric or something doesn't add up garbage. They have had plenty of time to fix the problem or deny the problem.

As far as I am concerned the only reason they haven't spoken up is they can't fix the problem and they don't know what it is. Same reason they might choose to try and intimidate with a lawsuit.

If they are so broke they can't buy back one lousy machine then I'm not sure I would want to buy one from them anyway.

AND TO THE OP. They might try to deny the warranty if you run things your own way, but legally they would be on the hook big time unless they can prove you caused a problem with the way you did things or the parts you used. Like we said before if they could really get away with that don't you think Ford would insist you can only put Ford brand oil and Ford brand batteries in their cars. Its been through the courts and a blanket denial of all warranty for fixing the machine or for using some other part is bull****. The courts know it. The lawyers know it, and I bet even Tormach knows it.

with only hearing one side of the story, i have a feeling that tormach wasn't the one to attempt to intimate with a lawsuit. the op mentioned lawyering up in the beginning of january. personally, if i were the manufacture, i'd stay away from these types of threads in this situation. it always turns to drama. i've watched it happen with other industries and other manufactures.

[Bob La Londe]

The OP was fighting this problem long before that. On 12/12/11 he started this thread and indicated he had been fighting the machine for a couple months already.

I would add though, that running Mach with the toolpath screen on is a documented problem in MACH (not Tormach) with larger files, and even certain smaller files.

I was just looking at the PCNC 770 spec page earlier today, and it says it will run under Ubuntu Linux (I am assuming EMC 2 / LinuxCNC). Ubuntu Linuxe/LinuxCNC is free. Why not try it. You will need to use a different post processor to generate your G-code, but its worth a shot. I just checked. The PCNC 1100 also says that:

PC – MachOS (recommended) or Ubuntu Linux; Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7 (compatible)

See if its true, and get the setup information for it.

[300sniper]

The OP was fighting this problem long before that. On 12/12/11 he started this thread and indicated he had been fighting the machine for a couple months already.

i got the impression that he had the machine for a couple months but hadn't had much time to mess with it. on december 12th, he had the new problem that is being discussed here.

[philbur]

Do you really consider this as an appropriate qualification for lecturing to others. You're joking, right?

In what way do the statements contained in the first two sentences qualify you to make the statement in the last sentence?

Phil

When I was a little kid I didn't blow my birthday money and Christmas money on junk. I bought merchandise and put it on the shelves in my parents grocery store to make more money. So don't give me fanboy rhetoric or something doesn't add up garbage.