[lcvette]

Do you have a cost estimate for the machine frame? Looks like its going to get expensive pretty quick with all that steel. At some point you gotta ask yourself when buying a machine would be cheaper and a whole lot easier...

For example, the following machine can be purchased for around $1900 shipped from china.. With upgraded 48" table which gives it travels of X-28" Y-13" Z-18" and that is normal travels no over extending has cast iron base, nice Y ways closed column and heavy Precision ground ways and dovetails.. And the manufacturer is willing to modify as needed to make cnc ready with ballscrews a variety of spindle options up to 8k rpm. They also sell a complete cnc version shown below for $9200...










Attachment 303098







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[ozgur640]

Do you have a cost estimate for the machine frame? Looks like its going to get expensive pretty quick with all that steel. At some point you gotta ask yourself when buying a machine would be cheaper and a whole lot easier...

For example, the following machine can be purchased for around $1900 shipped from china.. With upgraded 48" table which gives it travels of X-28" Y-13" Z-18" and that is normal travels no over extending has cast iron base, nice Y ways closed column and heavy Precision ground ways and dovetails.. And the manufacturer is willing to modify as needed to make cnc ready with ballscrews a variety of spindle options up to 8k rpm. They also sell a complete cnc version shown below for $9200...










Attachment 303098







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Sure the cost estimate is fairly high as fallows;
500$ step motors controllers
1500$ frame production
400$ Chinese ball screws
600$ Hıwın rails and cars
200$ Small spindle

The main problem that i have is i dont have a suitable workshop for buying machine as you suggested since they weight 100's of kg an are in one piece.
I only have two choises :
1-Buying a optimum bf20l sized machine(125 kg) and convert it at home (without any cnc it's quite difficult) needs screw replacement, end plate replacement table machining, cannot install linear guides and the machine has small travels..
2-build it at home using part weights not exceeding 100kgs, that way I can use linear guides, have more stiff and large machine installed. That's reason for all this machine build. Best regards.
Ozgur

[hanermo]

To lcvette..
1900$ in china..
is 400 € seafreight,
plus 1200 € customs brokerage and VAT, == 4600 €.

My frame costs about the 5000€ in tool steel, approx 2€/kg, 2000 kg.
Add 500 work hours.

But my volumetric size, for this example, is approx 20x larger, for the similar 5000€ landed cost.

For comparison purposes.
Servos, 300€/axis == 900 €.
32/4 ballscrews, 1.4 m long, x 4 = 700€.
Controller (PokeysCNC) 400€ with din rails, bits and pieces (50 connect blocks etc).
PSU 1 kW, 400€.
Pulleys, paint, stuff, 2000€.
Linear rails, about 2000€ for 35 mm hiwin, 10.4 m linear length, 10 blocks
Spindle 1500€ landed
Toolchanger 900 € landed
Servo for spindle, 2-4 kW (tbd), 1500 € landed
Approx 13-15k € for pieces.

Tooling etc. 3000€ (10-15 toolholders, 20 ER collets, facemills, endmills, inserts etc).

My machine is functionally equivalent to a medium/large industrial VMC with 1.6 m bed.
(Work area 1600 x 1200 m 400 mm. Very Large).
1/6 the power, 1/3 the rigidity, 1/3 the mass (2200 kg vs 6000 kg).
Similar (better) resolution, similar repeatability, potentially better accuracy.

Doing the verticals now, one box likely to be done today/tomorrow.
These support the bridge (bridge mill) one at each end.

The single ends are:
250x1300x20 mm, 52 kg each.
Can just lift it onto the drill press, heavy sucker.

Ends, 52 kg, x2 => 104 kg
2 ends/vertical, with 400x1300x10 mm side plates, 40 kg each, x2 => 80 kg.
+ 4 stiffeners, top, bottom, double-shelf in middle, each 250x20x400 mm, 16 kg each, => 64 kg,
+ 6 mount blocks, 50x100x250, 10 kg, => 60 kg
== 308 kg each vertical.

Vertical are separated by 1650 mm, bed width is 1600 mm.
Bridge sideplates are 2300x200x20 mm, with 2.3 m long linear rails on top, 140 kg each, x2 => 280 kg.
Bridge table (old design, welded x-frame) == 180 kg.

[Azalin]

Don't waste you time and money for BF20. Upgrading it to CNC as you know is a challenge and probably you will want to have an ATC spindle in the end. That is another challenge and $$$($).

Don't use steel for the frame. Tubular iron is much cheaper and (imo) has better vibe handling characteristics.

Sanayide 4 veya daha kalın et kalınlığında kare ve dikdörtgen profil bulunabiliyor. Bazı yerlerde makinelerle milimetrik kesim de yapıyorlar. Çok hesaplıya gelir.

[lcvette]

To lcvette..
1900$ in china..
is 400 € seafreight,
plus 1200 € customs brokerage and VAT, == 4600 €.

My frame costs about the 5000€ in tool steel, approx 2€/kg, 2000 kg.
Add 500 work hours.

But my volumetric size, for this example, is approx 20x larger, for the similar 5000€ landed cost.

For comparison purposes.
Servos, 300€/axis == 900 €.
32/4 ballscrews, 1.4 m long, x 4 = 700€.
Controller (PokeysCNC) 400€ with din rails, bits and pieces (50 connect blocks etc).
PSU 1 kW, 400€.
Pulleys, paint, stuff, 2000€.
Linear rails, about 2000€ for 35 mm hiwin, 10.4 m linear length, 10 blocks
Spindle 1500€ landed
Toolchanger 900 € landed
Servo for spindle, 2-4 kW (tbd), 1500 € landed
Approx 13-15k € for pieces.

Tooling etc. 3000€ (10-15 toolholders, 20 ER collets, facemills, endmills, inserts etc).

My machine is functionally equivalent to a medium/large industrial VMC with 1.6 m bed.
(Work area 1600 x 1200 m 400 mm. Very Large).
1/6 the power, 1/3 the rigidity, 1/3 the mass (2200 kg vs 6000 kg).
Similar (better) resolution, similar repeatability, potentially better accuracy.

Doing the verticals now, one box likely to be done today/tomorrow.
These support the bridge (bridge mill) one at each end.

The single ends are:
250x1300x20 mm, 52 kg each.
Can just lift it onto the drill press, heavy sucker.

Ends, 52 kg, x2 => 104 kg
2 ends/vertical, with 400x1300x10 mm side plates, 40 kg each, x2 => 80 kg.
+ 4 stiffeners, top, bottom, double-shelf in middle, each 250x20x400 mm, 16 kg each, => 64 kg,
+ 6 mount blocks, 50x100x250, 10 kg, => 60 kg
== 308 kg each vertical.

Vertical are separated by 1650 mm, bed width is 1600 mm.
Bridge sideplates are 2300x200x20 mm, with 2.3 m long linear rails on top, 140 kg each, x2 => 280 kg.
Bridge table (old design, welded x-frame) == 180 kg.

Not sure why it's so expensive for you there... For me that price included the sea freight to my local port and that is sent CIF (seller is responsible for it all the way to my port destination) not FOB. As far as US customs I already checked and it would be about $65 based on the value and cost of the equipment. Perhaps there is some steep fees where you are? Here its easy to look it up and there is a specific category for machinery equipment and you enter in your information and it tells your expected fees.

So that makes the purchase $1965 for me.. That is cheaper then I can get most machines here in the states.




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[lcvette]

Sure the cost estimate is fairly high as fallows;
500$ step motors controllers
1500$ frame production
400$ Chinese ball screws
600$ Hıwın rails and cars
200$ Small spindle

The main problem that i have is i dont have a suitable workshop for buying machine as you suggested since they weight 100's of kg an are in one piece.
I only have two choises :
1-Buying a optimum bf20l sized machine(125 kg) and convert it at home (without any cnc it's quite difficult) needs screw replacement, end plate replacement table machining, cannot install linear guides and the machine has small travels..
2-build it at home using part weights not exceeding 100kgs, that way I can use linear guides, have more stiff and large machine installed. That's reason for all this machine build. Best regards.
Ozgur

Ozgur,

That machine as I stated can be had with P4 Precision ground ballscrews already installed, cost is $500 additional which includes all the peripherals such as motor mounts, bearing blocks, ballnut mounts and all machining required.. That is the great thing about this mill offered as a servo driven CNC, all the parts and components are already available. Note the servo/ stepper mounts..

And the mill is modular, no different then what you are building. The base, stand, column, head, saddle and table can all be disassembled. The difference is it has already been squared and aligned and will be infinitely easier to realign because of that, any shims will already be in place and can be reused verse having to do it yourself. The project you are taking on I think K has many expenses you are not seeing and your estimate is likely very very low unless you have access to some crazy cheap machining, heat treating and grinding.. Around here even a dovetail grind will run you 30-40% of your frame budget..

Just putting additional options out there.

I would suggest you talk to this project owner to get a more accurate estimate of the costs involved with a welded frame mill build.. He even bought a big manual mill to do the machining ops because in the long run it was cheaper to do so then have the machine work done.


https://youtu.be/Jwoe8blk7pg


Custom onsie twosie machine work generally is quite expensive due to setup and fixturing, much more cost effective to do large runs of something.

Depending on your machine requirements, it would still be far cheaper to start with a cast iron mill frame and have it modified. Maybe try speaking to a Chinese manufacturer and ask for what you want. For example, there is a manufacturer that mkes the MD001 mills in China I was quoted $1100 for the mill, $200 for the stand.. I bet they could machine everything to you plans for linear rails and ballscrews before they shipped it and possibly if your drawings are specific enough could do the assembly for you and alignment. They have all the tools and equipment to do so. Look at the costs of granite angle plates and Precision measuring tools.. Another high dollar expense likely not included in your estimate. I don't want to rain on your parade, I just did all this already in the past and my estimates after really itemizing everything was too much for the resulting machine.

Now with that said, if it's the project that you want that is a different story and I can understand that completely and will follow along with great support and enthusiasm for such a fun build. But you should ask yourself if you want the project or if you are doing it because you think it will get you a machine cheaper than what you think you can buy one for.

I agree that of you are starting from scratch to steer clear of the G0704/BF20 frame size, its great for tinkering but you would be much better served with a MD001 base machine, considerably more rigid and still relatively small footprint with better travels.

I'm just offering options perhaps not considered.. For a mill manufacturer in China there isn't much difference between cutting and grinding a dovetail and grinding drilling and tapping a mounting pad for linear rails. And most I've spoken with are completely open to the idea of customizing especially if you offer the completed plans.

Chris



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[ianagos]

If I may ask where would I be able to purchase those machines? I've been looking to build a machine but they seem to have some pretty stout frames

[hanermo]

Typical customs brokerage (obligatory) are likely to be about 600$ in the US (for a 1000 kg / 1900$ pallet).
There are all sorts of declarations, some of which you cannot do, and need a professional/bonded agent.
Origin of goods/new goods/is the wood pallet fumigated & inspected, etc etc etc

We also have some fees (1-2%) + VAT (22% in Spain, typical), in all OECD countries.
The US is the only developed country in thw world without vat, btw.

I have about 25 years importing stuff into 4 countries...
(Finland, Uk, Spain, Tunisia) and from about 20 countries ...

There are many examples of people buying stuff into the us and noticing at customs, that the actual fees mount up.
Just saying, that unless you have succesfully imported stuff into your country, your final experience is unlikely to be as cheap as you now think.
(There are some exceptions. In Finland, I could legally do the paperwork myself, 23 years ago..)

Still .. the base is cheap .. just adding some factual detail on import/export stuff from someone who has done business in it for a long time.

You still save the 24%, but its not as much as you might think.
So the end price might be around 3000$ vs 5000.

[lcvette]

Typical customs brokerage (obligatory) are likely to be about 600$ in the US (for a 1000 kg / 1900$ pallet).
There are all sorts of declarations, some of which you cannot do, and need a professional/bonded agent.
Origin of goods/new goods/is the wood pallet fumigated & inspected, etc etc etc

We also have some fees (1-2%) + VAT (22% in Spain, typical), in all OECD countries.
The US is the only developed country in thw world without vat, btw.

I have about 25 years importing stuff into 4 countries...
(Finland, Uk, Spain, Tunisia) and from about 20 countries ...

There are many examples of people buying stuff into the us and noticing at customs, that the actual fees mount up.
Just saying, that unless you have succesfully imported stuff into your country, your final experience is unlikely to be as cheap as you now think.
(There are some exceptions. In Finland, I could legally do the paperwork myself, 23 years ago..)

Still .. the base is cheap .. just adding some factual detail on import/export stuff from someone who has done business in it for a long time.

You still save the 24%, but its not as much as you might think.
So the end price might be around 3000$ vs 5000.

I have succesfully imported stuff and large quantities and when the brokers failed to accomplish doing it properly I realized it was something I could do myself and more successfully I might add. I had extrusions and machined parts for CNC plasma table kits made and there is a restriction on aluminum extrusions to the US so the brokers I hired backed out saying it wouldn't be admitted through.. These were very big brokerage firms.. After about 3 hours of research I discovered what they should have known which was because the extrusions were part of a kit and not for resale they didn't fall under the restrictions. From North Carolina to NY by phone while my shipment was sitting in holding I was able to work with customs to get my shipment (1800kg) signed off on for a fraction of what the broker wanted to do it (before ditching me). If you contact customs ahead of time and speak to a representative they will help you determine any and all requirements to avoid costly delays which you speak of. I even contact the shipper because they screwed up arranging the correct port.. Was supposed to arrive at port of Wilmington, NC, not NY..lol. Shipper paid for trucking freight from there to here. I think most issues arise from a lack of understanding prior to the shipment leaving. To me this is far easier to learn in a few hours and phone calls then 500 work hours building a machine from scratch. By the way where is your build thread? I looked but only saw where you participated in others threads. Why not show off your work? It sounds like a very cool build!! Would love to check it out!

Also, where are you getting an additional $1000 from added to the cost? I have already stated the customs fee for the machine was $65 as per their website and the sea freight was included in the price I gave CIF which if you understand importing and exporting you know is different from FOB.

Chris

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