[MBG]

where do you guys get this $36 an hour for auto workers?

[MBG]

So do you guys think it is smart to invest in machinery or what? I wnat to start a shop..

[mxtras]

I used $36/hour from Evodyne's post - I am not sure, but I will take his word for it - sounds about right to me. The Ford plant here in town (Norfolk assembly plant, F-series trucks) hires in at over $12 for no-skill labor (clean-up, helper types). A buddy of mine was making close to $25/hour putting in wiring harnesses three years ago.

If you want to start a shop - go for it. I would not go crazy with machinery until you can be sure you can secure the work, though. Buy as you can - upgrade later. Advertise as much as you can and hang in there!! Sometimes walk ins can be a blessing, sometimes a real PITA. Quote accordingly. Give them what they expect and provide quality craftsmanship. Deliver on time or ahead of schedule and be consistent. Plan for success but prepare for failure. And get an accountant as soon as you start making money. And keep your day job for now. You will need income.

Scott

[pminmo]

My 2 cents, the sky isn't falling, it's just changing color. There is job change going on in the US, but it's because times are changing and goods, services and labor is also. How many blacksmiths and horse buggy manuracturers do we need today vs 100 years ago. The job for 2 cent widget that you make 100,000 a week has or will shortly be gone from the US. The $2000 widget prototype that company A needs yesterday, will stay in the US and demand is higher now than ever. There will always be jobs for construction, maintenance of buildings and homes and auto's. Your not going offshore to have a concrete patio poured in your back yard.
30 years ago we didn't have personal computers or software for PC's, cell phones, huge data networks just as examples and look at the US jobs that now revolve around those industries. (and I don't mean mfg of PC's) Look at the custom cars and Harley's out there going for BIG bucks. I deal periodically with machine shops and they are going unbelievable nuts doing one off's of specialized machines, specialized parts, prototypes. And I mean profit margins like they never dreamed of.

BUT, all of us US folks need to wake up to the cost of labor and support of it in this country and what the impact of that is in the global market. Social Security, unemployment insurance, pensions, healthcare, taxes all fold into the cost of what we produce. A great example is the automakers where you have a whole mix of countries, US, Germany, Korea, Japan..... It's pretty easy to see who is being affected and how GM, Ford, Kia, Hyundia, VW are dealing with world wide ecomonic forces.
Labor Unions have had their place and still could if they would wake up to the changes they need to make. Protecting dud employees is tearing unions down, as well as mixing health insurance costs with cheap healthcare and overvalueing certain jobs because a company is profitable at the moment. (going to a DR and making a $10 copay is cheap healthcare, having a necessary $30,000 operation is what you insure for) Unions need to realize that just because a company is doing well, doesn't mean a laborer is worth $70/hr. That attitude eventually drives jobs off site.

Just as 1 + 1 = 2, there are laws of ecomonics also. You don't sell a widget that costs a company $100 to manufacture if it can be bought for $5 from another supplier.

[MBG]

I used $36/hour from Evodyne's post - I am not sure, but I will take his word for it - sounds about right to me. The Ford plant here in town (Norfolk assembly plant, F-series trucks) hires in at over $12 for no-skill labor (clean-up, helper types). A buddy of mine was making close to $25/hour putting in wiring harnesses three years ago.

If you want to start a shop - go for it. I would not go crazy with machinery until you can be sure you can secure the work, though. Buy as you can - upgrade later. Advertise as much as you can and hang in there!! Sometimes walk ins can be a blessing, sometimes a real PITA. Quote accordingly. Give them what they expect and provide quality craftsmanship. Deliver on time or ahead of schedule and be consistent. Plan for success but prepare for failure. And get an accountant as soon as you start making money. And keep your day job for now. You will need income.

Scott

wow I never new that automobile installers made that much! wow.

yea I am not going to go crazy with machiner just a cheap cnc like a haas or someting like that (small). I want to keep it in my garage to keep the overhead down and I ,myself would be the sole employee.

[mxtras]

Haas isn't all that cheap - that's a reasonably good machine. You would be fine if that's the plan. Just make sure you can power it from your garage - this could be the biggest issue. If your overhead is low or non-existing then you will definately survive - even if you don't make any money.

As far as the automotive labor costs - can anybody verify the actual rates of UAW workers?

I hate to dwell on the auto labor topic because it is only one of a handful of issues but I think it has had a powerful influence on our global economic stance. A lot of money goes through that industry every year. How can we keep the money here in the States? Is there a way to reverse this fiasco (for the lack of a better term), or is it too late?

Scott

[MBG]

america is screwed... I heard we don't even own but 1/3 of it... :\


but yea I wnat the over head low and I will definitly keep my day job... I know how to program and everything (mastercam) just finding the jobs in the hard part....

[ger21]

wow I never new that automobile installers made that much! wow.

They also get somewhere between 35-45 paid days off a year. I work in a union cabinetshop (United brotherhood of carpenters). It takes 12 years to get 3 weeks off. And the top pay is around $23/hour (In our contract.) I've never been a big union fan. But it does get us good benefits and a pension, something not as common at local non-union shops. Living in Detoit you here about an awful lot of people making way too much money for what they do. I had a friend that used to work for the big local newspapers, Teamsters Union. They used to sometimes work 2-3 hours a night and get paid for a full day, and sometimes a few more hours would get them another shift at time and a half. When the company forced them to go on strike, and hired replacements, they felt they were getting screwed. No sympathy here.
Like Phil said, I'm fortunate to work in an indutry that can't be outsourced.

[mxtras]

pminmo -

Well said and straight to the point. To add to your statements (I think) we are immerging into a different age and we are not adjusting well in the global perspective. I don't think we are well prepared to drop our wrenches and sharpen our pencils... Especially when we are forced to put down the hand tools because we can't win at our own game (manufacturing).

Where did the steel industry go? Pittsburgh is like a ghost town! It scares the heck out of me to see the Bethlehem site - wow - it's just gone. And the building they put up there looks like crap, by the way.

The US still has some natural resource and mining advantages with coal, copper and moly, I guess. But even the moly and copper mines are hurting. Thank goodness we have salt...

Where have our advantages gone? What can we do?

Scott

[Evodyne]

Guys,

Interesting thread. Mxtras, I need to clarify myself, as I actually agree with you-yes, in their heyday the unions did set the stage for their current wages, etc. We were a more closed economy then, so in essence the narrower market supported them and made their wages possible. We are just in a different stage now. The market is broader, it has more players, and those players have different rules that give them an advantage. So we adapt out of necessity. I think as Americans we will find it more painful since, standard of living wise, we have more to lose. Standards are rising for many other parts of the world, but I don't see how average Joes like us can come out ahead here. Wages don't appear to be on an upward trend, yet our costs are.

The $36/hr and the higher health care figures came straight out of the newspaper a few weeks back-basically they were having the same discussion we are having.

The sad part to me is that none of the decline of Mr. and Mrs. America can really be blamed on other countries or anything that would make me feel better. I feel it's our own politicians and our own corporations that are boning us. It all boils down to greed (in my opinion). Maybe some isolationism isn't a bad thing. Who knows?

Can their be a silver lining? I'd like to think so. As companies downsize and trim budgets I think a lot of them will find it cheaper to contract out certain types of work. So opportunities open up to those who can take advantage of them. That is probably the secret-seeing new possibilities as old mainstays dry up.

Having said that I'm off to dinner. Bye!

Evodyne

[mxtras]

As you can tell, I enjoy discussing this topic. If you remember a few months ago there was a similar thread and I posted WAY too much - just like this thread. Sorry! I just want to understand and shared what I do understand and know first hand.

I agree - we did this to ourselves with the help of greed from the top but the majority of the blame is on us - just like you said. Period. The consumers wanted to make a gazillion bucks an hour but they did not want to pay for others to do the same. Is this hindsight? I don't think so.

From the first time I learned about labor unions and their impact on our economies, I forecasted this time would come in our country. I am sure that is not an uncommon forecast, but why is/was nothing done to make the changes sooner? I am certain that I - at 17 or 18 years old - was not alone in realizing that it couldn't last.

The strangle hold by the labor unions on just about every industry should be illegal - you can't fire someone if they don't come in to work for a month while they are on strike? What in the he!! is that? It's MY company, but I have someone representing the employees that dictates what I am going to pay them? Basically taking away my freedom to promote, hire and fire based on standard wage determinating criteria such as performance and attendance? Absolutely rediculous and 100% completely detrimental to the entire workforce and the company - and in the case of the Big Three - detrimental to the country, obviously. How many jobs have been lost in Detroit and Ohio and other automotive communities in the last 10 years? The jobs aren't lost - they are just no longer in the US.

Sorry for the rant. Have a nice evening, everyone!

Scott

[Evodyne]

It's funny how people are either 100% pro union or 100% against them. If you look back to the organization of the unions you'll find they were formed to use the united power of the workers to affect needed change. Child labor, sweat shops, unfair wages, decent work conditins; these things were all impacted by the unions. They took the absolute power from the companies which was needed. But like anything that moves they had momentum and like a pendulum they swung beyond center and into a zone where they wielded the power. So you end up with a guy who wont work that you can't fire: absurdity. But now I think your beginning to see business use the globalization issue as their new weapon of choice to start the pendulum back the other way. Will it stop in the middle? I doubt it-I think the question is how far will it go the other way. I actually think thay are necessary if only to keep the corporations from running slipshod over their employees. I'm a salaried engineer so I am NOT associated with any unions, but dad was a union guy through and through. I kinda see both sides.

Evodyne

[pminmo]

As a free enterprise person that isn't affiliated with labor unions, I do believe they have a place. I work each day with union represented technicians and free enterprise engineers. The union folks have some clout that have kept certain reasonable benefits that the free enterprise people have lost. If unions and company management worked as partners rather than enemies, did the right thing rather than what either side could get out of the other they could form an alliance that would be extremely successfull.

What a concept, people playing on the same team to win! Unions and company's, then politicians on each side of the isle working as a team to achive great things. Decisions based on truth, honesty and ethics..........

[MBG]

Soo... yea... hah

[MBG]

I am just scared that there won't be any jobs for me to do... That is if I do invest my money in some machinery.. My HARD earned cash :\...

I don't know what to do..

[Evodyne]

As a free enterprise person that isn't affiliated with labor unions, I do believe they have a place. I work each day with union represented technicians and free enterprise engineers. The union folks have some clout that have kept certain reasonable benefits that the free enterprise people have lost. If unions and company management worked as partners rather than enemies, did the right thing rather than what either side could get out of the other they could form an alliance that would be extremely successfull.

What a concept, people playing on the same team to win! Unions and company's, then politicians on each side of the isle working as a team to achive great things. Decisions based on truth, honesty and ethics..........

And you would think the concept would be such an obviously good thing that we would all be practicing it. But that doesn't seem to be the path we (as a whole) are on.

Evo

[Evodyne]

I am just scared that there won't be any jobs for me to do... That is if I do invest my money in some machinery.. My HARD earned cash :\...

I don't know what to do..

take some time to look into it. Look at how the other shops in your area are fairing. Ask their owners/employees-I'll bet you'd be surprised at how candid they might be. Are you going to go against them head to head? Are they barely making it themselves? What kind of volume do they do-and can your area support one more shop. Who are your potential customers? Do you know? Can you find a niche; something no one else is doing/tackling? This will sound wise-ass, and that's not my intent, but if you are scared it could be you are just guessing that you can pull it off. Why not dig and research till you know for sure that it makes sense?

Evodyne

[miljnor]

Love to see it but its a pipe dream. Its human nature to be selfish and greedy, I believe it is hardwired into our brain.

The barter system worked for the working class and some smart guy came along and made money. Then a lazy worker with a sharp mind came along and bought product A and sold it for product B and made a profit.

Human nature makes as do as little as possible for as much as possible. Thats why we have politicians, basically people with little or no skill at anything other that getting people to do what they want without them having to do it!

[MBG]

Love to see it but its a pipe dream. Its human nature to be selfish and greedy, I believe it is hardwired into our brain.

The barter system worked for the working class and some smart guy came along and made money. Then a lazy worker with a sharp mind came along and bought product A and sold it for product B and made a profit.

Human nature makes as do as little as possible for as much as possible. Thats why we have politicians, basically people with little or no skill at anything other that getting people to do what they want without them having to do it!

ahah funny stuff

[Evodyne]

Love to see it but its a pipe dream. Its human nature to be selfish and greedy, I believe it is hardwired into our brain.

The barter system worked for the working class and some smart guy came along and made money. Then a lazy worker with a sharp mind came along and bought product A and sold it for product B and made a profit.

Human nature makes as do as little as possible for as much as possible. Thats why we have politicians, basically people with little or no skill at anything other that getting people to do what they want without them having to do it!

Wow-I'm a politician and didn't even know it! Evo