[Haas_Apps]

It would not be the same as you and I having a conversation. You can, of course, summarize the entire conversation here if you like afterward.

If you want to remain anonymous you do not need to tell me anything that might identify you.

I have helped many people on this and other forums and that is all I hope to achieve in speaking with you.

Not only that, I enjoy speaking with others in manufacturing.

[pld0vr]

It would not be the same as you and I having a conversation. You can, of course, summarize the entire conversation here if you like afterward.

If you want to remain anonymous you do not need to tell me anything that might identify you.

I have helped many people on this and other forums and that is all I hope to achieve in speaking with you.

Not only that, I enjoy speaking with others in manufacturing.

It's not a matter of anonymity at all... I wouldn't have asked the question if I didn't want answers.

Let me ask a few questions...

It's been widely stated that the spindle is the same as the TM1p which is set to 6000rpm. Is this true, and if so are there any real mechanical reasons why this is a bad idea, other than the obvious safety issues?

As for the rapids, the same question applies... are they the same servos? What mechanical restrictions or differences are there in the design that would prohibit this?

I have asked HAAS technicians and they basically declined to comment on it.

Thanks,

Dan Pinder
Brass Nut, Inc
Director

[Donkey Hotey]

Are you dense or do you really not want help?(chair)

He's given you every opportunity to call him. For legal reasons, he can't put it in writing, on a public forum. Can that be any more clear? You're asking a factory representative to publicly post details on how to defeat designed-in safety features.

You just can't help some people. (nuts)

Ya' want some more stuff to feast on? We just bought a GR-712. It's a 10K RPM, greased spindle and it looks just like a TM-1 assembly (to my untrained eye). If you ask really nicely, I'll tell you why it's so much faster and why the TM-1 can't get there.

[Masher Mfg]

To be more correct, it's like buying a house and being told you can't use the linen closets or pantry. You physically own the property...would you allow the seller of your new house to have authority over and have a say in what you may use or do with what you have legally paid for? It's more than just a principal...

This isn't the same, if you bought a house and didn't pay extra for cable TV but the wire is there, would you complain you are not getting free TV?

How about if you have a Dish TV type system with paid basic programming, would you complain that the premium channels are not viewable unless you paid extra? After all you are paying for the dish, the signals are being received by your equipment, but you are being cheated out of extra programming by not being able to view them.

Another question, would you feel better if the physical memory and other premium software was not installed on your machine so you don't feel cheated? Answer truthfully. Now, would you be willing to pay extra to have a service tech come to your location to install the premium software that you have purchased? Oh, wait, if the software was preloaded all you would have to do is purchase " THE RIGHTS TO USE THE SOFTWARE " , type in the code and off you go. Remember, a software purchase consists of buying the right to use the SW and not the software itself, this is standard procedure in that part of the world.

Ever download a software package that has a free / low cost entry level then for a fee you can upgrade? Sometimes turning on the extra features consists of purchasing the access code. How do you feel about that?

I'm sure your response will go something like " What, do you work for Haas?" No I don't work for Haas or any other CNC company, I do however understand how such marketing systems work.

Yes, I know it is frustrating to have something "in there" but not being able to use it freely. But being you didn't pay for it, it really isn't in there.

[rawen2]

My take on it is that there is a difference between charging for software and hardware. The hardware (memory chips) is already installed in the machine so in effect it's already been paid for. It's just been deliberately disabled. The cost to enable it is pretty steep considering what it actually costs to include it in every machine. I am guessing that it actually cost Haas more to create the programming that ignores the extra RAM until unlocked since most computers recognize extra memory on boot up and automatically use it.

Features such as rotation and scaling, quick code, etc. are software and although they're already installed in the machine they didn't have much, if any, extra hardware cost to install. But software takes a lot of time to write, test and debug. I completely understand paying extra for those features.

Haas can do whatever they want and we are free to buy or not. But in my opinion it's not very customer friendly to install extra hardware and purposely disable it. Especially so in the case of RAM since it's dirt cheap these days.


Quote - "You're asking a factory representative to publicly post details on how to defeat designed-in safety features." - Unquote
No he wasn't, he was asking him to publicly post the reasons for not increasing the spindle and rapid speeds. He already figured out how to do it.

Ralph

[Haas__man]

Here's the thing. When you ordered your Haas machiine, you chose not to pay the extra $'s to get 16MB of memory.
If you didn't order the option then the chances are you do not NEED it. You would like it obviously, but you don't want it so much that you would actually pay for it.
Well - bottom line, you didn't pay for it, and you didn't get it. Sounds fair. If you had paid for it then you would be able to use it? But you did not. So you cannot.
The fact that the memory is physically there - is irrelevent. If you would like to use the 16MB option, then I'm sure that you could purchase the option during your call to Wayne

Hope this helps

[pld0vr]

Here's the thing. When you ordered your Haas machiine, you chose not to pay the extra $'s to get 16MB of memory.

bottom line, you didn't pay for it, and you didn't get it. Sounds fair. If you had paid for it then you would be able to use it? But you did not. So you cannot.

Ahh but this isn't true. I paid for the hardware... it's in the machine, but I still can not use it. I own the machine, and the memory inside... yet I can not use what is physically mine. Software if different... I don't mind paying extra for other software features... that is how software in our world works... but to disable hardware intentionally is pretty sneaky. I will never agree with this. If I had to clip in a new memory module I would not disagree with the extra cost... I only disagree with the act of disabling something I own already.

And as far as paying for it is concerned... that memory is worth only a few dollars. WTF is with the $1000 price tag.

I did not order the machine new. I can't justify buying new when lightly used is half the cost.

[pld0vr]

This isn't the same, if you bought a house and didn't pay extra for cable TV but the wire is there, would you complain you are not getting free TV?

How about if you have a Dish TV type system with paid basic programming, would you complain that the premium channels are not viewable unless you paid extra? After all you are paying for the dish, the signals are being received by your equipment, but you are being cheated out of extra programming by not being able to view them.

Another question, would you feel better if the physical memory and other premium software was not installed on your machine so you don't feel cheated? Answer truthfully. Now, would you be willing to pay extra to have a service tech come to your location to install the premium software that you have purchased? Oh, wait, if the software was preloaded all you would have to do is purchase " THE RIGHTS TO USE THE SOFTWARE " , type in the code and off you go. Remember, a software purchase consists of buying the right to use the SW and not the software itself, this is standard procedure in that part of the world.

Ever download a software package that has a free / low cost entry level then for a fee you can upgrade? Sometimes turning on the extra features consists of purchasing the access code. How do you feel about that?

I'm sure your response will go something like " What, do you work for Haas?" No I don't work for Haas or any other CNC company, I do however understand how such marketing systems work.

Yes, I know it is frustrating to have something "in there" but not being able to use it freely. But being you didn't pay for it, it really isn't in there.

I disagree with your cable and satellite explanation... I run a contracting company and install Cable/Telecom services. What you are talking about there is subscription services... not the same thing at all. Not even close.

I think the linen closet description was pretty fair and accurate.

The augment is that I did pay for it... and it is there. I can touch it. It's a physical thing... not a subscription to television services.

If your haas had a 4th axis sitting on the table... totally hooked up and ready to go... but to use it, you needed to pay $4000. How would you feel about that? You would obviously not be "paying" for the hardware... it's sitting right there. In fact, that hardware must be so worthless and inexpensive that they just install it on every machine... hmm... how much is ram again?

The memory deal is a joke. I'm sorry but that is crazy. Everything else can be somewhat justified, even though I may not agree with it.

[Excelmachine]

Having worked in a shop that purchased more memory for a Fadal and a Fanuc mill, I would much rather deal with Haas's business model where I can just make a call and have a code to enable certain features. In the long run, I feel that this method is cheaper. On our Fadal 4020, we paid more than $1500 for the increase in memory plus we also had to pay the service call as it was a physical board to be put in the controller and they wouldn't sell us just the board to install ourselves. I don't remember how much the Fanuc solution was, but I remember it being very painful.

[pld0vr]

Having worked in a shop that purchased more memory for a Fadal and a Fanuc mill, I would much rather deal with Haas's business model where I can just make a call and have a code to enable certain features. In the long run, I feel that this method is cheaper. On our Fadal 4020, we paid more than $1500 for the increase in memory plus we also had to pay the service call as it was a physical board to be put in the controller and they wouldn't sell us just the board to install ourselves. I don't remember how much the Fanuc solution was, but I remember it being very painful.

But if it is the machine, should they not just let us use it? No service tech would be required... ship it with 16mb of memory that is unlocked... don't try to screw us with charging more later.

[Excelmachine]

But if it is the machine, should they not just let us use it? No service tech would be required... ship it with 16mb of memory that is unlocked... don't try to screw us with charging more later.

Well, in my opinion, they are "saving" us money by only charging us for what we want with the machine and giving us the option to enable features via a phone call versus having a technician come out to turn something on. Personally, I would much rather have the features enabled via a code received by phone then having a technician come out, having to pay for his travel time, paying for the installation, down time while he fiddles with the machine and also losing money because the tech is fiddling with the machine instead of making chips. I can understand your point of view, knowing that it is there but inaccessable, but I really think it is the lesser of 2 evils.

[pld0vr]

Well, in my opinion, they are "saving" us money by only charging us for what we want with the machine and giving us the option to enable features via a phone call versus having a technician come out to turn something on. Personally, I would much rather have the features enabled via a code received by phone then having a technician come out, having to pay for his travel time, paying for the installation, down time while he fiddles with the machine and also losing money because the tech is fiddling with the machine instead of making chips. I can understand your point of view, knowing that it is there but inaccessable, but I really think it is the lesser of 2 evils.

Yeah but they already made the decision to include 16mb of memory on the machines regardless of ordered option. Thus, you have already paid for it. Choosing to disable it without an unlock code is not saving you anything.

[Haas__man]

So the company who originally purchased the machine from Haas did not WANT to pay for 16MB and they did not get it. Again - seems fair.
You then bought the machine from the original owners and now you do not have 16MB either.
I can see your point. From your view point you have physical memory that you cannot use - which is frustrating.
At the end of the day Haas is a business like any other - there to make money. If they gave everything away then they would make no money. If they make no money, then why build the machines at all?
Another point - does your machine have USB? If so then you already have unlimited memory, and 16MB would be small in comparison.

[pld0vr]

does your machine have USB? If so then you already have unlimited memory, and 16MB would be small in comparison.

I wish it did, but unfortunately it has the floppy. The 2005 models did not yet have the usb feature.

I do a lot of 3d work in aluminum... I'd like to upgrade to the HSM option, or at least try it out for 200hrs. In order to do that, I can't drip feed the machine, so I either need 16mb of memory or the only other option is the harddrive, which includes USB and ethernet.

I'd prefer the hard drive Ethernet option, but since I need to use DNC for my Mori Seiki lathe anyways... what makes more financial sense is to just up the memory and do it that way. I don't want to invest too much on upgrades because I would rather have a 2nd machine sitting next to it. With price tags around 19k w/ atc... it's best to put the money on mill #2.

[Haas_Apps]

Dan,
I will attempt to answer your questions. Before I do I want to make it clear that I am the Applications manager and do not work in Engineering or Service. That means that I am really just a CNC machinist/programmer. With that said I can only answer what I know and will not speculate on anything else. No matter what anyone thinks my answers are honest.

As far as the spindles being the same in the TM-1 and TM-1P I do not know. I do know that the TM-1 (no enclosure) was made about a year and a half prior to the TM-1P. The TM-1P was created due to customer requests for a TM-1 with an enclosure. Even if they are the same, and I do not know if they are, it is less safe to increase the spindle speed on this open machine.

As far as the servos and mechanical systems for the axis again I do not know. What I do know is that the parameters you have recommended be changed for the X, Y and Z axis do not even agree with the TM-1P.

As I stated in my original reply “I would really recommend not changing these”. You are, of course, free to do whatever you like with your machine.




Let me ask a few questions...

It's been widely stated that the spindle is the same as the TM1p which is set to 6000rpm. Is this true, and if so are there any real mechanical reasons why this is a bad idea, other than the obvious safety issues?

As for the rapids, the same question applies... are they the same servos? What mechanical restrictions or differences are there in the design that would prohibit this?

I have asked HAAS technicians and they basically declined to comment on it.

Thanks,

Dan Pinder
Brass Nut, Inc
Director[/QUOTE]

[pld0vr]

Dan,
I will attempt to answer your questions. Before I do I want to make it clear that I am the Applications manager and do not work in Engineering or Service. That means that I am really just a CNC machinist/programmer. With that said I can only answer what I know and will not speculate on anything else. No matter what anyone thinks my answers are honest.

As far as the spindles being the same in the TM-1 and TM-1P I do not know. I do know that the TM-1 (no enclosure) was made about a year and a half prior to the TM-1P. The TM-1P was created due to customer requests for a TM-1 with an enclosure. Even if they are the same, and I do not know if they are, it is less safe to increase the spindle speed on this open machine.

As far as the servos and mechanical systems for the axis again I do not know. What I do know is that the parameters you have recommended be changed for the X, Y and Z axis do not even agree with the TM-1P.

As I stated in my original reply “I would really recommend not changing these”. You are, of course, free to do whatever you like with your machine.

Fair enough. I fully understand why there is a greater safety risk in changing these options. I could see why this would be done at the factory. However... I am willing to accept the risks. For me, a reason not to do it would be "machine will catch fire" or "servo will melt" etc.

There are some people who have made full enclosures. As such there is no physical risk for them.

So out of curiosity... what are the settings in the TM1-P?

[Haas__man]

Could you tell me what software version is loaded in your machine?
The version will be displayed on machiine power up and will start with a 13.xx or a 14.xx.

[pld0vr]

Could you tell me what software version is loaded in your machine?
The version will be displayed on machiine power up and will start with a 13.xx or a 14.xx.

Unfortunately I can't. I'm setting up the new shop and the machine is not powered at the moment.

Why do you ask?

[Haas__man]

Older Haas machines used to come with a 1MB processor. To upgrade to 16MB you actually needed to pay for a new board and a tech to come and install it. Its relatively recent that Haas decided to put 16MB in all machines and have a code number to turn it on.
I think that a 2005 model would have the older style board and therefor only 1MB. If your software version starts with a 13.xx then you only have 1MB. If it starts with a 14.xx then you have 16MB option ready.

[Haas_Apps]

I can not give you that information. I hope you understand. If I did, it would be the same as me saying it was okay to change them.

Fair enough. I fully understand why there is a greater safety risk in changing these options. I could see why this would be done at the factory. However... I am willing to accept the risks. For me, a reason not to do it would be "machine will catch fire" or "servo will melt" etc.

There are some people who have made full enclosures. As such there is no physical risk for them.

So out of curiosity... what are the settings in the TM1-P?