[Kipper]

I have seen cnc machines that are worn out in the middle of there travel because the majority of work is done in the middle of the travel. Liner guilds do wear out in the same pattern as do vee ways. Physics don't you no.

If you know how to scrape and tune the problem is goes away.

I am not against the Mikini or liner guilds they all have there place. I am sure that liner guild are the norm. It is far easier and cheaper to set up a flat surface for liner guilds, then casting vee ways and tuning them.


Evan

Don't step in the bull**** on your way out lmao

[philbur]

My point was that you previously said:

"All I have to do on the IH mill is adjust the gibbs"

Now you have to scrape, so which is it.

Phil

Liner guilds do wear out in the same pattern as do vee ways. Physics don't you no.

If you know how to scrape and tune the problem is goes away.

Evan

[EvanVH]

No thanks

[Cruiser]

There are different types of linear rail systems out there and I have some on my mill to support the gear box. If mine wear then its just a matter of putting in new bearing blocks and keep on going. Many of the big Iron machines run circulating needle bearing packs that carry load and run on ground iron. I ran a big vertical turning center and we had to realign the machine quite often, replaced the bearing packs once and kept the machine true for many years. We would on some jobs do tolerance work of .0006" total or +-.0006 more often and stay in print. If everything is designed solid and maintained they last a very long time, The VTN10 was bout 20 yrs old and still running very solid.
Now for a quick question to you guys.
Why are we discussing the Mikini on the IH Thread ?
I saw where they made a splash here and then vanished (rightfully so !) but why don't they have their own thread ? Then you can compare over there and let them give the sales pitch.

[oltimer]

Cruiser
it's always the same crickets that can't pass up an opportunity to bad mouth ih anytime they can, even though most of them have never even seen the ih in action or in person. the highest form of flattery.
oltimer

[Kipper]

Now for a quick question to you guys.
Why are we discussing the Mikini on the IH Thread ?

Try reading the title of the thread...it gives a clue......Which you seem to be missing.

[oltimer]

Kipper
didn't miss a thing. just seems like you are treading on our current all around knowledge guy, philburs territory. hope he's not offended. cruiser is correct in saying this is the ih forum and the conversations should be about ih mills and such. hope you don't mind the humor.
oltimer

[Kipper]

Kipper
didn't miss a thing. just seems like you are treading on our current all around knowledge guy, philburs territory. hope he's not offended. cruiser is correct in saying this is the ih forum and the conversations should be about ih mills and such. hope you don't mind the humor.
oltimer

Don't mind at all

[philbur]

I think the thread has evolved into an "are linear ways a more durable/better proposition than Vee ways on a CNC mill" As the IH has Vee ways I would have thought that this would at least be mildly interesting to owners and potential owners of IH mills. From a general interest point of view I also would like to know the answer, however Evans points clearly do not hold water. I for one was hoping that somebody with the knowledge would jump in and lead us all out of the darkness. However it seems that some feel more comfortable in the dark and would prefer to keep others there for the company.

Phil

Kipper
didn't miss a thing. just seems like you are treading on our current all around knowledge guy, philburs territory. hope he's not offended. cruiser is correct in saying this is the ih forum and the conversations should be about ih mills and such. hope you don't mind the humor.
oltimer

[Cruiser]

"are linear ways a more durable/better proposition than Vee ways on a CNC mill"
IF ! This is the question then I'd have to simply say "NO" ! That being said as I believe it is a typo and meant "linear rails" as when it gets right down to it "V" or "Dove" slides are "linear ways".
Now what is best ?
Box column slide ways of course ! They are massive columns of cast iron with trued slide ways to guide and support roller bearing packs, which carry vast loads with minimal friction !
Next would be some sort of rail system if it was appropriate for the size of the machine, being it also would carry a load at a greatly reduced degree of friction, but at a higher cost than simply cutting Dove guides and using Gib's to control slop, or errant motion.
The simplicity of the Dove or V arrangement is obvious and there is a reason it is still being in use after 200 yrs. Most of it can be cast into the machine, and after machining it is ready to go. If it is designed well, then you have a solid and highly usable machine albeit plenty of lubrication applied.
As many of you know, I have the IH mill and am happy with it, for the most part ! It has its strength's and it has it weakness's. But, If all the weakness's were to be designed out of it then it would cost much more !
If by following a few rules of machining, the weaknesses do not show up in the work piece ! I mean the spring pass or finish pass !
the weakness's are primarily a factor of leverages applied within the system and that cast Iron being as mighty as it is will still flex, I have learned this to be termed by "plasticity" as it will flex under load and return to neutral. As with any machine design then the cure is to add more Cast Iron, And GENE has done exactly that !
The NEW version of the IH mill is much more rigid than the previous version which I have. And, I can still make highly accurate parts on my machine.
I have pushed my machine way beyond its design capacity to see what would happen. I then fixed the biggest weakness that I saw and easiest to fix. Gene did the same thing to the new version but at a much lower cost ! By adding cast iron inside the column where the inner, thinnest web of the dove can flex ! Remember the plasticity ?
Machining is a balancing act to put it simply ! The cutting of materials, with a tool, while taking into consideration all applied forces and tool / machine wear and power / rigidity applied, and don't forget the holding of the workpiece as it is also very important to not overcome ANY of the "Weak Links" within !
The people who purchase these machines are not Industrial Moguls, but simple people with a need, and a budget ! Many, have little machining experience, some have none ! Others like myself have many years of machining.
The first two questions a prospective purchaser posts are 1) can I afford it ? 2) will it do what I want ? and the questions very from there.
It all boils down to One major Item and that is IH's machine fills a void and has one hell of a lot of bang for the buck ! It is a work horse, not a toy ! It will last for many years, as it is, and not need a lot of upgrading to do its intended job.
Now back to the question of "Which is better ? " "V" or "slide rail" and the answer will have to be "WHY" ?

[EvanVH]

My point was that you previously said:

"All I have to do on the IH mill is adjust the gibbs"

Now you have to scrape, so which is it.

Phil

Which is it. You really don't know? Does it really matter to you? Or is this a game.

You adjust the gibbs for minor wear and you scrape when the accuracy of the machine has become unacceptable.

. From a general interest point of view I also would like to know the answer, however Evans points clearly do not hold water.
Phil

The answer to what? You won't find a definitive answer here its all an opinion.



Originally Posted by EvanVH
"I have seen cnc machines that are worn out in the middle of there travel because the majority of work is done in the middle of the travel. Liner guilds do wear out in the same pattern as do vee ways. Physics don't you no.

If you know how to scrape and tune the problem is goes away.

I am not against the Mikini or liner guilds they all have there place. I am sure that liner guild are the norm. It is far easier and cheaper to set up a flat surface for liner guilds, then casting vee ways and tuning them."


Kipper Kipper Kipper

"Don't step in the bull**** on your way out lmao"

No I don't know how to scrape. Never said I did. So there is no Bull Sh*t here! If you are trying to get a point across that is a childish way of doing it.


Kipper and Phil
There are plenty of places that you two can stir the pot and have a great time doing it. All I am trying to do is learn and helping others. Yes I have been wrong but who has not.



Evan

[oltimer]

evan
only crickets are perfect in every way. the sooner you learn this the better off you will be. how do i know this? they chirp your faults and then chirp their wisdom in every post.
oltimer

[philbur]

Cruiser you started so well and ended so badly.

For someone who has made up their mind what best suits their need then "WHY" (do I care) is a reasonable answer (for them), however it does little to answer what is the best for others. It is a catchy phrase but as an answer to the general question of what is best (for a particular need) it adds nothing.

I've just spent an hour or so reading through the relevant sections of "Precision Machine Design" and to sum up in a few words:

Linear sliding element bearing (Vee ways) - Can't be beat for rigidity but are limited on speed, acceleration and positional accuracy due to high fiction and the large difference between static and dynamic friction.

Linear rolling element bearing (linear guides) – Are relatively low on rigidity but can't be beat for fast and precise movements.

So it is horses for courses. However it seems that the IH might benefit from Turcite ways and a one-shot oiler for the ways. The Mikini would probably benefit from a higher spindle speed. There is no argument about which is better, in the same way that there is no point in discussing whether a knife is better than a fork, they have different functions.

Phil


PS: I aplogise for my sloppy use of the term "linear way". I should have learned by now not to leave myself so open when venturing onto hallowed ground. The correct terminology (after I looked it up) is of course linear rolling element bearing and linear sliding element bearing.

"
Now back to the question of "Which is better ? " "V" or "slide rail" and the answer will have to be "WHY" ?

[Kipper]

I don't remember ever saying anything regarding the quality of the IH mill.....must have been my fault for trying to help out with an adaptor plate. I notice runner never came back with his drawing!

I do remember saying that I'd rather have a "linear rolling element guide" equipped machine....as opposed to a dovetail equipped machine.

The title does say IH versus Mikini Mechatronics 1610L so maybe a comparison of opinions was being asked for regarding those 2 machines.

Sorry if I hurt the fanboys feelings

crick crick.....do crickets chirp or crick,crick..?

[halfstep]

Maybe one is better than the other, maybe not. If one is better than the other, it doesn't mean that one is bad and one is good. It simply means that one may be a little better than the other. But since one doesn't out do the other in every way, it leaves it open to opinion. In the end, both will do the job well and that's all that really matters.

[Kipper]

Maybe one is better than the other, maybe not. If one is better than the other, it doesn't mean that one is bad and one is good. It simply means that one may be a little better than the other. But since one doesn't out do the other in every way, it leaves it open to opinion. In the end, both will do the job well and that's all that really matters.

Give this man a cigar!

[EvanVH]

evan
only crickets are perfect in every way. the sooner you learn this the better off you will be. how do i know this? they chirp your faults and then chirp their wisdom in every post.
oltimer

Thanks for the words of wisdom. It is very funny that you mention crickets and the sound they make. I am taking care of a friends toad for the summer who eats crickets. So around my house crickets sound like crunch crunch crunch.

Thanks again oltimer



Evan

[Cruiser]

Turcite would be a great addition, If it were incorporated into the gib itself ! Then it could be possible to increase the tensions. It would not really be of benefit on the slide way for these machines as the surface area and oil are sufficient again for these size machines.
If you were to look at the machines I have seen, and the weight of the pieces running on the circulating bearing packs, You might realize what they mean by "Relatively". Being an engineer, you can understand that it is all in the surface area supporting the weight. And yes they can move fast but usually don't have to. I was amazed at the small size of these roller packs and the load they carried. Each one had it's own Gib so that the machine could be adjusted in any of the angles for each axis.
I did get a bit carried away on my last post, and I am NOT a word smith, I am a mechanic / machinist, and had a lot of HANDS ON !
I try to be careful with how I word things, Its just that I'm not always successful ! And thank you very much spell checker !

[Kipper]

Turcite would be a great addition, If it were incorporated into the gib itself ! Then it could be possible to increase the tensions. It would not really be of benefit on the slide way for these machines as the surface area and oil are sufficient again for these size machines.
If you were to look at the machines I have seen, and the weight of the pieces running on the circulating bearing packs, You might realize what they mean by "Relatively". Being an engineer, you can understand that it is all in the surface area supporting the weight. And yes they can move fast but usually don't have to. I was amazed at the small size of these roller packs and the load they carried. Each one had it's own Gib so that the machine could be adjusted in any of the angles for each axis.
I did get a bit carried away on my last post, and I am NOT a word smith, I am a mechanic / machinist, and had a lot of HANDS ON !
I try to be careful with how I word things, Its just that I'm not always successful ! And thank you very much spell checker !

High quality castings and Turcite on square ways is the ultimate for load bearing and speed combined with longevity in production it seems. Very large machines that won't be making an appearance in the hobby shop for some time.....If only it wasn't such an expensive item to have poured I'd have a new mill next week (I too bless the spellchecker lol)

[acondit]

The problem with a spellchecker is that if ewe used wards that are spelled correctly but are not the correct wards, it well not detect the errors.

Alan