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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > CNC "do-it-yourself" > Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine
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  1. #21
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,

    Provided your servos are adequately specified for the job at hand, and I would guess your 1.5kW and 2.3kW devices are very much in the 'well specified' bracket, then you'll never have to worry about them ever again,
    at least for a hobbyist machine under hobbyist machining conditions. My own 750W servos are almost outsized for my machine. Indeed when I was designing it I had in mind 400W servos. When I went to buy however I found
    that I could have 750W units for only an extra $40, less than 10% extra....so I got 750W servos. In many respects I'm glad I did because like you I saw and jumped on some very good 32mm diameter ballscrews in the secondhand market.
    I did not know or realise just how much the larger ballscrews would change things. As it turns out with 750W servos my somewhat oversize ballscrews are no trouble, but I probably would have been disappointed with 400W servos.
    Since that time I'm much more careful about conducting the momentum calculation. Its no so much that I want or need to predict exactly the demands in service, but rather to make sure that my idea is 'in the ballpark'. If it is the servos
    natural tendency to really 'give its utmost' will ensure that they do the job without complaint.

    Craig
    Thanks Craig for the long feedback on servos and computation of torque. Maybe slightly different question on the pictures you shared of your machine, specifically for the tilting table. I'm planning a similar architecture but directly embedded in the two sides of the frame. In term of dimensioning it, I'm planning to have an harmonic drive on one side, and a cross roller bearing on the other side to deal with both radial and axial force. On your setup, did you use a simple ball bearing on the right side ? and on the motor side, is it directly mounting to the axle with some gearbox ?

  2. #22
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi Nikken - I strongly disagree with vibrating a mould. This also depends on your epoxy you use. If you use a laminating epoxy that has thixotropic additions this makes the resin non-newtonian ie it resists flow and vibration won't help. eg the resin then becomes thicker proportional to its speed ie more speed more viscosity. If you use an epoxy with no additives that is designed to flow at small and large scale then vibration will separate the solids, large to the bottom small to the top. That's my experience. If you make the mixture correctly then no vibration is required. Technically with a low viscosity epoxy such is used for infusion you can dry stack the mould then pour the epoxy into it. It will flow through the entire dry stack quite easily, I've done this small scale... I'd expect your dry stack to be around 60% solid by volume so there's 40% gaps in there... Does Moretal shop spec the volume ratio od the 282?

    The biggest issue with epoxy granite is that epoxy is hydrophobic and your "dry" material will have heaps of water in it. I found this out while developing infusion processes for glass and carbon laminates. Its quite interesting watching water come out of a stack of an apparently dry material under vacuum. Takes 0.5 to 1.0hr to dry out a stack of even a small amount of stuff. But the results are spectacularly different when you vacuum dry the materials vs using "wet" materials ie materials that are directly from ambient. Thats also why may aerospace companies set up in the desert to minimise water affects. Peter

    I thought silimix was concrete and your using it for EG. The epoxy will stick to steel very well if its dry.

  3. #23
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi,

    I would recomend an experiment getting a length say 1.5m long of a tick section SHS, say 100 x 100 x 9 and then try hand scraping it flat. Unless you are made of very stern stuff
    it will defeat you.

    Scraping is fine if you are already 0.05mm to 0.02mm or better.....but at 0.1mm give up!. It is just too much work. Scraping is for miniscule quantities.

    Try it and see, and then ask yourself is this a viable technique to use on large parts requiring 0.1mm or maybe more?

    Craig

  4. #24
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,

    I would recomend an experiment getting a length say 1.5m long of a tick section SHS, say 100 x 100 x 9 and then try hand scraping it flat. Unless you are made of very stern stuff
    it will defeat you.

    Scraping is fine if you are already 0.05mm to 0.02mm or better.....but at 0.1mm give up!. It is just too much work. Scraping is for miniscule quantities.

    Try it and see, and then ask yourself is this a viable technique to use on large parts requiring 0.1mm or maybe more?

    Craig
    Oh I'm mostly planning potentially to have better contact with some of the frames part, as everything is going to be casted on the steel table, geometrically it should be accurate (no major warping of the mold, etc), surface roughness Ra of the melamine panel is in the range of 5 um. There are still many other parameters that will impact the overall surfaces, uneven thickness of the panels, etc which might create problems when assembling the 2 pieces together, surfaces might not match. I will scan the surface and see what it looks like, definitely anything beyond 0.1 mm will not be scraped. I can use a diamond grinding wheel to remove main irregularities, and then potentially fill with steel filled epoxy if I want a perfect bonding, which I don't think should be necessary anyway.
    I still want to be able to dissassemble/reassemble the machine (rail foundations alignement is going to be challenging, but could repour if needed).

    For the epoxy, it's low viscosity 700mPa at 25C, without any solvents or fillers. I'm very curious on your assessment because all the literature (Castillo German thesis in French) and previous builds all use vibration. As mentioned in literature, time is an important factor, too long you will get indeed separation, not enough acceleration seems to be the biggest factor. But on the small factor tests, I have run, vibration helps definitely to remove small cavities, without any, you can see it at the surface that you have lot of imperfections. I have also read the info on badhabit thread and your recommendation there, I'm still unclear as none of the litterature mentions to not vibrate.

    For overall ratio, it will be 9% in mass (ideally 8% but based on test, a bit too hard to cast properly), which should be around 15% in volume, so very different to the numbers you are sharing, meaning in my case the mix is very dry and not flowing, that's why vibration is required to remove lot of cavities/air removal (Because we are not using a vacuum process to degas. For water, the Silimix282 is dried before getting shipped, but storage will degrade that. It's much much better compared to standard gravel you can get in term of humidity, not perfect for sure, and I haven't measured humidity level, but based on previous builds it seems it's not a major problem.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails tests_epoxy_ratio_without_vibration.jpg  

  5. #25
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi Nikken - typical viscosity of epoxy I use is 220mPas (25degs) (ATL Composites kinetix R118) I have not used vacuum degassing, degassing large volumes of epoxy is difficult. Its the aggregate mixing that introduces air. My plan with epoxy cast parts would be to dry stack then pour in resin. That means that air is expelled as the resin fills the part. But I was very disappointed in mineral epoxy from a cost and performance view. Engineering grout based in CSA concrete is cheaper and stiffer (50GPa) & it shrinks less or same as epoxy. Plus being water based means water in aggregate does not matter. My flexure tests (by a test lab) on 60% ALOX (by volume) + epoxy got to 20GPa and ALOX aggregate is 200-300GPa vs quartz (sand) at 70GPa so a sand mix will be less stiff. Since I design machines for production vs one offs I came to the conclusion cast aluminium parts or billet steel or aluminium parts are better. If I were to make a one off machine I would do it in carbon fibre (80GPa at test) or glass fibre (30GPa) just because I can. If I have to make moulds I may as well go to long fibre composites. EG parts in the Maker area seems to be always cast very dry compared to what I do, maybe its the 200mPas. In the end it works out for the builder... large machines have very large geometry and mass that seems to be the key.... I design benchtop machines and strive for lightweight yet be super stiff and this has been a big challenge. I have failed to meet my expectations in materials and machine stiffness, its been a long journey & the search for the grail continues. Fullerenes maybe one day.... Peter

  6. #26
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi,
    for my fourth (trunnion) and fifth (platter) axis I used new old stock Atlanta Drive servo reducers, very similar to the one pictured.

    The trunnion table gearbox is 4 size (63mm between axis of the worm and the axis of the output gear), 58 series (2<arc min lash) of 19.5:1 reduction. It weighs just a little over 10kg.
    Cost me $180USD, new old stock, but ended up being $635NZD with currency conversion, tax and air freight, the air freight dominating naturally enough.
    It is beautifully made and very rigid for its size. It uses two largish taper bearings (100mm outside/60mm inside) and so I have relied on those to support the driven end of the trunnion table.
    The far end of the trunnion table is in two deep groove ball bearings. They are for radial stability only, the opposed taper bearing of the servo reducer provide the axial stiffness.

    The fifth axis platter is based on another Atlanta Drive servo reducer, a 98 series (1<arc min lash), size 3 (50mm between gear axes), about 8kg with a 6.75:1 reduction. Cost $150USD new old stock or
    $615NZD on my doorstep.Again I relied on the opposed taper bearings to support the platter. The platter itself is 150mm in diameter.

    I would perhaps likely have used harmonic drives, but there are a couple of issues, the first being cost. Even second hand that are a lot more than new old stock Atalanta servo reducers. Second is that
    they do not have bearings to carry the load, and thus you have to supply those yourself and engineer the bearing mounts, whereas I was able to use the existing opposed taper bearings, a huge saving
    in engineering time and cost.

    The last issue is reduction. Most harmonic drives are either 50:1 or 100:1 reduction. Lets assume for the moment that you choose 50:1, and drive it with a direct coupled 3000rpm servo. The max output speed
    of the drive is 60rpm.

    I have a number of continuous four axis toolpaths where the part rotates any hundreds or even thousands of rotations while the tool cuts at the periphery, not unlike a lathe with live tooling. I can tell you from
    experience that any fourth axis that is as slow as 60rpm is going to take an age to run those parts. You need a much higher rotational speed to make such tool paths practical. With my 19.5:1 reducer my fourth axis
    chuck rotates at 150 rpm, which is better, but still no great shakes.

    Now that I have made the fourth axis into a trunnion, then rotational speed is moot, but now the pressure comes onto the platter to rotate if you have toolpaths that require continuous rotary movement. Very fortunately
    my 6.75:1 reduction fifth axis drive means a continuous rotation of 440rpm with a 3000rpm servo.

    While a significant reduction like 50:1 or 100:1 is OK for a trunnion, it would be to slow for a continuous rotating fourth axis.

    The last thing you really need to think about is 'stack height'.

    Lets face it 90% or more or your jobs are going to be plain three axis, I think my batting average is about 95% three axis, 4% continuous four axis, 1% genuine simultaneous 5 axis.
    Thus for most of the time I remove my four/five axis (trunnion) assembly from my machine, whereon it reverts to three axis. When I fit the trunnion assembly I have to raise the Z axis for it to fit
    underneath. The top of the platter is 235mm above the bed, and this I effectively lose 235mm of Z axis travel. My Z axis has 350mm of travel, so it does fit, but only just. I can unbolt the Z axis
    and shift the whole thing upwards and regain that lost travel but its inconvenient. Ideally I would have a Z axis with 600mm travel, and then I could put the trunnion underneath and still have
    all the Z travel I need. A 600mm Z axis was then, and is still now beyond my means, thus I have to make do with the compromise that I have.

    The bottom line is that the 'stack height', that is the top of the platter from the bed is a critical dimension. The lower you can make t the better for preserving your Z axis travel. But then how do you
    fit a gear reduction, servo and bearings while retaining 'rocking' stiffness in small heights?. Cross roller bearings are good, but no way are they stiff enough to accommodate 'rocking' movement singly,
    you need at least an opposed pair.

    Whatever your solution, be it it worm drive, harmonic drive , cycloidal drive with crossed roller bearings, opposed taper bearings, you must try to maximise the 'rocking' stiffness of the platter while
    simultaneously minimizing the height. The fact that you have already pictured a large steel table suggests that you intend to have a solid bed, and thus any fifth axis assembly must sit atop it,
    thereby impinging on your Z axis travel. It is a conundrum.

    It is largely for this reason that I went for a traditional column design. I could, and did, make the column an extra 300mm taller so I could at need shift the Z axis upward to accommodate a trunnion
    assembly. I reasoned then, and still hold to that reason, that a column design allows for greater flexibility in design with regards placement of axes, clearances and similar. Downside to the column design
    is the the column itself must be incredibly stiff to achieve an overall target stiffness. Again, this is a conundrum. My choice in this matter was, and remains modular cast iron axis beds bolted to a large steel
    'L' frame, ie column and base in one piece.

    Craig

  7. #27
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi,
    what is it you intend that requires five axis?

    Of all the people whom come to this site fewer than one in twenty will ever build a machine of any description. Even fewer of those, maybe another one in twenty, perhaps less, go on to build a fourth axis
    let alone a fifth axis. Five axis is not really hobby stuff.

    Quite some years ago, maybe eight or nine, I bought the first of the two gearboxes. Only when it arrived did I truly comprehend how massive it was in comparison to my first mini-mill.
    About four years ago I started build the machine I have pictured above. One of the things that I wanted to do was make at least a fourth axis and utilise the gearbox I already had, and
    ideally make a trunnion/platter fifth axis. That is what I did, but it cost me nearly $5000NZD to make what you see....and the truth is I use it very little.

    I do not regret making it, it was a learning curve, and that I consider a good thing, but I do realise that had I spent that money on other items my CNC'ing would be improved more so than having
    a trunnion/platter fifth axis. This was more a case of 'I said I was going to do something so I dug my toes in a bloody well did it.' It was not especially well reasoned.

    It gets worse; because in order to use five axis you need five axis capable CAM software, and that is uber expensive. You might think that you can get away with hand coding, and that might even be true for
    indexing fourth, possibly even continuous and/or simultaneous fourth and even perhaps indexing fifth......but simultaneous fifth forget it!

    Mastercam with five axis starts at $25,000US plus annual fees. RhinoCAM, BobCAD and others of that ilk are $10,000US plus annual fees. There is NO free or cheap five axis CAM out there. The best cheap stuff
    I've seen is five axis indexing at best.

    I use Fusion Basic ($875NZD/year inc tax) and Fusion Machining Extensions ($2400NZD/year inc tax) for continuous/simultaneous fourth, indexing/simultaneous fifth, tool path editing and collision avoidance.
    So I pay dearly just to have the CAM software to exploit my trunnion/platter fifth. I can promise you I did plenty of research before subscribing to Fusion Machining Extensions, and if I could have found anything
    better or cheaper I would have taken it. So irrespective of how you feel about Autodesk and/or the subscription/cloud based model I can tell you it is about the best value package out there for five axis....
    and that is $3275NZD per year!!!

    If I were to repeat the design and build process I would not contemplate a fourth or fifth axis, or least until ALL the other boxes and been checked off.

    If you've followed any of my other posts you will know that a couple of months ago I finished a new coolant/tank and pump system. My little coolant tank system was struggling to keep up with lots of
    leakages, blockages, coolant interruptions.......all in all a PITA. My new tank is just over 200l , and is made out of 2mm steel. I made my own dual output three phase pump thereby saving myself $700NZD, but
    even the tank alone cost $1000NZD. The improvement to my CNCing has been huge.....no more leakages, no more chip blockages, no more coolant interruptions with consequent part failure.
    This would have been a better candidate for me to have spent money on rather than a trunnion/platter fifth.

    Before you go down a rabbit hole of a fifth axis I suggest you think critically about whether that is the best use of your resources. I would think that having funds for a decent spindle to be top of the list, followed
    by ATC, followed by a coolant system, ideally with through spindle cooling. These items have become the top of my list on the basis of experience.....I damn well know they are going to advance my CNCing much
    more so than a fifth axis say.

    I should not, nor do I want to put someone off an ambitious project, but I feel honour bound to at least inject a little real world experience into the process, and the truth is that five axis is very expensive.
    The demands on rigidity and accuracy are very high, and any shortcomings in either compromises the whole machine.

    Craig

  8. #28
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi Nikken - I spent over a year designing a 5 axis like the C42 (other machine builders have similar configs. Its a very robust design) and the gearboxes, tolerance stacks, backlash and getting the envelope to work was a super big task. So the project came to be called Epoch or Epic! If you are going down this path make sure you design the nominal trunnion and rotary now so the machine will work. Its a big geometry puzzle. The image is a pressed metal version then I was going to cast in Sika Grout... But next development machine will be a 7 axis robot... time to move along from simple simpler stuff... Peter

  9. #29
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi,
    Peters design is a purpose built five axis. There is no removing the trunnion table and revert to three axis, at least simply. Provided that the trunnion and platter are stiff enough then that is no disadvantage
    relative to a three axis machine......but.....with the best intent in the world however there is no such trunnion/platter assembly that can match the stiffness of a plain three axis machine.

    My own trunnion/platter is an example. While I tried to build as rigid and accurate as I could, it is still less than my three axis machine. Thus if I use the trunnion/platter just to do a three axis job I have to tolerate a
    less rigid setup, not hugely, but some....I'd guess about a third reduction. Could I have built a sufficiently rigid/accurate trunnion/platter assembly such that my machine was in no way compromised....well yes, I suppose I could,
    but that $5000NZD may well have ballooned up to $20,000NZD.

    My preference is then to build a three axis machine as well as you can, but may at a later date be added to to make five axis.

    As Peter points out that will mean some very conscious design decisions at the outset that allows the geometry to fit a fifth axis later. For instance my use of a column design that allows me to shift the Z axis module to accommodate
    a trunnion/platter assembly.

    Craig

  10. #30
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Yes for the 4-5 axis. I will integrate on the side walls, so it can be removed easily if needed for large pieces on 3 axis , I will have a total of 600 mm from bottom table to bottom Z axis at max distance, and planning for a diameter of up to 400 mm for the table.
    For the trunnion (4 Axis/A axis), an harmonic drive SHG50-80 (second hand from ebay for $600USD delivery included) paired with 1.2kW servomotor 2000 tr/min
    For the 5 axis table (C axis), I have a precision wormwheel/wormgear pair from a Nikken trunnion table (spare parts I got for free), with a 1kW servomotor in 80 size.

    For high speed configuration I'm not sure yet what I will do, but not a design requirement at the moment.

    In term of integration and design, yes that's what I'm currently finalizing to make sure everything is prepped in the frames for casting in August. I will share more CAD this weekend, and some computation on the tolerance stack, precision expected, and I haven't started too much on FEA simulation, just some rough computation of efforts for dimensioning the bearings, etc.

  11. #31
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi Nikken - Just interested - Can you explain the logic how you decided to go for EG? and I don't think "remove easily" for the 4&5 will work out that way. Setting it up again will take so much time that maybe after the first time you'll never do it again. A trunnion on the bed maybe the better config for the occasional 5 axis. If its mainly for 5 axis work then design it to be the best 5 axis you can & forget about the 3 axis option.... The best machines fit a purpose, the more general the machine becomes the more compromises have to be made...

    I have thought about the following : There is always a lot of dead space at the rear of such a machine due to the fwd stack of the Z axis. In my designs with the rail on top it would be useful to have a rear spindle to use this space. So you could have a 5 axis at the front and a 3 axis at the rear. 80% of the stuff is there to do this maybe 90% of the stuff.... just a thought...then you need front and rear access so also depends on space limits in your workshop.... Peter

  12. #32
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi,
    that is indeed the conundrum.

    If you build a high-side machine with a trunnion mounted between the walls then you can arrange the gantry to be at such a height that you can exploit the full Z axis travel.
    If you were to remove the trunnion then the Z axis will now be the equivalent of the 'stack height' of the trunnion/platter and vise above the table. To mount some sort of extension so that
    the spindle can go lower is to significantly increase the torsional moment on the gantry.

    High-side machines have some advantages but the single biggest disadvantage is trying to maximize Z axis travel, and indeed all gantry designs struggle with this same point. The greater the Z axis
    travel the greater the torsional moment applied to the gantry requiring an ever torsionally stiff gantry.

    I would suggest that you adopt either of these two mutually exclusive arrangements:

    1) Make a high-sided machine with the trunnion mounted between the walls and NEVER plan on removing it. That is to say the machine is always four/five axis. Then the walls can be made at whatever height,
    so the gantry can in turn be at an optimal height that you can maximise the useful Z axis travel while simultaneously minimize the torsional flex of the gantry. This places a great burden that the trunnion and platter
    be accurate and rigid, as every part you ever make will incorporate any deficiencies or flexure of both.

    2) Design a machine essentially as three axis with the option of adding a fourth/fifth axis at a later date. Given the 'stack height' of a trunnion/platter, then it maybe that a high-side machine is less than an optimal arrangement.
    Alternately you might want a high-side machine with 'side wall extensions' that sit atop and bolted to the high-sides when you deploy your four/five axis to regain Z axis travel.

    Craig

  13. #33
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi Nikken et al - After spending a lot of time reviewing 5 axis configs I ended up designing Epoch as the machine ended up very close to my Scoot machine except I added small columns on top of the walls to account for the rotary assembly. In this way I could use my std Scoot design & parts, add a large rotary to the machine bed then up the gantry height on the columns. But after doing all of that I realised that half of the machine is doing nothing as the rotary allows the spindle access to all areas of the parts. I then came across the attached config which makes so much sense, no wasted structure for the 5 axes.... I prefer stationary beds so I'd make it a moving column design vs rotary plus the the linear Y axis ie the Y axis would be achieved by moving the column in and out. This means no way covers needed... Just a thought. If the rotary was not integrated to the base it would be removable and then you have your 3 axis machine with nearly no downside as the head would come "down" to a reasonable height vs getting longer/higher in the high wall arrangement.. Plus sliding a rotary on and off and centering it is easy compared to setting up a trunnion assembly... Peter

  14. #34
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    Re: Large Epoxy granite 5 axis steel milling machine

    Hi,

    To answer a few questions:
    - EG choice, I don't have a direct access to a mill, and using EG is an "easy" choice in order to build a solid base (frame and gantry) for the entire machine that will need my exact needs. There is also the technical challenge associated with it and learning it. I don't believe there is a perfect solution, it mostly depends on the constraints of the project.
    - Overall I agree that every machine should be specialized for what it will be needed it for, in my case, it's more a technical challenge in order to be able to build upcoming projects, so yes I could build 2 machines, one 3 axis, one 5 axis but that's not part of the equation for now. Hermle machine are designed such that it can technically support a fixed table for 3 axis configuration and a 5 axis with the trunnion. I mostly see two options in my case
    - Be able to remove the table, so the trunnion can be installed without losing any Z height, and fully leverage it in a 5 axis configuration. Main challenge is to deal with the weight of the table and where to store it (either remove it from the front with an engine crane or be able to slide it at the back/bottom of the machine (which is technically possible).
    - Not removing the table, installing the trunnion using the side walls to integrate it and losing some capacity in the Z travel distance in 5 axis configuration. (Currently the option preferred, easier to achieve, not compromising too much the 3 axis design and easy extensible for 4-5 axis). the design would be very similar to this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QOM-byMB2E where you have openings on the side wall to mount the harmonic drive on one side and bearing on the other side. I will cast an oversize hole/opening with inserts so I can then mount the support for those elements in it with tight tolerance for the assembly of the 4-5 axis.

    Let's say for this machine, 5 axis is part of the longer term project as a technical challenge (and right now fusion with Machining extension would be the easiest for the SW).

    Regarding the top list items you mentioned Craig (joeavaerage), yes upgrading the spindle is part of it (to either BT40 or HSK), I already have an ATC that will be integrated, it's part of the central pillar at the back of the gantry. That was part of my requirements for the machine. For spindle through coolant that will come with the spindle upgrade, I already have 2 pumps for the coolant, a regular one and one "high" pressure one (20 bars).

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