[arie kabaalstra]

there's off course more than just a GUI.. Someone stated that Mach was cheap, and it could be run on half decent hardware.. Well... a friend of mine disagrees on that last statement..

He built a CNC, and ran it on Mach.. in order to get everything out of the machine, performancewise.. he had to really Whip the PC to it's limits.. giving huge CPU load.. high chipload in the machine.. no problem.. a high chipload in the control?.. Bad..

Ok.. buying Mach is cheaper.. but.. Mach is ONLY the software.. i've seen numerous machine projects with all kinds of breakout boards.. which one to use?.. there's no "One stop shopping" solution.. i've seen breakoutboards, smoothsteppers, whatnots , doodadds, thingamajigs, watchamacallits, and wiring the whole thing can prove a nightmare..
With Eding CNC, you don't pay for the software.. you pay for the hardware.. Wiring is easy.. all flatcable connectors, and there are flatcable connectors that screw straight into your stepperdrives as wel as solidstate relays...

Furthermore.. the Macro File.. that is one hell of a powerfull feature, program a parametric sub, with a dialog.. and perform standard operations in a jiffy.. Ok.. Mach has its wizzards.. but still that nasty cluttered layout..
EdingCNC also has Look ahead feed, this enhances the speed throug contours with lots of small elements, like from drawings made with Corel Draw.. or.. complicated 3D work.. really speeds up production.. i've compared my machine to a bridgeport... made a wheel for a scalemodel car.. on the bridgeport.. 4 hours.. on the Beagle ( my machine ) also 4 hours.. but that was for 4 wheels instead of 1...

[LeeWay]

I rarely use very many buttons at all on Mach 3. I'm not intimidated by them being available though. While a console machine might be nice, I would not be using many buttons there either. I prefer to let CAD and CAM handle all the button pushing or at least as much as it can. Since I have many parts that get made every week and operators that actually push the buttons, for them, less is more. I have made a few of my own Mach 3 screens to add a couple buttons and eliminate some things, but really I don't find the Mach 3 screens bad to deal with at all. There are nicer free screens available too. I am not going to bite the hand that feeds me. Mach3 runs all of my machines just fine.

[vingchocho]

there's off course more than just a GUI.. Someone stated that Mach was cheap, and it could be run on half decent hardware.. Well... a friend of mine disagrees on that last statement..

He built a CNC, and ran it on Mach.. in order to get everything out of the machine, performancewise.. he had to really Whip the PC to it's limits.. giving huge CPU load.. high chipload in the machine.. no problem.. a high chipload in the control?.. Bad..

Ok.. buying Mach is cheaper.. but.. Mach is ONLY the software.. i've seen numerous machine projects with all kinds of breakout boards.. which one to use?.. there's no "One stop shopping" solution.. i've seen breakoutboards, smoothsteppers, whatnots , doodadds, thingamajigs, watchamacallits, and wiring the whole thing can prove a nightmare..
With Eding CNC, you don't pay for the software.. you pay for the hardware.. Wiring is easy.. all flatcable connectors, and there are flatcable connectors that screw straight into your stepperdrives as wel as solidstate relays...

Furthermore.. the Macro File.. that is one hell of a powerfull feature, program a parametric sub, with a dialog.. and perform standard operations in a jiffy.. Ok.. Mach has its wizzards.. but still that nasty cluttered layout..
EdingCNC also has Look ahead feed, this enhances the speed throug contours with lots of small elements, like from drawings made with Corel Draw.. or.. complicated 3D work.. really speeds up production.. i've compared my machine to a bridgeport... made a wheel for a scalemodel car.. on the bridgeport.. 4 hours.. on the Beagle ( my machine ) also 4 hours.. but that was for 4 wheels instead of 1...

I get it, you are trying to sell a product you helped design and no doubt get a cut of the sales but this strikes me as those idiotic commercials hawking some new gizmo that have the actors that have terrible difficulty cutting paper with "normal" scissors or can't clean their ears without poking their eardrum. how genius must be the people that CAN use mach 3 and connect a breakout board to their drivers. the ones that can create their own screens must be off the chart mensas by comparison to your target market. maybe that's who the developers of the gecko g540 had in mind, plug it into your pc, plug in your motors, power it up and you're ready to go, pretty minimal gray matter necessary.. i think the eding maker should consider making his hardware work with mach 3 or linuxcnc to attract a bigger crowd that prefer those ui's and vise versa make the eding ui work with all the other available motion controllers the smarter people figured out how to wire together but want a ui to remind them of THEIR first cnc machine. in the meantime waiting on your commercial showing just how difficult it is to use a mouse to click the buttons on your screen, F-keys are the wave of the future! lol.

[arie kabaalstra]

Well.. i'll let you ibn on a little secret.. i designed the Layout for FREE.. and i don't get any commission for selling EdingCNC..
the reason EdingCNC is a hardware-software package is that everything is made to work with the other part.. Software runs without hardware for evaluation, or as a G-Code backplotter.. or.. to devellop new macro's you dont trust enough yet to test on the machine..

i'm gonna be straightforward here... no intention to ridicule anyone.. but the main reason i use EdingCNC is not just the fact i designed the layout, but it that it WORKS..you don't need to be a Mensa to operate a CNC machine.. far from it.. Dedicated hardware is in my opinion the way to go.. i know that Bert is thinking of, or even already working on a Linux version... the reason he made the CPU 5a, with the 25 Pins Connector, is for people how used Mach, and switched to EdingCNC, they only had to re-wire the 25Pins connector to their drivers and other hardware..
i've built 2 machines with this CPU it was a breeze to build.. i used a 25Pins-to screw-clamp PCB.. because the CPU itself was also mounted in the controlcabinet..

a mouse.. i have one at my PC.. i hardly use it.. really.. guess it's a leftover habit of the old DOS days.. where you navigated with the Tab key.. still works.. i did a "game" once with a younger person.. find something on the internet.. he used a mouse.. i did not.. i beat him..i found the information sooner..

But on a CNC machine.. i'd rather have dedicated keys.. no fuzz with a mouse.. just hit some keys like on professional machines.. I don't know any machine that operates with a mouse..

i've noticed that a lot of people don't even know how to operate a PC without a mouse.. take dialogs for instance.. i see people clicking on every field they have to enter information.. What about the Tab key.. this old DOS functionality is still available.. just like with some old DOS applications tht used F Keys to enter certain functions..

[vingchocho]

DOS huh. does your machine still run on punch tape? You still use a rotary phone? Still have to crank a handle to start your car? lol. this sounds like a cross of steampunk and neo-luddite philosophies.

[xjdubber]

isnt steampunk neo-luddite by defenition?

[arie kabaalstra]

Let me put it this way... MUST we always embrace new technology?.. take for instance the Tesla Model S, an Electric car.. it looks nice..in fact it's safe to say it is a beautyful car.. but a Touchscreen to operate things like the sunroof?.. or the radio, Satnav?.. try that on a bumpy road...

to operate such a device you Need to look at it.. not the best of ideas when driving a motorcar, happily covering like 20-30 meters every second... there is absolutely no tactile feedback from a sheet of glass.. other than you know that you touch it.. but you have to look where you're touching it..
my car, is an old BMW 316i Compact.. no touchscreen.. the only thing electronic in it, is the fuel injection.. hell.. even have to hand-crank the windows down.. the sunroof however.. is electrically operated.. but not with a touchscreen.. i can just reach out to the ceiling of my car.. there's 2 buttons near the interior light, just above the mirror.. the convex button closes the roof, the concave one opens it.. the first is in the front, the other is in the rear.. like they are already indicating the direction of the roof, when you push it..
Heating?.. same story.. there's three knobs.. Fanspeed.. temperature and flow. side by side in the central console.. don't have to look at it.. i can feel them..
windscreenwipers, headlights, indicators, horn.. all at approximately the same position.. on about every car.. there is a good reason for that..

Ever noticed that the F, and J keys on your keyboard have a small bump on them?.. that allows you to feel where your fingers are.. try typing blind on an Ipad.. ain't gonna work..


If i fire Up my machine.. i know the F-keys sequence, to reset, and enable, home, select axes, back to main menu, and do what ever needed.. i don't even have to look what i'm doing.. i can feel that.. you don't feel buttons with a mouse.. you can see them on a touchscreen.. but if you have all buttons scattered all over the screen.. your entire screen will become dirty.. or are you going to wash your hands 100 times a day?..

[bhurts]

I respect your desire to keep things looking and feeling like the industrial environment you are use to. What I'm trying to picture is how having a screen with 50 buttons or a panel with 50 buttons makes one more accessible and easier to use. They are essentially the same. One you use your finger to push the button and the other you use a mouse.(or your finger with a touchscreen) The real difference is time, labor, and knowledge needed to build the panel. For most people that makes it a deal breaker. Now realize that having a f key on your screen or on your panel doesn't change the outcome when you push it.

Now let's get old school progressive. To reach out to user with your mindset as well as reaching the more modern thinkers shouldn't be that hard. First you need a simple screenset like you are using that makes it easy to see just what is important when running parts. (I actually like this idea.) Then ditch the panel in favor of a modern alternative. (Why? Because software is much easier for your average user to implement then hardware.)

Now how to get a panel that works for you and us? Easy just add a second screen. The screen can look but admittedly not feel just like what your accustomed to. All the buttons would be virtual but on a separate monitor. For you a touchscreen may work better so you can use your finger. For others a mouse will work equally as well. The best part is adding and subtracting buttons does not require a hardware change.

Now you would have something with the look and most of the feel of what your use to without all the hard work and electronics expertise.

Who will write this software? Not me but I hope someone does. Since modern computers almost universally allow multiple monitors with different items available on each one it's not a very far fetched idea at all.

You could then have your simple screen layout and panel while still being in the reach of the majority of your users.

Ben

[aarggh]

The one simple fact that keeps getting missed in this thread of the vast superiority of a mouseless hardware controller over a mouse driven controller, is that by far for the majority of hobby users that are using mach3, their controller is also their work and design machine.

How do you achieve that on a mouseless/OS'less hardware controller? There's only so much you can easily do with the tab key.

This whole argument reminds me so much of the Linux vs Windows wars several years back, when Linux, the vastly superior and more stable and secure environment was going to take over the desktop market, except it didn't. I do consider Linux to be far better, I use it on most of the servers I look after, but would I use ii for my desktop, not likely. Why, because Windows is just simpler to use and configure, and has very simple general support. People will always fall back to the simplest thing they're most comfortable with, and that for most people in a nutshell means Windows PC's, with the obligatory mouse, despite what all the " experts" say to the contrary. Except of course the more adventurous people using LinuxCNC, with a mouse of course.

cheers, Ian

[arie kabaalstra]

Like Aarggh states.. a lot of people use the same PC for Design and Cam, as well as machine control..

i found that a lot of people especially hobbyist machinist want to build everything for a bargain..
Personally i don't think running Cam, and CNC control on one machine at the same time is a good idea.. so most of the CNC controlPCs are the cheaper ones.. while the powerhousePC is used vor CAD and CAM.. well.. nothing wrong with that.. i use a 2.7GHz machine for internet, CAD/CAM , my Bookkeeping and such.. the CNC is driven by a measely 1.6GHz Intel Atom Mini-ITX, becasue it fitted nicely in my control Cabinet..

For a lot of people even building an enclosure is considered "too expensive".. i think i spent about €800,- on my enclosure.. €500,- on steel sheet alone!.. the rest, buttons, Printed Circuitboard, a Pokeys device, wire, plexiglas and paint.. and €60,- on the Heidi Panel..

Before i had that.. i used just the keyboard to operate my machine.. nothing wrong with only a keyboard..i did have a pendant though.. with an electronic handwheel, start and stop button, axis selector and a touchpad.so i could operate the machine away from the keyboard..

If jou have a very LARGE machine.. you could make a pendant with a second screen.. a 10" touchscreen would be great.. acces to all functions.. like taking the entire console with you into the machine..

you can run a CNC on a "light" pc.. before i installed the Mini ITX intel Atom, i had a second hand Dell, cost me only some €50,-, for the lathes i bought two 15" touchscreens and 2 HP 7900 PC's for only €300,- at a second hand computer trader..thus only €150,- for one CNC console.. keyboard for €20, so at €170,- you are done!..

I am a tinkerer.. i like to make all kinds of things.. that's why i built the Heidi panel to my machine.. i also am sort of a developper for EdingCNC, trying out new features, and programming options.. i don't know if Mach has the option to make dialogs in NC programs?.. or if you can make an NC Program that writes data to a file?.. I made programs that write other programs...i made programs that work with a touchprobe, and write a measurement report, stating all measurements, and a GO/NO GO for the measured product.

that's why i have this console...to try out things.. i like tinkering.. as i said before.. at first.. i didn't know what to do with the "Cycle-Def" button on it. but since the last release of EdingCNC i know.. it now opens the User menu, because i can write macro's that execute certain cycles, like drilling, pocketing, surfaces and patterns of cycles..and i found a way of putting those cycles in a program, thus creating the same functionality as a Heidenhain control.. programming at the machine..

I am well aware of the fact that most hobby machinsts don't know much about programming in plain G-Code, and make their programs with CAM.. but.. everyone who ever worked with a Heidenhain or Siemens CNC control, knows how easys dialog programming can be for "non-artistic parts".. on the lathe i program watchcases at the machine.. just a series of turning operations of different diameters and depths, some chamfers and fillets.. that's basically all..just key in the dialogs, execute.. Ok?,.,, store in program.. next dialog..
First part done?.. load stored program.. execute next part in one go...
I am as i said also a sort of devellopper for EdingCNC.. making these cycles.. and the aim is to embed this programming system into EdingCNC.. Just like Mach.. a lot of machinebuilders are now using EdingCNC on their machines...

[louieatienza]

Like Aarggh states.. a lot of people use the same PC for Design and Cam, as well as machine control..

i found that a lot of people especially hobbyist machinist want to build everything for a bargain..
Personally i don't think running Cam, and CNC control on one machine at the same time is a good idea.. so most of the CNC controlPCs are the cheaper ones.. while the powerhousePC is used vor CAD and CAM.. well.. nothing wrong with that.. i use a 2.7GHz machine for internet, CAD/CAM , my Bookkeeping and such.. the CNC is driven by a measely 1.6GHz Intel Atom Mini-ITX, becasue it fitted nicely in my control Cabinet..

For a lot of people even building an enclosure is considered "too expensive".. i think i spent about €800,- on my enclosure.. €500,- on steel sheet alone!.. the rest, buttons, Printed Circuitboard, a Pokeys device, wire, plexiglas and paint.. and €60,- on the Heidi Panel..

Before i had that.. i used just the keyboard to operate my machine.. nothing wrong with only a keyboard..i did have a pendant though.. with an electronic handwheel, start and stop button, axis selector and a touchpad.so i could operate the machine away from the keyboard..

If jou have a very LARGE machine.. you could make a pendant with a second screen.. a 10" touchscreen would be great.. acces to all functions.. like taking the entire console with you into the machine..

you can run a CNC on a "light" pc.. before i installed the Mini ITX intel Atom, i had a second hand Dell, cost me only some €50,-, for the lathes i bought two 15" touchscreens and 2 HP 7900 PC's for only €300,- at a second hand computer trader..thus only €150,- for one CNC console.. keyboard for €20, so at €170,- you are done!..

I am a tinkerer.. i like to make all kinds of things.. that's why i built the Heidi panel to my machine.. i also am sort of a developper for EdingCNC, trying out new features, and programming options.. i don't know if Mach has the option to make dialogs in NC programs?.. or if you can make an NC Program that writes data to a file?.. I made programs that write other programs...i made programs that work with a touchprobe, and write a measurement report, stating all measurements, and a GO/NO GO for the measured product.

that's why i have this console...to try out things.. i like tinkering.. as i said before.. at first.. i didn't know what to do with the "Cycle-Def" button on it. but since the last release of EdingCNC i know.. it now opens the User menu, because i can write macro's that execute certain cycles, like drilling, pocketing, surfaces and patterns of cycles..and i found a way of putting those cycles in a program, thus creating the same functionality as a Heidenhain control.. programming at the machine..

I am well aware of the fact that most hobby machinsts don't know much about programming in plain G-Code, and make their programs with CAM.. but.. everyone who ever worked with a Heidenhain or Siemens CNC control, knows how easys dialog programming can be for "non-artistic parts".. on the lathe i program watchcases at the machine.. just a series of turning operations of different diameters and depths, some chamfers and fillets.. that's basically all..just key in the dialogs, execute.. Ok?,.,, store in program.. next dialog..
First part done?.. load stored program.. execute next part in one go...
I am as i said also a sort of devellopper for EdingCNC.. making these cycles.. and the aim is to embed this programming system into EdingCNC.. Just like Mach.. a lot of machinebuilders are now using EdingCNC on their machines...

Arie, your build and videos turned me on to EdingCNC. I used Mach3 and SmoothStepper USB controller on my last small machine. I ran into quite a few problems, which were not easy for me to solve... though I dod solve them, and part of the learning is solving problems.

I decided to try the CPU5A board and CPU5A software, and the price of the board (the software is free) costs as much as Mach3 and SmoothStepper. I found Bert's board/software a lot easier to configure (though I've tried talking to him about making the parallel port pin-compatible with the GeckoG540.) I had a special parallel cable made. I must say I was surprised how much better the machine performed (and have documented this on YouTube.) I like the USBCNC interface a lot, and everything just seemed to work, the first time,

I also decided to jump the G540 ship and try Leadshine's DM542 drives. I hate to say as a Mach3 (and Gearotic) user I was amazed at the difference in performance (also documented.) My larger machine still has Mach3 control and parallel port to G540 and it works just fine. But trying out the CPU5A3 and USBCNC and Leadshine drives really opened my eyes to what else is out there. As a bonus, Vectric VCarve Pro's EMC post-processor works perfectly with USBCNC so there was no need to fiddle with the g-code. I even post from OneCNC with just a couple small changes to the g-code (need to tweak the post-processor a little bit.)

I don't think Arie's observation of Mach3 is an insult to it as some here suggested. It's an honest observation, one that more people than less are reluctant to admit to. Anyone though can skin it however they like and there are pretty good ones (Gerry's 2010 screenset and MachStdMill are a couple.) The USBCNC interface also works great with touch screen as I tested it last. Admittedly I'm in the process of designing a control box similar to Arie's - was able to get a spill-proof touch screen and stainless steel keyboard from a kiosk - but life's been getting in the way.

As to Ben's idea, a second touchscreen, where the buttons configure differently depending what's on the main screen would be pretty darn cool....

[arie kabaalstra]

First of all, thanks for pointing out that EdingCNC performs better than Mach.. i never ran Mach on my machine, because i couldn't even figure out how to operate it..

if the pinout was compatible with Gecko's 540 it would not be compatible with other drives.. and if you buy some cable and some connectors, you can make your own cable in lets say 15 minutes time.. ( i had to solder a 25 lead cable to connectors for my Heidi keyboard!. half an hour maybe?.. furthermore, i use the CPU 5B, which doesn't have a 25 Pin connector.. all is done with box headers.. and my supplier ( DamenCNC) has connector prints that connect to Leadshine drivers, and can be hooked up tu the CPU board with flatcable..

I've looked at the idea of a second touchscreen... there's one problem.. a touchscreen lacks tactile feedback.. you don't feel the buttons, which means you have to look at the screen while touching buttons..

For changing modes, not a problem, for jogging a machine.. BIG problem.. because you're not looking at the screen, you are looking at what goes on in the machine..

You don't need a console with a lot of buttons.. a standard keyboard allows you to operate the machine, jogging is done with the arrow keys and PgUp and PgDn for the Z-axis.
I operated my lathe with a touchscreen and a keyboard.. works great. i might even put a touchscreen in the CNC mill
the Console i built with the Heidenhain panel is great if you program at the machine a lot.. that is what i am used to do.. i worked with a Heidenhain control most of my professional life, and my console mimmicks a lot of the functoins of the Heidenhain control.. that's why i built it.. if i write a program at the machine, i start with a toolcall. that's just one buttonpress.. the button "Tool Call" on the panel inserts "M6 T " into my editor, and i only have to key in the toolnumber and hit enter.. G01 is inserted by the grey "L" key, L is Heidenhain's for Linear interpolation..
i've put snippets of code for If/then and While routines, as well as Subroutines and Gosub Command under other buttons.. works like a charm.. but that is mainly because i'm used to program at the machine..

a Lot of hobby machinists aren't even capable of writing plain G-Code

[louieatienza]

First of all, thanks for pointing out that EdingCNC performs better than Mach.. i never ran Mach on my machine, because i couldn't even figure out how to operate it..

if the pinout was compatible with Gecko's 540 it would not be compatible with other drives.. and if you buy some cable and some connectors, you can make your own cable in lets say 15 minutes time.. ( i had to solder a 25 lead cable to connectors for my Heidi keyboard!. half an hour maybe?.. furthermore, i use the CPU 5B, which doesn't have a 25 Pin connector.. all is done with box headers.. and my supplier ( DamenCNC) has connector prints that connect to Leadshine drivers, and can be hooked up tu the CPU board with flatcable..

I've looked at the idea of a second touchscreen... there's one problem.. a touchscreen lacks tactile feedback.. you don't feel the buttons, which means you have to look at the screen while touching buttons..

For changing modes, not a problem, for jogging a machine.. BIG problem.. because you're not looking at the screen, you are looking at what goes on in the machine..

You don't need a console with a lot of buttons.. a standard keyboard allows you to operate the machine, jogging is done with the arrow keys and PgUp and PgDn for the Z-axis.
I operated my lathe with a touchscreen and a keyboard.. works great. i might even put a touchscreen in the CNC mill
the Console i built with the Heidenhain panel is great if you program at the machine a lot.. that is what i am used to do.. i worked with a Heidenhain control most of my professional life, and my console mimmicks a lot of the functoins of the Heidenhain control.. that's why i built it.. if i write a program at the machine, i start with a toolcall. that's just one buttonpress.. the button "Tool Call" on the panel inserts "M6 T " into my editor, and i only have to key in the toolnumber and hit enter.. G01 is inserted by the grey "L" key, L is Heidenhain's for Linear interpolation..
i've put snippets of code for If/then and While routines, as well as Subroutines and Gosub Command under other buttons.. works like a charm.. but that is mainly because i'm used to program at the machine..

a Lot of hobby machinists aren't even capable of writing plain G-Code

Sure I could make cables... but I'd rather be making parts! I only suggested this as a plug and play way ro upgrade from a Mach3 system. It's no big deal, the main thing being step and direction pins swapped. Or maybe DamenCNC or someone can make a crossover board or box.

I don't want to confuse things, Mach3 is very capable and has a huge installed base both hobby and commercial. Despite it's shortcomings. And once set up, it works. Also there's a lot of 3rd party support and products. But it is ling in the tooth. Haven't tried Mach4 yet but looks promising.

I started hand coding g code for my machine simply because I couldn't buy CAM software. But once I did I decided I'd rather make parts than programs. I don't make the most complicated parts, but enough that it exceeds my skill and patience to hand code.

[Azalin]

Nice machine and build thread.

[arie kabaalstra]

Thanks,

at the Last week it has been milling it's ass of.. made a prototype Titanium Dive watch case for another watch company..

[Tkamsker]

Cool

Gesendet von meinem SM-G800F mit Tapatalk

[arie kabaalstra]

Attachment 284252

Attachment 284254

Enough Ranting and Raving about CNC controls.. this is what i've been doing lately,.,made 52 of these.. Grade 5 Titanium... all sold within one week..

[hesham morsy]

:wave::banana::wee::cheers:
Panerai GPF 2/56 Big Egiziano @ Christie's - Watch Freeks

[KennyPowers]

Arie, you machine looks fantastic. I cannot express how much I like it. Can you post some more photos of if please? The whole setup, electronic cabinet etc.

Thank you.

[arie kabaalstra]

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertic...-forum-28.html

it's all here...