[phomann]

All will cometh in time.

See, it's better to get rid of thousands upon thousands over there so there is no risk of killing another 3k of our citizens over here.

And I though that the 3000+ Afgan POWs who died, many in overcrowded shipping containers at a POW camp shortly after the invasion would have been enough.


Obviousy it was not.


Peter.

[phomann]

And I though that the 3000+ Afgan POWs who died, many in overcrowded shipping containers at a POW camp shortly after the invasion would have been enough.


Obviousy it was not.


Peter.

In case your unaware. http://www.democracynow.org/afghanfilm.shtml

Peter.

[Switcher]

Really, I could care less about this post, & think this cat. Should be Removed from www.cnczone.com.

I come here to talk (cnc) shop, Not listen to the same crap that is already on TV!


.

[alexccmeister]

Three topics to avoid, SEX, POLITICS and RELIGION in every situations. Well, maybe the first one we can give an exception.

[alexccmeister]

So, with the situation on global warming that we are in, religion won't count for S#*T if we don't try to stop it. Ask the Pope or the Imam to save us from the heat wave or ice age thats going to happen. You believe they would?

But then again, at the rate at which religion is creating such a rift between man, (of course with the help of some terrorists) I think it will kill us all off faster than an ice age or a heat wave would.

I just have one thing to say though. I am glad I am not a part of the religions that have been in the news and have any association with terrorism.

How do I explain to my children that religions that have supposedly one ultimate being that controls all in this world can create such a havoc and suffering. I really wouldn't know how to.

[cncadmin]

Please keep this discussion civil PLEASE! If not the offending partie(s) will be BANNED, I will become the Donald Trump of CNCzone, with the hand pump as I ban you.

[Rekd]

This is the tail end of an article titled
Roots and Nature of Terrorism Against Civilization

The aim of the terrorists in Iraq is to prevent the democratic transformation of society. The objective of the neighboring Arab governments, with the notable exception of Iran, is to protect their countries from possible negative consequences of the developments in Iraq. Iran alone is interested in prolonging the American military presence. Seemingly, this policy contradicts the Iranian leadership’s utter rejection of a secular and democratic Iraq. However, from Iranian perspective, it serves the country’s interests. Thus, Iran pursues a three-pronged foreign policy. It supports terrorism inside Iraq. It also attempts to control the Iraqi Shi’its politically and financially. Finally, Iran maintains pressure on Iraq’s neighbors through other terrorist organizations outside Iraq.

And herein lies an opportunity for American diplomacy. All affected Arab countries are interested in peace and stability in the region. Iran’s actions indicate that its policy is detrimental to both. Moreover, Iran’s military buildup, especially its aggressive pursuit of nuclear weapons, is a threat to their existence. Syria is humiliated and isolated. The reaction of the Lebanese people to the murder of Rafiq Hariri was a total shock to the generals and old guard politicians in Damascus. They see democracy gaining the upper hand in Lebanon and Iraq. They don’t like these developments. Internationally, they feel isolated. Domestically, they are concerned about their future. Cracks within the unified elite are inevitable. Like Libya before, Syria is ready to abandon its long standing anti-Americanism and join the West.

Again, Islam is not the enemy. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are not the enemy. Arab governments are not the enemy. The real enemies of civilization are those terrorists who represent the worst of European thinking, Socialism and Fascism, and their embittered soul-mates in the West.

The protection of Western civilization should be our most important objective. The war will continue, soldiers and diplomats will have full employment. Yet the division over Iraq must not result in a festering split between the United States and Europe. The terrorists of the twenty first century and the governments in the Middle East and South East Asia do not really have much in common. The latter know that they must modernize and reform. The terrorists’ goal to eliminate the West does not leave room for any meaningful compromise with the Muslim majority. Theoretically, the terrorists could make common cause with the disgruntled Left in the West. But they are no match for the military, economic and moral superiority of the West. At the end, the forces of freedom and democracy will win because they represent a positive future. And terrorists will lose because negativism and nihilism never made people content and happy.

Highlights by me.

[ynneb]

I have no problem with any of that Matt.
My problem is the torture of people, and the illegal invasion of countries.
Napoleon once said " There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit. "

People may be suppressed for a while, but unless you change their mindset they will always eventually rise again.

I question the "Spirit of our leaders who say things like this " There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. "
Donald Rumsfeld
These are the people who have led us into such combat. I believe there are more diplomatic methods that could achive the desired results a lot more eficiently and with less blood shed.

The current methods of force, and torture are not the answer.

[phomann]

Please keep this discussion civil PLEASE! If not the offending partie(s) will be BANNED, I will become the Donald Trump of CNCzone, with the hand pump as I ban you.

Hi Paul,

To me this discussion has been a civil one. Can you explain who, and what part of the discussion is offensive? I'm happy for you to do it via PM if you wish.

I really don't understand.

Cheers,

Peter.

[One of Many]

Benny,

I find it a bit ironic you cringe at reports of interrogation methods you call torture on terrorist/insurgent/thugs, many of which were actively engaged or connected to plots of mass death. Then you quote one of the most ruthless men of war history that created so much death and destruction in a 17 year span, it is mind boggling. Napoleon didn't need to touture for any information. The policy was anyone left standing was mowed down. There is a fairly good chance you are bound to get all the needles if you destroy the whole farm. Eventually that caught up to him.

He makes Sadam look passive, Hitler look lame and America look like it was tamed by angry feminist mobs.


Makes me wonder how he would handle the current state of world affairs. And if would you still be proud enough to quote him if he did it in his usual style.

Here is another of his quotes.

"There is no place in a fanatic's head where reason can enter."


DC

[ynneb]

Not ironic at all. The point is, ( and it was probably not obvious ) is that even a well known leader in war, had to concede that the sword was not as strong as the spirit.

[dertsap]

world history ( man) has been dictated and created thru war and violence ,the power rise and fall of nations has been through defeat ,
there has always been and always will be an enemy , its called human nature with the thirst for greed , power , and ego tripping

the freaks at the present time work on fear , the problem is the nations that are fighting them kill them or take them as pow's and treat them well,
for them what fear do they have to worry about , they die and get 50 virgins or the get caught then thrown in jail and forced to eat pizza ,real tough ,
slow painfull deaths may be a thing to fear for them , being dragged to the street and stoned to death by the people they spit on in their own homeland ,may be something to concider .
how do we deal with this and hold our moral beliefs , or do we put our morals aside and fight to win

[eng8248]

I wasn't arguing for or against the war on terror and keeping the peace. Just the excuses and half-ass tactics used to employ it. I for one have served and would serve again if it makes a difference. As Patton said, "Why die for your country when you can make the sons-of-*****es die for theirs?" I understand the sacrifice the armed forces make. I appreciate it every single day I draw breath as I know freedom isn't free. I just want more for my "blood money" than cheap gas and a "warm fuzzy" for combating terrorism. If my brothers-in-arms must die, make the enemy suffer for every death caused. When every Islamic extremist capable of making babies is dead, the problem will cease. Until that day, we are fighting a war that cannot be won. Hard line tactics in a hard line scenario. It's not getting any softer, we are. We don't have to torture or rape and pillage. We just need to kill, kill, kill until there aren't any more extremist "volunteers" to kill. When we turn the arid desert into fertile ground from the millions of corpses and gallons of blood they shed, we will have stopped the export of their brand of terror. If that also means killing the women and children of the "old guard" then so be it. A 12 year old boy with an AK47 is just as lethal as a 21 year old man. As long as they have the means to propogate their brand of evil, they will.

That's one of the most disgusting uncivilized cruel statements I have heard "this week"...in fact wait, that might be the second most...given that I came by this video the other day...

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17344.htm

Hi Paul,

To me this discussion has been a civil one. Can you explain who, and what part of the discussion is offensive? I'm happy for you to do it via PM if you wish.

I really don't understand.

Cheers,

Peter.

Yes, Peter, if promoting, justifying, and actually encouraging murder in that fancy manner is actually "a civil discussion" for ya, then I have no idea what the heck kinda civilization you are bragging about! ... Pathetic!

Take a look at that video, which does not describe even a fraction of what actually goes on in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, and the list goes on and on...a whole damn long list of cruel scenarios, the heros of which are either the American troops or those sponsored and supported by the American government (as is the case with the Israeli forces)!

And, to all those who actually suggested that killing "those Muslims" is the solution, hey dudes, there are more than 1.6 billion Muslims in this world...so your "billiant" solution of just "kill, kill, kill,...", as somebody stated, WILL NOT WORK...so, you better take a deep breath for a min, put your civilized mask on for another, and think of trying to understand and educate yourself about those people... because trust me, there are a whole damn lot of those around; all over the place...and their number is growing tremendously, particularly in the states...so you will have to live with them, some way or another, and you will have to try to face those stereotypes you have, instead of taking the easy way to do nothing but rant about them.

Oh, and fizzissist, let me add that what I refered to by "educating yourselves about Islam and Muslims" does NOT mean to just google a couple versus of the Quran and paste them, regardless of their original context. If I were to do the same thing with the bible or any narrative-style book, it will be but a joke! So, let's just not even go there!

[Rekd]

My problem is the torture of people, and the illegal invasion of countries.

Benny, tell me which country we invaded illegally, and who we tortured. (By torture, I mean physically harming, like cutting off fingers, bamboo shoots, etc, not water-boarding and loud music and sleep deprivation.) You're making a lot of broad, unsubstantiated statements without anything to back it up. We are at war, and the US policy is first and foremost the protection and safety of innocent life. We go out of our way to do that, often to the extent that our own boys are getting shot trying to make sure they're not killing innocents. A friend of mine that's been in Iraq 3 times (and got a Purple Heart from his first tour there) told me there are 7 steps our boys must take before they can engage the enemy.

Now, consider we've been at war for 4 years now. Then look at the casualty rates. Then look at any other war that lasted that long and tell me how the numbers add up. (FYI, as you'll read below, the VAST majority of Iraqi deaths are at the hands of other Muslims, not the American forces)

It's really pathetic that the media does not tell the whole story because they're afraid it will bring down their ratings. It's sad that so many people just go on believing it and passing judgment without knowing the facts.

That's one of the most disgusting uncivilized cruel statements I have heard "this week"...in fact wait, that might be the second most...given that I came by this video the other day...

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17344.htm




Yes, Peter, if promoting, justifying, and actually encouraging murder in that fancy manner is actually "a civil discussion" for ya, then I have no idea what the heck kinda civilization you are bragging about! ... Pathetic!

Take a look at that video, which does not describe even a fraction of what actually goes on in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, and the list goes on and on...a whole damn long list of cruel scenarios, the heros of which are either the American troops or those sponsored and supported by the American government (as is the case with the Israeli forces)!

And, to all those who actually suggested that killing "those Muslims" is the solution, hey dudes, there are more than 1.6 billion Muslims in this world...so your "billiant" solution of just "kill, kill, kill,...", as somebody stated, WILL NOT WORK...so, you better take a deep breath for a min, put your civilized mask on for another, and think of trying to understand and educate yourself about those people... because trust me, there are a whole damn lot of those around; all over the place...and their number is growing tremendously, particularly in the states...so you will have to live with them, some way or another, and you will have to try to face those stereotypes you have, instead of taking the easy way to do nothing but rant about them.

Oh, and fizzissist, let me add that what I refered to by "educating yourselves about Islam and Muslims" does NOT mean to just google a couple versus of the Quran and paste them, regardless of their original context. If I were to do the same thing with the bible or any narrative-style book, it will be but a joke! So, let's just not even go there!

Another outburst like that will likely result in a ban. (Yes, I will ban you before I let your rude comments and personal attacks get this thread closed. )

Now back to the show.

We're talking about RADICAL Muslims. Not the 1.5 billion moderates. If you fail to make that distinction, then you are simply making the broad assessment that ALL Muslims are terrorists. I find that highly doubtful and highly offensive. Especially when you title your response with

Oh, please, I can't stand ignorance, and blind grouping of people!

Most of the violence in Iraq and other ME countries is Muslim vs Muslim. Muslims killing themselves to kill other Muslims. Innocent Muslims. Women and children Muslims. And if they can kill a few Americans at the same time, so much the better in their eyes.

I have been studying the Quran for several months now and there is a lot of the "convert or die or pay" methodology in it. If it is, in fact, to be taken word for word, then it's no wonder there is a large number of RADICALS that are taking it to the extreme.

[One of Many]

Looking for an independent unbiased news source?

You call that an unbiased news source? That is the worst form of bias I have seen next to a KKK site!

DC

[eng8248]

Rekd, please, tell me your just kidding...I can't believe you're in this world, yet you are wondering about "the torture that the American government enjoined in".

What do you call this?

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle11944.htm ---short version on Abu Ghraib

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17242.htm --- longer version on Abu Ghraib

or this

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle13597.htm --- Guantanamo Bay Style of Torture

It's a long list, trust me!

And, PLEASE, don't tell me those Americans involved were just "bad apples", because that excuse is getting old, AND because there's happening to be a whole lot of such incidents...and if a tree has so many damn bad apples, then I think we should stop blaming the apples and instead look at the tree and the roots, because there's definitely something going severly wrong in there.

And, I have no clue what and what not you classify as "torture", according to your weird list earlier, but trust me, the CIA, and the troops, are trained and do know the most suitable torture style for each victim. Here's an axample for ya...if we look at Abu Ghraib, the vast majority of the ugly torture was sexual, directed at both the male and the female Muslim detainees. And, nope that's not a coincidence, because they know that they have a kinda conservative culture, and thus that's what will affect them physically and more importantly, PSYCHOLOGICALLY the most. The same vicious game is that in Guantanamo Bay, although all we have about the conditions in Guantanamo are based on the stories of those few British detainees that were released. And I have no reason to not believe them, because if the American government is prohibiting any media personnel or pictures to be taken in there, then that obvioiusly proves nothing but the fact that there's a whole lot of horrible things going on in there that the American government doesn't want the world to see, and more importantly, its own tax-payers!

So, stop talking about different kinds of torture, as if it matters...all what matters is the fact that those are HUMANS, just like you, me, and everyone is...dehumanizing "others" is not getting us anywhere!

You also mentioned that you've been studying the quran, I've been doing that as well, simultaneously with the Bible, and that's why I know very well that the way you cite from it is very crucial to the meaning. The same can be said about the bible, but since the bible does not address military-related aspects that comprehensively, it's not that obvious to some. I'd like, however, to see your references from the Quran, if you wanna say that it's Islam and the Quran that are responsible for this!

And, I've just seen the illegal-invading-of-countries comment, I don't have time to comment on that one right now...maybe some other time, although for God's sake, it's too obvious!

And, One of Many...I call that an unbiased source because it allows me to see the OTHER side of the story, after watching CNN or FOX. From my experience with the media, I don't trust any one-source..I find it to be worth it to actually take the time and explore different sources which usually gives me a sense of truth and reality somewhere in between. There's always something going behind the scenes, yet still, we should take the time to try to get to what's really going on, instead of sitting here judging and dehumanizing of people, which is not gonna solve anything at all!

[fizzissist]

Oh, and fizzissist, let me add that what I refered to by "educating yourselves about Islam and Muslims" does NOT mean to just google a couple versus of the Quran and paste them, regardless of their original context. If I were to do the same thing with the bible or any narrative-style book, it will be but a joke! So, let's just not even go there!

Uh, how 'bout we go there.

I did not "..google a couple of versus of the Quran and paste them...", I've read a lot of it, the interpretations are pretty clear, even to the casual observer, and what I put up is in context. I couldn't care less what you choose to do with any other book. We're talking about a huge cross section of people who have chosen to interpret the verses EXACTLY as I did.

Difference being, they have elected to practice it. So, we'll just have to assume by your defending them, you're one of them?

[Geof]

"There is no place in a fanatic's head where reason can enter."

So true; and it does not matter whether the fanatic is one who kills and maims indiscriminantly for some misguided religio-political reason or whether the fanatic is just supporting his government in misguided and uncivilized behaviour. A fanatic is a person with a mind closed around their own beliefs and not open to rational discussion.

Don't meally mouth around, the US government is supporting torture; waterboarding, sleep deprivation and similiar treatment are torture; they all exist on a continuum. There are two 'justifications' that seem to be put forth excusing this behaviour; one is that they do not fall into the legal definition of torture the other is that this type of activity is okay because the bad guys are soooo bad it is okay for the good guys to be just a little bit bad.

Balderdash!! Torture is wrong, torture was wrong when practised during the Inquisition, torture was wrong when practised by the Waffen SS in the Second World War, torture was wrong when practised by the North Korean authorities in the Korean War, torture was wrong when practised by the North Vietnamese authorities in the Vietnam War. Torture always has been wrong. Torture always will be wrong.

Torture is the imposition of mental or physical suffering with the intent of changing the victim's beliefs or behaviour. In the case of torture the intent is as important as the act.

Torture doesn't work, if your definition of 'work' is the extraction of reliable information. Anyone willl break under torture and, if magazine articles I have read are to be believed, this reality is included in the training of some operatives who are taught to tell as much as possible; true, false, doesn't matter, mix the wheat with the chaff to confuse your interrogator.

I find it both disgusting and terrifying that there seems to be such widespread and vehement support for torture in the US. The terrifying comes about because here we have the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world unable to recognize the wrongness of its actions. This is a country that holds itself up as an example of civilized democratic behaviour under the rule of law; it stamps "In God We Trust" on its coinage. What god; the Old Testament version who allowed an old man who claimed insult to call bears from the woods to rend the young people allegedly guilty of the insult, or the New Testament version who allowed his Son to be crucified and atone for the sins of Humanity. Personally I believe in neither but I do believe that torture is not compatible with the behaviour and lifestyle espoused by the Son, whoever that individual may have been.

[Rekd]

eng, Do you think the terrorists are on the moral high ground compared to Western civilization? (a simple yes or no will suffice)

For the record, I am not and have not studied the Bible as I have the Quran, so I am not going to try to compare the two. Suffice it to say, if I were to take the Quran literally, which is how you are supposed to take it because it's not allowed to be "interpreted", then I would deduce that if you are not a Muslim practicing Islam, you are to be converted (BY FORCE if necessary) or killed, or you are to pay a "tax" while losing many (most) of the rights afforded true Islamics.

As for torture, there are levels I'm willing to accept. That stops at physical deformations. (Cutting, burning, breaking etc). If being "a little bad" means saving lives, I'm all for it. You're not going to successfully fight hatred with love. Not in the case of the radicals we're fighting.

[massajamesb]

I now have a brother-in-law who lived in that area of the world. He moved here for a number of reasons, but I was surprised to find out what all of them were. I spoke with him the last few weeks on the situation in Iraq, the state of the Muslim world, the current view of America and/or war from a modern Muslim standpoint.I also spoke with a large number of family/friends of his that still live there.
I found that believing all of the "fair and balanced" news reports, no matter where they come from, still leave a lot to be desired. This is not a poke at anyone, (so don't start flaming me). There are always at least two sides to the story. Unfortunately, either there exists a lot of political bias in the news media, or the news simply attempts to push people by emotion and reaction, whichever makes money. I imagine a little of both, sometimes.

Out of this 1.6 billion Muslims, how many live in the U.S., the evil, vile, West? I believe a large number of them do,(not the majority, not even close, but still a respectable number) and are quite satisfied at their choice. Religious intolerance in the Arabic countries of the world is beyond comprehension. Muslims in America are left to worship as they see fit.
According to my BIL, there are a large number of Muslims in that region of the world (as much as 75-80 percent!) who would jump at the chance to live in America, or have a democracy, etc.
To the majority of Muslims in the world, America is seen as a land of peace and opportunity (I am guessing they have never been in Harlem or downtown Dallas, etc.*shudder*) BUT- at the same time, we are seen as bullies. We push our way around international laws, we have had instances of torture (that got way overplayed in the news), we posess nuclear weapons and will not allow other countries to develop nuclear power (for reasons good and bad, they agree), etc.
Even though we are viewed as bullies, and oil hungry, SUV driving, cell phone and credit card waving, ignorant sloths by some, there are literally MILLIONS of followers of Islam who would love to be here in the States, in a democratic country, etc.
Take a poll of the number of people leaving the countries that harbor terrorists (or that have terrorists flocking to them), versus the numbers you see on the news of people flocking to there to train in terrorist camps, and I think you will find that a large number of Muslims in that area are VERY intolerant of that closed minded thinking of the insurgents and terrorists. They simply want nothing to do with them, and are leaving for bluer skies.

The BIL and I spoke at great lengths about the Quran, and the intended meanings of the passages contained therein. Turns out that they are "subject to interpretation" as lead by the Imam at the mosque, or by how you feel Allah (or Muhammed, even) leads you to view them. This leads to controversy, as every sect of Islam has a different view on what the Quran says/means. At the far end of the struggle, you have the insurgents, who take the Quran, and twist it to fit their religious ideals and beliefs, and try to use religion to serve them. Thankfully, this faction is an embarrasment to all other sects of Islam, and they are also (thankfully) in the minority.
You can argue with any of the above that you like, but it comes from the BIL and at least a dozen other minds from that area of the world, who are completely immersed in it. This is not a report courtesy of Fox news.

Now, what are we doing in Iraq? We are protecting our oil interests, we are spreading "democracy" (at least as an idea), we are killing terrorists, etc.
Oil interests? Never! Not a Texan, you say. I retort, yes. I am a Texan, and I can see it happening.
Democracy, as it stands as an idea, would be great to spread in that region, if you could just get them to stop killing each other over their religion. The problem is that no one there wants to make a separation of religion and state.
It is always intertwined.
A lot of those killed are not terrorists, you say? Why are they shooting American troops? Why are they enacting acts of cowardice by sending their 10 year old child into public strapped with a bomb? If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and shoots back, then guess what?
I agree, personally with SOME of what we are doing there. I am on the fence, moreover. I don't agree with what we are doing all the way. I think that removing Sadaam from power could have been done differently, or with more tact.
I also think we have botched a number of operations and cost thousands of lives from ALL countries involved, simply to satiate the "humanitarian" mindset and be politically correct. Applying yourself to the rules of engagement, and observing the Geneva convention (although that would be picking and choosing, wouldn't it? ) when it comes to war is of course acceptable, but to force valuable information from someone that could save thousands of our sons,daughters, brothers, and sisters, both here and abroad, is worth it. Sign me up. For those who disagree with torturing or other acts of "inhumanity", I have a video of a gentleman named Daniel Pearl I would like to show you. This is how they treat their prisoners. I would like to put you in a similar situation, in the middle of a war, and see how PC you can stay.
The events at Abu Ghraib were a tragedy. Some of the goings-on at Guantanamo are despicable. I don't approve of such behaviour, as it is unbecoming of officers, and any of us as a nation.
I do, however, completely understand the need to extract information in a wartime setting. To another American I would ask, if you could save the victims of 9/11 with a few simple actions, would you? How about the Madrid train bombings? How about the daily tragedies in the Holy Land?
I believe there is waaaayyyy too much criticism of what we are doing over there, versus support of our family that are supporting our right to bicker like this, and enable a whole other country to argue the same way, just without any bombing and small arms fire.

I might add that I know a variety of American Muslims, who are quite offended by the actions of the terrorists. They all agree that "This is specifically what Islam is NOT about. It is a religion of peace, but there are those who would always misinterpret anything, if it serves them or their ideals".

Flame me, chastise me, etc. I don't care. Everyone else posts their opinion, now I have posted mine, as well as the opinions of a few people who have been living in that hell.
After all, when it comes to my opinion and what I think, what am I but a Monday morning quarterback? If I were to run this war, I would have botched it WAAAYYY worse than we are currently.
"never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"