[Dylwad]

Hi, I GOOGLED Kickstart.com and it came up with a website description for forming groups to collect funds to do projects.......???

Are you promoting Kickstart.com on the forum?.......that is spam and will be reported.

This thread is about bankrolling a hobby mill.....where does a CNC lathe come into the picture?

Your comments please in case there is some misinterpretation, as you are far off topic.
Ian.

The thread is how do you bank roll a hobby mill, one way is to come up with an idea you want to make, put that idea on kickstarter, get funding for the mill and produce the parts. he wasn't spamming.

Sent from tapatalk

[handlewanker]

Well, it appeared so.

This thread is about finding means to get funds to purchase a "hobby mill" per se.

I could not imagine getting a group of people together to supply funds so that you could buy yourself a hobby mill......with their resources for your hobby that produces no tangible income.

A commercial enterprise, yes, where you attract funding to launch a business that needs venture capitol to "kickstart" the business in to being.

The fund suppliers (shareholders) get a dividend from the proceeds of the sales the business produces.

This is far removed from finding out how to find ways for a hobby mill purchase, which is purely for a personal acquisition, probably never to make a penny in it's entire existence.

It would be cheaper to borrow money from a bank etc and pay 3 or 4% interest (whatever the rate) over 2 or 3 years, where at the end of it you own the mill and the bank gets it's money back with interest and you don't continue to pay most of your net profits to the share holders forever more.

Nobody makes enough money from a hobby mill to pay back people who expect a return on investment.

By hobby mill, I would have to say $5,000 bottom line start up just for machinery, + $5,000 for tools and materials, + $5,000 for emergency acquisitions etc.....making approx. $15,000 for a cheque in the bank to just get started before you start to make money to pay for the mill, but also for the rest of the borrowing.

This now is not a hobby mill, but a business venture to pay for a hobby mill???

If you borrowed the $15,000 from a bank that would be some ambitious hobby mill.

I think a hobby mill would be something like an SX3 etc converted to CNC to do hobby work, and not remotely capable of making parts to pay back the outlay.

Perhaps some enlightenment is needed as to the viability of the Kickstart.com aspect.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

The thread is how do you bank roll a hobby mill, one way is to come up with an idea you want to make, put that idea on kickstarter, get funding for the mill and produce the parts. he wasn't spamming.

Sent from tapatalk

Hi, This appears to be the chicken and the egg scenario.

You have to have the mill to make the parts to buy the mill.

It's simpler and less costly to borrow the money and buy the mill and pay back just what you owe.....Mums and Dads usually step in in this case like buying a car etc, and don't charge interest.

If banks won't lend you the money because of bad credit rating, no job prospects, too many outgoings etc...........
Ian.

[Dylwad]

I see your point 100% and pretty much agree with you, I don't think Bam meant it as spam though, just sharing something he had done to get some liquid to go about a venture.

If the kickstarter pays for the machine in the end, it's still a hobby machine unless you build a business around it after the fact.

Im not 100%schooled on the kickstarter process, but it's very easy to start a business in most states. Some farmers in MN didn't show a profit for a number of years and the irs made them start filing their farm as a hobby....

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[handlewanker]

Hi, I think any time a third party (silent partner) is in the wings money goes out of the door.

Big business would not hesitate to involve third parties as they factor this in when the financial goal is anticipated, but they also have to sustain the outgoings to the third party from profits.

Down at our level it's more practical to go cap in hand and borrow from Mum Or Dad's equity in the family home, maybe big brother too.....LOL.

Once the wheels start turning the potential to make a buck or two becomes irresistible, and then you realise the shortcomings of your "investment", which originally was only for hobby use.

In that case I think the thinking must be extremely focused on hobby or potential dollar earner......the division in the road is very specific at the outlay for the machinery you end up with.

If it does become commercial, then as long as you started out with some quality tooling, at least you can cut your losses without too many tears and upgrade with venture capitol to make some dough.

This is like buying an SX3, converting to CNC and due to tolerances, production load and QC upgrade to a Tormach 1100, selling the SX3 for less than your "investment" but going forward nevertheless.

The short answer is if you can't get the money from employment or Mum and Dad, the only other avenue is to trade your treasure to your friends with a buy back promise if they will do it.......a series 4 $900 Ipad will get you at least $400 on EBAY, but it's gone for good.
Ian.

[ger21]

I believe that he's recommending Kickstarter as a method of raising the money for the mill.

[BAMCNC.COM]

Wow... I believe Tormach is a Hobby Mill, yes? Ok, well I wanted one, so I created parts on my Taig CNC Mill (which was very cheap in the scheme of things, and would be a good route to get started) and put them on kickstarter and almost overnight had a Tormach with Everything. More or less its the best idea to get money for a hobby mill in this thread. There are a couple people on this forum who it has also changed their life, maybe you should do some research before you tell me I'm a spammer. Kickatarter in no way means you need a business.

[handlewanker]

Hi Bam, perhaps I read the whole lot wrong, but when I did it said that the purpose would be to interest a bunch of people to contribute funds to a project to make money, IE they expect to get a return on their money, they are money lenders per se.

That is far removed from interesting a bunch of people to advance funds for a hobby mill in the hope that it will be used to make some parts that would sell and make everyone some money.

According to the Google info, Kickstart is an enterprise function whereby people contribute money for a project purely to make money.

They do not collect money as a group and give/lend it to someone to buy a hobby mill so that that someone can make parts to pay back the money etc........that is profit sharing and you don't make money to share profits when all you want is a hobby mill.

As I read the Google info, you were promoting the contributing of money by a group whose purpose is to make money from the lending.

However, if the group are kind hearted people who collectively contribute money that they can afford to release for no gain but purely to enable someone who needs a hand out to buy a mill, make some parts and pay the money back......that is quite a different matter.

Correct me if I am wrong and the group are philanthropists and not enterprise orientated for profit.

Anyway, perhaps it is a good idea, if it does mean a mill comes out of it....nothing ventured nothing gained, I'll say no more.
Ian.

[BAMCNC.COM]

I didn't understand most of what you said, I'll dumb it down for us uneducated people.

-Think up an idea

-Have prototype made, someone else can do that for you

-Put your prototype on Kickstarter, make your Goal amount be the cost of the mill and add in any costs to make the parts and shipping. Make your Rewards be anything from an email saying thank you, to sending them a part (in my case keychains)

-Now, if your goal is 15,000$, and you get to 14,999$, then its a wash, nothing happens, nobody is out any money, simply try again with a lower goal if you can swing it.

-If you hit your goal and beyond then you get 90% of whatever your project reached, with that 90% you fullfill your rewards to your backers and that's it, the rest of the money is yours to continue building your shop.

Sound to good to be true?

Want proof its no joke?

Go to Kickstarter.com, click in the search box and type "Bottle Grenade" or "wtf" Those are my projects.


I will gladly help anyone here to start a project, if they need a prototype made, or help with a Kickstarter page.


http://www.tormach.com/Brad-Martin.html

Now have I changed anyone's mind?

[handlewanker]

Hi.....I must be dumber than most as I still can't see the starting point.

I know it works as I read the article you posted on the Brad Martin story.

The sole object is to get a hobby mill for some hobby projects, but by all account you need to think up an idea to make to sell in production quantities to cover the cost of the outlay, mill, tools and materials etc.

Do you get a cheque up front to buy the mill and tools to make the production run to sell and hope the part does sell and make the anticipated money?

What if it doesn't sell.....you can spend hours making something as a prototype that in a production mode takes 10 minutes.....prototypes are a lot different to a production item....ask me how I know etc....BTDT.

The part may have to be sold for $1 to be competitive, but if it takes 10 minutes to make it.......you'll go broke trying to sell it for a dollar when your sales net you $6 an hour.

So now you have a mill, (which you only wanted in the first place) funded by kickstarter.com a production orientated workshop/garage and several thousand parts that are not selling........do you now have to reimburse them for the outlay that did not make money?

OK, so you made a mistake and should have anticipated that you need to make a million of the parts with high speed machinery just to compete with the Chinese who sell a similar part for 10 cents etc.

Am I wrong in thinking that Kickstart.com is purely to give people who want to get into business a start-up and a doorway into business as opposed to just a personal occupation for occasional and random hobbying?

The thread is "How do you bankrole a hobby mill" which is a lot different to having to go into business just to get a hobby mill.

By a hobby mill, the interpretation would have to be something like an SX3 which gets converted possibly to CNC, costing initially $1,700, but by no stretch of the imagination could you use it to seriously go into business......a prototype maybe, but for production something else is required.
Ian.

[rlockwood]

Hi.....I must be dumber than most as I still can't see the starting point.

I know it works as I read the article you posted on the Brad Martin story.

The sole object is to get a hobby mill for some hobby projects, but by all account you need to think up an idea to make to sell in production quantities to cover the cost of the outlay, mill, tools and materials etc.

Do you get a cheque up front to buy the mill and tools to make the production run to sell and hope the part does sell and make the anticipated money?

What if it doesn't sell.....you can spend hours making something as a prototype that in a production mode takes 10 minutes.....prototypes are a lot different to a production item....ask me how I know etc....BTDT.

The part may have to be sold for $1 to be competitive, but if it takes 10 minutes to make it.......you'll go broke trying to sell it for a dollar when your sales net you $6 an hour.

So now you have a mill, (which you only wanted in the first place) funded by kickstarter.com a production orientated workshop/garage and several thousand parts that are not selling........do you now have to reimburse them for the outlay that did not make money?

OK, so you made a mistake and should have anticipated that you need to make a million of the parts with high speed machinery just to compete with the Chinese who sell a similar part for 10 cents etc.

Am I wrong in thinking that Kickstart.com is purely to give people who want to get into business a start-up and a doorway into business as opposed to just a personal occupation for occasional and random hobbying?

The thread is "How do you bankrole a hobby mill" which is a lot different to having to go into business just to get a hobby mill.

By a hobby mill, the interpretation would have to be something like an SX3 which gets converted possibly to CNC, costing initially $1,700, but by no stretch of the imagination could you use it to seriously go into business......a prototype maybe, but for production something else is required.
Ian.

You clearly missed how kickstarter works.. Look into it a couple more times..

Brad, stop telling everyone how it works, I don't want that much competition!

and to take what brad is saying a few steps further.. if he had come to me with either of his initial ideas (bottle grenade or WTF) and needed prototypes made, he would've had a dozen (or possibly more) in his hand a week later for under $200, easily.

That $200 would've paid for everything needed to create his kickstarter project, and fund the purchase of his mill. Clearly, he wasnt JUST funding a hobby mill, but he couldve easily stopped making anything for anyone else following his first one and walked off with a paid for tormach.

[handlewanker]

You clearly missed how kickstarter works.. Look into it a couple more times..

Brad, stop telling everyone how it works, I don't want that much competition!

and to take what brad is saying a few steps further.. if he had come to me with either of his initial ideas (bottle grenade or WTF) and needed prototypes made, he would've had a dozen (or possibly more) in his hand a week later for under $200, easily.

That $200 would've paid for everything needed to create his kickstarter project, and fund the purchase of his mill. Clearly, he wasnt JUST funding a hobby mill, but he couldve easily stopped making anything for anyone else following his first one and walked off with a paid for tormach.

"and fund the purchase of the mill"?????

As I said I must be definately dumber than anyone.......with several dozen prototypes in his hand, he now approaches Kickstart and says "I have a really cool whotsit and need $15,000 to get a hobby mill and tools and materials to make some parts......selling for $1 each".

So they advance him the money....yes?......a $15,000 cheque, no collateral, no guarantee the prototype will sell when it becomes a production item?

After R&D the prototype is radically different, due to manufacturing requirements than the prototype appeared as, but the cost has now spiralled to $10 each as opposed to the EBAY Chinese comparable part selling for $1, because you bought a hobby mill (which you only wanted in the first place), and should have bought a rotary transfer machine, costing a hundred grand that the Chinese use to make the parts for $0.50 and by the thousand very quickly.......but your market potential only runs to dozens not thousands because it is local, not even National or even International like the Chinese.

If you gave the order to the guy who made the prototypes it would get made for $200 for a batch of a dozen parts, sometime in the future.

Is it a hobby acquisition or a potential business venture we are thinking of.......if it's a hobby the bigger production mill won't suit your needs especially with all the special tooling required.

I can't see the point of a business venture when all you need is a hobby mill.

Well if it's not a business venture, you won't make the parts for the price with a hobby mill.
Ian.

[BAMCNC.COM]

Short and sweet.... You don't need the product or the mill upfront. Come up with 200$ for a prototype, put it on kickstarter for FREE, and wait until you hit your goal or don't, if you don't act like nothing happened. If you hit your goal you get that money, NOW go buy your mill and make your rewards and ship. This has nothing to do with China, or money ahead of time, no loans, nothing. You are over thinking something that is basically to good to be true and that is why your having a hard time with it. Buy whatever you want to make your rewards, why does it matter what you buy, just get your rewards to your backers and relax with your new....(insert new things you bought here) There is no "Business Venture"

[mactec54]

BAMCNC.com
rlockwood You clearly missed how kickstarter works.. Look into it a couple more times..

No he did not, Ian is not a con man so does not understand how people could fall for this

I just had to get into this, Ian is correct, people like you are ripping off the system & how Kickstarter is supposed to work, you found away around, to use the program to con people out of there moneys

Kickstarter is there to help develop a good idea & get the product to market, it is not about making a few trinkets & then stop once the trinkets have been given out, ( you are defrauding the supporters by doing this )

There has been some great products brought to market, from the Kickstarter program, but then there are people like you that had the intention to use this program to con the people to get money for things other than getting a product to market, ( it's called fraud )

So the way that you have used this program is nothing more than a scam

[BAMCNC.COM]

I think your post is a fraud, and you clearly have no clue what your talking about. Ignorance is all I can get out of your post, sorry. Do you not understand that I am Brad Martin, or....

[mactec54]

BAMCNC.com
I think your post is a fraud, and you clearly have no clue what your talking about. Ignorance is all I can get out of your post

Only a true con man would reply to my post like this

The Brad Martin product I know it well, you posts did not reflect, to the Brad Martin success story, It was how you could buy a mill with the proceeds from giving out a few trinkets & using the left over moneys to fund your hobby, this is truly a scam

[handlewanker]

Brad, by all appearances it would seem mactec54 is correct........ it seems a group of people are contributing money to enable someone to get started IN A GENUINE BUSINESS VENTURE FOR THE FUTURE, not to just acquire a Tormach mill for the short term, make a few parts and stop there, which would in my mind be like getting a street corner handout of small change because you did not want to work for it.

If someone asked me to give money to a charity to enable someone in Africa to get educated, but it really got used to enable the organisation that collected it to just keep collecting that would be fraud.

The Brad Martin story is one which I find confusing in that 2 products were made that were innovative and functional and resulted in the Tormach acquisition, apparently not going on to a business opportunity.

The last paragraph says that Brad Martin has returned to Iowa to raise a loan to set up in business.......I thought the Kickstart had already enable that to happen, or did the sum total of the effort result only in the Tormach and now he needs real money to get into business proper with the Tormach to make those products and some more?

If the Kickstart resulted only in getting the mill.....the whole purpose of that enterprise was a waste of resources.

I would not think Kickstart was a method to get funding for a one off personal purchase of a hobby anything, but more to enable someone to get funding for a genuine entry to the business market that normally would be impossible to achieve with a genuine product for the start off.....one of the reasons the title of the program is Kickstart, get you going , a pathway into the business world.

What you advocated to Eric of post #1 was to join the Kickstart program in order to get a hobby mill, by thinking of an idea purely to make a few parts, any old thing would do that could be sold, several hundred probably, hand them out to the fund raisers as a reward etc to show you actually made something with the mill and then walk away......he had no inclination to enter the business world, certainly not with a hobby mill, that would be ludicrous.

If that is what Kickstart is being used for it is a waste of effort by the subscribers, but financially profitable to the receivers and a scam by them if they do not go on to better things on the basis of the Kickstart opportunity.

I may be totally misreading this, but this is how I see it, and I will read the story once again.

There is another aspect here......Kickstart gets 5% of the total revenue subscribed, and Amazon get approx 5% also......from by all accounts millions of dollars pledged.....if that's not skimming the top I don't know what is.

An organisation with money pouring in at that rate would be only too pleased to hand it out to anyone they chose as long as they had their cut from the pile.....that is some conspiracy theory.....would make a good book or a film if the funding was available....LOL.

If Brad Martin has manipulated the system for personal gain he should be investigated for misappropriation of the fund subscribers money.
Ian.

[red triangle]

Wow! Thanks for the offer Brad. I have been following your projects for a while now. And congratulations for just "doing it". I hope to get a kickstarter project up in a few months for my microphones. I just want to make sure my production scheme is ironed out before I promise anything. I will gladly take you up on your offer!

[|eric|]

basically just to clarify its not that i cannot afford the mill its just that thinking about it i have a hard time justifying the spending .
i have an idea a few ideas about what i would make "as a hobby" ( more like thinkering) on the mill i would most likely have to make lots of parts maybe even a "toolchain" of some sort for some of the things i would like to make. (where talking 20 to 50 parts easy (probably way more) without even considering faillures errors and all that.
i am also concerned about "secrecy" i dont want my ideas to be ripped off either.

tanks for the replies some are very helpful
i guess ill just have to suck it up and bite the bullet

[red triangle]

Mactec and Handlewanker, you guys seem to be a bit confused as to what kickstarter is. The people who subscribe to projects choose the level of involvement they want. They can donate $1 and just get a simple thank you note. They can donate $50 and get a t-shirt; donate more and they can get the product that they have elected to help sponsor. There is no scam involved. I hope to have a project up in a couple of months. I have already invested over 20K of my own money into a product, but will need more so that I can get bulk purchasing prices on a few of the items I need to complete each item. I also need some electronic test software and hardware. If I meet my goal of say, $10k, I can then get those items and ship the rewards (thank you note, t-shirt, microphone, etc..) to the project subscribers. It's kind of like a pre-sale that helps out individuals or businesses realize their goals without having to go to a bank and pay interest. An additional benefit is that the producer of an item can gauge the potential interest in their product.
As to the comment about "skimming the top", that is simply capitalism, the system that we work in (and for). Have you ever met anybody who is paid exactly what they are worth (not talking about business owners or CEOs here)? If you have, that person probably didn't have a job for much longer since a successful business, or venture, has to pay an employee less than they are worth to stay in business (operational costs, overhead, profit, taxes...). Same goes for online retail and goods. Kickstarter can not function with 0 resources and therefore needs to charge a fee for it's use to compensate them for expenses.