[fizzissist]

This cuts to something I've been trying to point out as a problem ..... You can't build renewable energy with renewable energy.

Windmill power isn't going to provide enough energy to mine the ores, process the ores, mill the raw materials, build the raw components or the systems to build any of the above..transport the end products, whether windmills or solar panels to their end use locations.....and neither will solar.

We need to get over a huge energy hump if we're to implement any significant level of "renewable" energy independence. Getting over that hump will require more oil, more coal, and if we're smart, more nuclear. THEN we can be realistic with dreams of being genuinely green.

[infantry11b]

the best renewable energy is gravity. it has worked for thousands of years. moving water from higher to lower places and the fall creates energy - gravity.
water wheels use gravity as the water moves from higher to lower locations.
lets not forget dams - gravity.
so what we need to do is find a way to use it. and while it takes energy to raise a weight to use the falling energy when you let it fall, if you have excess which will disappear when the sun goes down, might as well use as much of that excess as possible.
use the excess to raise a weight, and i don't mean a 4 ton block, i mean small weights, using a pully system and let the weight fall at a slow weight and use it to turn a generator. we can use pullys to create rpm's for a generator.
but what we will be doing is complicating our lives. so instead of having a wire come into your home, you will have, one way or another, a complicated device, which you will have to maintain. the good part is you can use all the energy you can make and not ask permission, the bad part is you may only have all the energy you can make, and if you cant make enough you are stuck, unless you have that wire from the ourside.

and you have to remember, electricity is dangerous. heavy falling weights are dangerous. moving pieces of machinery are dangerous. put so it sticking a bobbypin into a light socket.

[handlewanker]

For all those who have short memories and rosy ideas that "alles sal reg kom" which translated from Afrikaans means literally...."eventually, given the very fullness of time and providing circimstances don't change for the worse, everything will come right".

There once was a man who worked at a tea packing factory, doing a mundane job like sweeping up the tea that spilt from the packing machines.
Due to health regulations the spilt tea was discarded and dumped, but being an enterprising fellow he pocketed the spillings and so, long story short, was able to enjoy having a cup of tea morning noon and night 7 days a week.

One day his wife informed him of the impending patter of tiny feet, and so it was.
Now he had to sacrifice one cup of tea a day for the new arrival, such is life.

Come the following Spring and the patter of feet increased to another arrival, and so with stoical countenance the man sacrificed his noon cuppa for the latest new arrival.

All was well until the following Spring when yet another surpise visit from pattering feet reduced his cup of tea joy to just a cup at Breakfast time.

"Woe is me", said the man, "I am undone.....my tea sipping joy has departed and I am full of woe, perhaps if'n I swept the floor in overtime I could increase the waste yield and increase my tea allowance,"....and so it came to pass, but there was a cloud on the horizon...the tea factory was increasing it's output and new machinery for packing was installed which made waste tea very hard to come by.

The man gnashed his teeth with anguish, "Why me dear Lord, why me?" he cried....and the Lord said, "You bloody fool, all those pattering feet...didn't you stop to think about your priorities, given your lowly circumstances"?

Perhaps we should think about our population explosion and consider the resources that are going to get scarcer while the body count increases.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

Supposing Coal, Oil and Nuclear ran out tomorrow, well the day after tomorrow for the some of us, how would you power up your laptop, TV or Hi Fi?

You'd plug them into the wall like you always have, check your energy allocation quota to see if'n you with your Wind Mill and PV panel on the roof have made enough to indulge in the joy of web browsing and/or reading a book with LED lighting or flouro tubes, but you would still be able to do one or more of those things, as long as the wind blew, the sun shone and your energy quota was still in credit.

It would mean some revising of your energy priorities and schedules, cooking before TV watching, or charging the car's batteries so you don't have to walk to work, or drinking tap water instead of boiling up a cup of "kawfee" like you use to.

Life would still go on, but not as you know it Jim.

Many homes in OZ burn wood for Winter heating, 'cos it's cheaper and cozier, but they would just as well go Solar if'n wood burning was not too "green" for the environmental "clean air" regulations that could come into force.

Those lucky enough to own a bit of land on the outskirts of civilisation would probably have enough generating capacity and the room to install it, so life could be quite snug for them, but city dwellers would have to "pay as you go", similar to the days when I was a boy in the 1940's and had to feed the gas meter under the stairs with a shilling or two when the gas went out.

By that time you could be paying $1 a KWH for your electricity, and have it on for as much as two hours a day, such would be the generating capacity when millions of unnecessary mouths are using it.

Hiawatha summed it up in a few words when he saw the advance of the White man on the plains, "Plenty Buffalo, too many people"....LOL....Hiya 'Watha, nothing lasts forever.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

I say....cut ALL subsidies for green house gas reduction iniatives, the tax payer shouldn't have to pay for other people's greed.

Nobody counting the dollars is really concerned whether or not the CO2 is being reduced, it's the botom line on the power bill and the PV panel installation costs that people will relate to.

At the same time, installing PV panels to reduce energy costs, are a story of fiction, otherwise the whole country would jump up and install the things.....you get back more than you pay out...right?....B/S.....the sun don't shine 24/7, and when it does shine the returns are so minimal the overall cost will never be paid by the overall returns for the life of the system.....otherwise EVERYBODY would have them, but not everybody wants to spend a dollar to earn a cent.

True, you will earn a cent if you invest a dollar, but in the very fullness of time, by the time the dollar has earned a dollar the original dollar is now only worth a cent...inflation takes care of that.

The time has come the Walrus said to think of other things....at this moment in time....not PV panels at the present cost and life expectency.

Until there are no other means to produce electric power, going green is a Yuppie ideal, and as Yuppies state, "I thought it was a good idea at the time", having been "sold" the Green now...tomorrow is too late policy.

If the Govenment was truly concerned about CO2, it would itself take immediate steps to shut down all coal and oil power stations, install massive quantities of PV panels on all buildings with roofs on and just charge whatever it costs to make it pay.....if'n you can't afford the Green energy, so sit in the dark, read a book, and go to bed early, but at least you'll get a warm glow knowing you "saved" the planet from the depredations that you as a species have commited.

Today you pay willingly whatever the power companies decide to charge you, and your wages are tailored by Union pressure to meet your commitments, so in years to come the wages will rise to meet the new challenge...trust me....Green is for Go.

The very truth of the situation is....if'n the PV panels were cost effective, that is the cost to supply, install and maintain for the expected 25 years of life, were true figures, this suggest that PV supply is less costly than oil or coal, WHICH IT AIN'T.....you get back less than you paid for the installation for it's life span, and that's a long time to wait for a diminishing return on your dollar, and when the array eventually fails and has to be replaced it's only worth scrap value if that, you have to foot the bill all over again....you're paying a dollar to earn a few cents, and losing your original dollar at the end.

If'n you think this is a bunkum notion, think of an alternative power creation supply, and install it, then turn off the power company supply and if'n you are ahead at the end of a week.....wake up you're dreaming, at this moment in time while centralised production using oil, coal, gas, hydro and maybe Nuke are in use, ANY other means are less cost effective.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

THE HIGHER THE TOP THE LONGER THE DROP.

Present day energy production is as sophisticated and techno heavy as you can get, which means if'n you take away all the progress made to date, and go back to the beginning, which without the oil, coal, gas, and nuke input is where you're gonna be.

It doesn't matter if'n the Globe warms or cools, there has always been some energy producer to offset it, but now is the start of the decline of civilisation as we presently know it......energy will be hard to harvest, especially if'n it has to serve more and more users.

This doesn't mean we can't make energy for our needs, or to be very precise for the needs of those that can afford it.

Just because a person breathes does not mean he/she automatically qualifies for an energy allocation.

The New World Order will be the distribution of the available wealth achieved by a diminishing means to harness it, so making hay while the Sun shines could very well be the actual way of the present for the future.

All this is just irrelevant, 'cause it ain't gonna happen in our time, in our great grandchildrens' time maybe, but not right now, so drink up, make merry....and don't be a party pooper.
An honourable mention in dispatches to Fizzwizz for the Battery info link, very interesting.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

An old Chinese proverb, "How can you complain that it hurts when you are beaten by a rod of your own making".

Anybody, that allowed an authority to exist that makes a law like Property Tax, has only themselves to blame when they "live in the land of the free"........what a joke....LOL.

I guess yo'all with your guns will take to the streets and wave your arms in the air when they start to tax you for installing PV panels and private windmills come the day when the oil and coal run out and they can't charge you for something they aren't providing.

All this just goes to prove the B/S that is being hoisted about Climate Change and the measures to combat it from so called Carbon Emission controls.

Anybody, disengaging themselves from the present energy producers using oil, coal and Nuke etc, are in actual fact being TOTALLY ENVIRONMENTALLY CONSCIOUS and as such should get the Nobel Peace prize for helping to save the Planet, instead yo'all being hypocrites like yo' are, set legislation in motion to skin the people like leeches you are.

But I digress, the object of Climate control is to control those that are subject to environmental occurances, and as such going from the sublime to the ridiculous, anyone who constructs a Tornado proof house should be taxed to the hilt for denying the housing industry revenue from the aftermath of a tornado and the rebuilding cost that would have been paid to the industry if'n the house was demolished.

I enquired at our local government office about the topic of generating electric power from a stream that ran through my property, and they were very concerned that I could be subject to flooding come a heavy rain fall, but more concerned that in the suburbs there was a hitherto unknown water course that so far had not been shown on any map of the area, but I hastened to assure them it was a hypothetical stream, and they informed me it was actually a water resource and so the property of the Melbourne Water Authority, and as such I would have to ak their permission to divet, obstruct or in any way interfere with the natural flow of the waterway.

The MWA informed me that I would have to get planning permission to construct a dam and install generating equipment and as it was in an urban area it would come under the auspices of the Town Planning Authority.

A long story short....NOBODY has the authority to give me permission to utilise and generate power from a stream of water that originated from rainfall and eventually passed through my property, and as such NOBODY could apply legislation to prevent me from doing that.

Now that is what I call living in the land of the FREE.....eat your heart out Yanks....your Constitution is a charter for enslaving you.....the right to bear arms...(but not to use them in any way whatsoever).

BTW, Dufa, learn to spell, the "Gov never LOSES", not looses, as in post #7543 for to loose means never let go.......on the other hand, taken at it's broadest interpretation, is probably correct.
Ian.

[DAZZ]

I’ve been approached by one of the travelling PV salesman who made the offer to convert to solar for a mere $17000, supposedly enough to cover my electricity bill. The deal consisted of the government installation subsidy and a pay back period of 4 years by means of a 60 cent per kwh feed in tariff, so FREE power in 4 years. He also told me that the government guarantied the 60 cent feed in tariff for 12 years . As always the salesman wanted me to sign up straight away because he wouldn’t be back in my area and didn’t want me to miss this great deal. I told him that I would contact him when I had done some more home work, (translated to go away I‘m not interested).
I’m sceptical on anything government says and my gut was rumbling on this one. It seems as though my gut was correct, at least its starting to.
NSW solar scandal ... a million roofs forgotten | Crikey
Snip

The NSW solar scandal just gets worse by the day. On Tuesday, the NSW government announced a new “support package” to help solar households in “hardship” as part of its decision to retrospectively slash the gross feed-in tariff by a third from 60 cents per kilowatt hour to 40 cents.

I have a huge issue with this scam/scheme, it smells bad. Call me old fashioned but I do not like the idea of thieving 40 cent per kwh of tax payers money to pay for my solar system, let alone the installation subsidy. It’s just plain and simply wrong to impose this cost on people who choose not to indulge or just can’t afford to purchase a system. The way this so called green technology is being shoved down peoples throats makes me physically feel sick. I can see exactly where it is coming from and where it is leading us. And I resent people telling me what I have to do. Do not treat me like a child, I can make my own decisions thank you very much.

Dazz

[fizzissist]

A pyramid scheme is a pyramid scheme, whether the people start it, or the gov't starts it.

DAZZ's description sounds a lot like what's happened in Spain, and all you have to do is see what a fiasco that whole program turned out to be to want to run when someone uses the words "government" and "guaranteed" in the same sentence.

....btw...... Pyramid schemes must, by their very nature, collapse at some point. There's a threshold where you simply run out of new "customers".

[40fordcoupe]

Government help is the classic oxymoron.
The current mess we are in is the best example I can think of.

BTW How did they Romans create global warming by burning Christians?

[fizzissist]

Burning christians is just so wrong.....they sequester CO2.

Christians do serve a purpose.

(Muslims can sequester CO2 also, but they tend to spontaneously explode a lot)

[handlewanker]

There's always someone who thinks a racial joke is in vogue....clap....clap.....clap.

Going back to the NSW problem about tax payers subsidizing the PV Panels and the "Great Expectations" of the tax payers who had them installed, leads me to quote an old Jewish proverb my Granny once told me...... "Such as you give will not buy you one moment of the Lord's time, give if'n it pleases you to give, look for your rewards in heaven and die happy".

Surely, the reason to install PV panels is to save the Planet, so thereby getting an honourable mention when you go to Heaven.

But it would seem that vested interests are in vogue, for not only do the PV panel "investors" want to have the tax payer to pay towards their panels, but they also want to get the electricity for free.....come on you greedy B##stards, it's the environment we're talking about, not the bank balance, or is it?

Doing some sums, and assuming that it cost on average $1,500 per year for your electricity, and a PV panel set-up cost $15,000 to provide all your electric needs without the grid or back generating to the grid, total useage etc, then if'n the panels were paid for in cash, it would take 10 years for pay back from them, and you get 15 years electricity for free, if'n the life expectancy of the panels is 25 years.

But, if'n you have to borrow the dough at 6% int P/A on your home loan, you pay an extra $87 per month int. rates or $1,044 per year, free electricity and $456 in your pocket.

The mortgage rate will more or less stay the same, $1,044 per year, but electricity prices will go up year by year, the dollar declines in buying power, so the savings long term are tangible.

After 25 years you are either rich and can afford to replace the ageing panels for a cash payout, or start the process again.

Over 25 years the cost of panels will have halved at least, and become more efficient, so producing more, and so extra input to the grid to increase pay back for the loan.

All these figures seem too cost effective....maybe I should install some...hmmmmmm.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

BTW, if'n you are using gas for cooking and heating, changing to electric total (with an electric car too) with exended PV panel arrays you could be really generating an income.

It just depends on the actual output per sq metre per annum the current set-ups are achieving.
Ian.

[fizzissist]

“Well, there is not that many other countries that have the configuration of North America to make the tornadoes,” Nye said...

"You don’t have tornado in Norway. The weather is set up differently."

Bill Nye | Tornadoes | Global Warming | The Daily Caller

Good work, Bill. You can tell the hundreds of people who are killed each year in India that they're getting killed by a spinny-wind thingy, not a tornado, and they can blame it on the U.S. for not having more patriots like you.

Frickin' idiot.

[MrWild]

Fizz, please show us where you got your hundreds of tornado deaths each year in India information. My own research says you're pulling rabbits from hats, but I'm using a government run Tornado data base and your crystal ball might be more up to date. Five tornado events from 1963 to present.

[fizzissist]

http://bangladeshtornadoes.org/climo/TORCLIMB.htm

Bibliography

"North and central India heats up and dries out in late March or early April. A deep, dry mixed layer develops. Low level flow from the Bay of Bengal increases markedly during this time.

Westerly mid-level flow around the Tibetan Plateau advects the Indian mixed layer over the Bengal moist tongue. This leads to the elevated mixed layer. Note that parts of the Indian desert are "elevated"(1-3000ft) compared to Bangladesh which is near sea level.

The mid level flow is still fairly strong in April with 30-50kt 700mb flow and 35 to 50 kt 500mb flow fairly common.

The high level jet is usually over or just north of Bengal in April.

The southern branch of the polar jet often retreats north of the Tibetan Plateau by May, leaving light, mid to high level flow across the Bengal region. By June the high level flow is light.

All these factors result in a tornado maximum in early to mid April. In short, vertical wind shear and instability are maximized and the jet is in a favorable position during this time."
Bangladesh Tornado Presentation

Bangladesh Tornado Climatology

Quick Response Report #90 - Tornadoes in the Districts of Jamalpur and Tangail in Bangladesh

"Bangladesh is the most vulnerable country to tornadoes and severe thunderstorm related disasters in the world. Tornado statistics alone shows great amounts of damage in Bangladesh in the past few decades. During 1961 -96 local newspapers reported 10,766 tornado deaths. During the thirty five-year period, twenty of 199 tornadoes killed more than 100 people and seven of them killed more than 500 people. In 1996, the Tangail Tornadoes killed 700 people and the Manikganj Tornado in 1989, which might have killed up to 1,170 people, is believed to be the deadliest tornado in the world. If adding losses caused by microbursts and lightning, the annual number of deaths caused by severe storms in the country may reach 500. Still, there is no severe storm early warning system or preparedness in Bangladesh yet."
http://www.preventionweb.net/files/1...Bangladesh.pdf

Regarding Bangladesh being a country other than India, it should be noted that it is surrounded by India, making my claim substantially correct. So if it makes you happy, I'll just offer the retraction and correct substitution of Bangladesh.

You might be looking at the wrong gov't run Tornado data base......Try using my crystal ball, it seems to be more productive.

Now, if you're still intent on challenging the India claim, chew on this:
Cyclone/Tornado IndiaAgri growth statistics details figures

[handlewanker]

That was Bill Fizzwizz with the weather, as usual totally out of proportion comparing Tornado Alley with anything bangladesh can offer., otherwise Bangladesh would be history.

You'll never see the Stormchasers active in Bangladesh, waiting for that once in a while "twirly whirly"......admitted that a few people got terminated, but as they live in shacks and mud huts that's to be expected.

That's also a reason the Banga's don't give names to tornados like the US does....rarity factor.
Ian.

[fizzissist]

There's a somewhat heated exchange taking place over whether warmer climates mean wetter climates or not, and to what degree. The topic started around the record snowfall in the Grand Tetons, Rocky Mountain, and the Sierra Nevada mountain ranges.

This link should be of interest in that argument,
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/vi...ra+droughts%22

In the Abstract:
"...Numerical calculations indicate that the shift in the d18O baseline probably resulted from a transition to a wetter (>30%) and cooler (3–51C) climate. The existence of a relatively dry and warm middle-Holocene climate in the Truckee River– Pyramid Lake system is generally consistent with archeological, sedimentological, chemical, physical, and biological records from various sites within the Great Basin of the western United States..."

Some 3100 years ago, in the Pyramid Lake region of Nevada.....
"Model-based explanations for the shift in d18O values suggest a transition to a colder and wetter climate at this time."

I'll bet MrWild knows the answers! His crystal balls are bigger than mine.

[handlewanker]

That link must mean something to the amateur climatologists, that is not the ones actually delving into the entrails of Rams and attempting to predict the weather, even if'n they go back 3,100 years and remark that...." on that day 3,100 years ago approximately, it started out wet and windy, and given that this is a common occurence around that part of the World, we can safely say, without too much criticism, that the chances are it will be wet, and maybe, but not certainly, a bit windy, however if'n it turns to the contrary, then maybe the previous year was the one we should have taken as our target example.....sh!t happens frequently in the 'bureau".

3,100 years ago there wasn't much Homo Sapientic activity going on, so comparing that weather to today's weather pattern just gotta be pulling the old plonker a bit if'n a comparison is any indication of current events Climate Change wise.

The very fact that 3,100 years ago Man made practices like oil, coal , Nuke and other chemical activity wasn't happening is an indication that as the current Climate events now are the same as then, then by all accounts logical....mankind is not a figure to be injected into the Climate Models currently being practiced.

You cannot predict the weather, maybe just indicate that in the next few days chances are it's going to rain with some wind, but this time next year.....not going to happen.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

It's a known fact, you can't be right all the time....and governments are bound by this phenomena....the desal plant being one example of foresight not being in step with hind sight, or if'n the desal plant was built just before it was needed...problem solved, but as is in most cases, nothing needs to be done when it comes to spending tax money until it needs to be done.

Victoria has just come out of a 10 year drought cycle...very dry...then come 2010 the rainy season started in March and we also had a relatively late and wet Summer, and my water tank I installed in 2009 is overflowing....why didn't I get the tank in 2000 when the weather started drying up?....'cos my crystal ball was in the standby mode and didn't wake up till 2009.

I expect the desal plant will be used to make water for other purposes.....maybe disguised as Spring Water, sold for a dollar a bottle.....which is probably what the water would cost anyway if'n you needed it when the rains stop.

I'm very tempted to support the Lib Government of 'ol Bicycle Bill, Tony Abbot, next election, 'cos he's against the Carbon Tax wotsit, but by all accounts the average wage earner and retirees will be compensated to meet the tax demand, so maybe I'll stick with Missy Gillard and see how it works out.

What puzzles me is if'n they gonna compensate everybody to offset the tax, who's actually going to pay for it....unless of course it's one way to put aside something for a "rainy day"...or a slush fund.....and that leaves the others who don't earn money 'cos they are unemployed or drug dealing, stealing or making dough on the side as undeclared income.....bloody crafty government the Ozzilites, making the undeserving pay up at last.

I'm always wary of "compensation" to offset new taxes, eventually the wages get adjusted down to allow for the compensation and you end up with the same wage structure but the new tax stays the same on top of it.
Ian.