[Pratyeka]

We received the RS6090 this week. It has a 2.2kw water cooled variable frequency spindle, 24" X 36" working area, Ucancam V9 software, all for $3000USD. Very solidly built with cast iron table frame sitting on welded 3" square tube base. Linear bearings (20mm rails), 1" precision ballscrews.
I checked all the screws and bearings and found them tight with no play. The electronics compartment is clean and well laidout, all connections are tight and covered with hot glue to guard against vibration.
I'm still waiting for the electrician to install a 220V outlet in the shop, so I'll report on the operation later.
So far, their salesperson was efficient and curteous. They answered all my questions precisely. they will modify the machines as per your request.
Shipping took less than a month.

[HobbyCAD]

Rocket, can you post Taney's contact info here? I want to purchase 4th axis components, to add to my 1336. I need a Leadshine MA860 stepper motor controller, and the rotary axis with chuck and rotary position encoder on it. I don't need a tailstock. I'll do my own installation.

[vallen]

Ok, now that I have read this whole thing in it's entirety, I have to address my own confusion.

Rocket, I know you are digging these machines- and in my own effort to get a great price, have definitely considered many Chinese CNC's- BUT (and this is a big one) all your problems confuse the heck out me. I know you said it was poor service, but you referenced many Quality Control issues, which in my mind is a deal-breaker.
Downtime = money, and if I'm playing Cantonese translate over Skype or E-mail, that does me no good. I know I can get a rep from Shopbot on the phone in 30 seconds.
Your statement may be positive, but looking at your experiences, looks like a nightmare that I wouldn't want if a client is waiting on a job.

Don't get me wrong. I've had plenty of decent Chinese products, but for the most part, they dont have the craftsmanship, support and quality assurances I need for a production machine.

And spindles- Japanese spindles are freaking awesome NASA quality, whereas the Chinese spindles I've seen look embarrassingly bad quality.

Just my Opinion!

[rocket67]

Vallen, Your opinion is welcomed mate.

As far as problems go - What problems? Machines are working fine, in fact our first machine has been pumping out routered panels in our production area for 3 years now.

In that time most problems were related to lack of lubrication by the operator and easy fixed by lubricating the machine. Last week my son dropped the DSP Controller and broke it, but fortunately we had a spare controller on hand and had the macchine running again in little over an hour.

Maybe i have given out too much info which makes you think they are unreliable? Not so, we are stoked with the machines. our alternative in Australia is to spend around 60k for a locally made machine. You blokes in the USA have a vastly different situation with quite a few local manufacturers competing for your hard earned dollars. I am envious.

Good on you for posting. Thanks.

Rocket.

[pgh3]

Hi, I bought the '3040' model from a company in Shanghai and apart from chasing them for a tracking number and a nervous wait, the machine came in good condition and, apart from one cable problem, has worked very well.
The manual is abysmal but the Forums make it all worthwhile!
I would definitely buy again from China - but I would probably check out the seller more intensely second time around.
My interest is at hobby level, not production.
Peter

[g29cc]

Chinese machines can be a big hit or miss. With a HEAVY EMPHASIS ON MISS.

I bought a J-Cut Router 1212B with dual spindles. Its been sitting in my shop for almost a month + now and does not run.

Numerous problems with it.

Stripped bolt hole threads, damaged castings, rigged up parts because of stripped out holes, parts with one bolt holding them on , just hanging there ( nice since its a limit switch ).

NO TECH SUPPORT. REPEAT NO TECH SUPPORT.

Everything was all good up until the I paid in full and the machine got here. Than it was a sorry mess after that.

There is NO wire schematic for my machine supposedly. And there are major wiring issues.

I don't believe I got everything I paid for. Heck can't tell the machine won't turn on and operate correctly, because the wiring is wrong someplace.

So I am out the cash, out the major time, my production is majorly delayed and I am going to have to purchase items to make a brand new machine work.

So my vote is

SAVE YOUR MONEY , BUY A GOOD USED MACHINE THAT CAN BE SERVICED AND YOU CAN TALK TO SOMEONE IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY ABOUT.


Here are some of the pictures of my machine filled with metal shavings on the linear rails and balls screws, they were NOT cleaned prior to shipping. If I didn't have all these problems I might not have noticed all the metal and would have damaged my rails and screws because of it ( its all hidden behind the way covers ).

Also the pillow block for one of the spindles was stripped and just rotated, redrilled and left cockeyed. Hopefully I can either helicoil the stripped out threads and machine a new block, or I don't know what at this point.















Got questions?

[email protected]

586.232.3422 Mon- Fri 9am to 5 pm Eastern time.

Todd

[garyo1954]

Americans don't have the wide variety, low cost, readily available machines it appears.

I say that after a two week search on the internet and driving a couple of hours in every direction, cash in hand to buy a CNC router. I say that after many hours of emailing vendors, sellers, and other folk.

It appears to me, after all this, Americans have designs. You give money. Somebody orders the parts, builds the machine and sends it. The standard response to "when will it be ready/" seems to be, "After I receive all the parts, it will take two weeks or so."

These machines are not sitting on a shelf ready to be shipped.
These machines are in someone's mind waiting to be built.
Americans sell ideas, designs, plans, and information.
Americans do not manufacture, at least on a small scale.
And small businesses do not want to be caught behind the new technology craze with products they can't sell.

China manufactures. It builds. It takes ideas and makes them reality. It produces a product. Yes, there are going to be mistakes. No more than Carvewright/Compuserve in the US. But Chinese/import mistakes get blown out of proportion due to it being imported and cheaper than America can do it. And it is import duties that raise the price of Chinese goods to almost equity level with American made products.

I say this as a result of seeing Chinese machine for $1300, with an import duty of $566. That is still cheaper than having it built in America.

I sympathize with your plight g29cc. However, the very reason you bought the machine was you couldn't get a comparable priced product with reliable service on an American made machine. Likely you couldn't get the product you needed in the time frame necessary either.

I don't want to buy a Chinese/import, but if I do I know 1) I will get it within a given time frame with no excuse and 2) I will get a complete system at a better price with a few extras thrown in that Americans wouldn't/couldn't provide.

[Larken]

No, most small North American router companies don't have a Drive thru window.

Like most others my company has all the parts (machined in house) but we build your model of machine as ordered in 3-6 weeks. 4'x5' 4'x8' 5'x10' etc.
But you get a quality tested and waranteed machine with tech support.

Or you can buy a machine from a warehouse in china (built from some unknow shop), most untested, with flaws, wait 4 weeks for it to come over on a boat and have no tech support.

BTW, If you buy a machine for $1300 from china, do you really think it compares to anything made by a reputable company in NA ?

Larry K

Americans don't have the wide variety, low cost, readily available machines it appears.

I say that after a two week search on the internet and driving a couple of hours in every direction, cash in hand to buy a CNC router. I say that after many hours of emailing vendors, sellers, and other folk.

It appears to me, after all this, Americans have designs. You give money. Somebody orders the parts, builds the machine and sends it. The standard response to "when will it be ready/" seems to be, "After I receive all the parts, it will take two weeks or so."

These machines are not sitting on a shelf ready to be shipped.
These machines are in someone's mind waiting to be built.
Americans sell ideas, designs, plans, and information.
Americans do not manufacture, at least on a small scale.
And small businesses do not want to be caught behind the new technology craze with products they can't sell.

China manufactures. It builds. It takes ideas and makes them reality. It produces a product. Yes, there are going to be mistakes. No more than Carvewright/Compuserve in the US. But Chinese/import mistakes get blown out of proportion due to it being imported and cheaper than America can do it. And it is import duties that raise the price of Chinese goods to almost equity level with American made products.

I say this as a result of seeing Chinese machine for $1300, with an import duty of $566. That is still cheaper than having it built in America.

I sympathize with your plight g29cc. However, the very reason you bought the machine was you couldn't get a comparable priced product with reliable service on an American made machine. Likely you couldn't get the product you needed in the time frame necessary either.

I don't want to buy a Chinese/import, but if I do I know 1) I will get it within a given time frame with no excuse and 2) I will get a complete system at a better price with a few extras thrown in that Americans wouldn't/couldn't provide.

[garyo1954]

No, most small North American router companies don't have a Drive thru window.

Like most others my company has all the parts (machined in house) but we build your model of machine as ordered in 3-6 weeks. 4'x5' 4'x8' 5'x10' etc.
But you get a quality tested and waranteed machine with tech support.

Or you can buy a machine from a warehouse in china (built from some unknow shop), most untested, with flaws, wait 4 weeks for it to come over on a boat and have no tech support.

BTW, If you buy a machine for $1300 from china, do you really think it compares to anything made by a reputable company in NA ?

Larry K

Yes, we do agree Larry. My response was written in response to rocket67's statement Americans have it vastly different. I haven't looked at your product, nor seen your site, so your company might be an exception. But having parts on hand and taking 3 to 6 weeks to deliver one unit is not efficiency.

Many CNC sites claim their kits can be built in an evening, a weekend, or at your leisure. Now, it would seem if a company can put together a kit that can be built by someone with minimal skill and tools in one evening or one weekend, people who do it for a living should be capable of assembling that kit in a week at worst.

And how many threads have you read where people ask why their product hasn't been shipped as promised? I've seen a few. I'm sure you have too.

When I was in college a million years ago, working for a company building an aircraft simulator, we set a goal to build a high voltage power supply in one day. Took two men to achieve winding the coils, assembly, QC, rework, and checkout in one day.

Hard to believe people who read mechanical drawings can't take parts off a shelf, and do less.

Seriously, if the parts are on hand and ready to be assembled, how can one take 3 to 6 weeks to kit an item which is going to be sent to someone with the promise they can produce it in one evening or one weekend with minimal experience and tools?

Larry, Americans can't produce an affordable pocket comb cheaply and quickly else they wouldn't be sending their work and companies overseas.

I agree tho, Larry. There is no drive-thru and these machines aren't sitting on a shelf waiting for buyers.

To your last question go back to your workshop and look at the labels on the tools you use to manufacture, assemble, and pack the kits you sell. Conservative estimates say that at least half those were made in China.

As I said, I haven't seen your product, nor your site, so this is not a personal issue. I'm speaking from two weeks of research and dealing with people who make grand promises until they have an order, and the promises become excuses.

In one particular case, the order went up $1500 just talking to the salesmen who offered options that sounded promising. Then I went back, read what their own technicians had to say, and cancelled.

I'm old school. If I say it will work, expect it to work. If I say you will have it, expect it before that date, or on that date. And if that becomes an impossibility, it is on me to contact you and apologize.

[g29cc]

Actually the problem is that the hobbyist has no option for a cheap enough machine that they can afford.

This machined was more of a toy than what I expected. As a small business I made mistake #1 that most small business owners make. And that is buying something that is cheap.

The China machines are cheap, the reason they are cheap vs the reason why the American or German machines are way more expensive ?

That reason is quality.

As a hobby type machine, you may get something that will work for you and work great for what a hobby person is looking to do. You might get "light" production from the machine. But the bottom line, after you get your business rolling, you WILL buy a better machine.

I haven't been to a million dollar business yet, heck half million dollar companies that are using cheap machines like the one I bought.

Bottom line, cheap means cheap. Expensive means quality.

I am kinda lost of what your talking about not having machines in America here. I think what your saying is there aren't machines in your price range you can afford here in America.

You can buy a used quality machine. Which is what I should have done. But I made a mistake.

Hobby China machine you will spend more time fixing and repairing, which in the end, winds up costing what you would have spent on a industrial American machine.

Of course this applies to business people and not so much a hobby person.

But still, the more you spend, the better the machine you will get. Obviously we all don't have millions to spend on machines, which sends us to look at Chinese machines a lot of the time.

[garyo1954]

Actually the problem is that the hobbyist has no option for a cheap enough machine that they can afford.

This machined was more of a toy than what I expected. As a small business I made mistake #1 that most small business owners make. And that is buying something that is cheap.

The China machines are cheap, the reason they are cheap vs the reason why the American or German machines are way more expensive ?

That reason is quality.

As a hobby type machine, you may get something that will work for you and work great for what a hobby person is looking to do. You might get "light" production from the machine. But the bottom line, after you get your business rolling, you WILL buy a better machine.

I haven't been to a million dollar business yet, heck half million dollar companies that are using cheap machines like the one I bought.

Bottom line, cheap means cheap. Expensive means quality.

I am kinda lost of what your talking about not having machines in America here. I think what your saying is there aren't machines in your price range you can afford here in America.

You can buy a used quality machine. Which is what I should have done. But I made a mistake.

Hobby China machine you will spend more time fixing and repairing, which in the end, winds up costing what you would have spent on a industrial American machine.

Of course this applies to business people and not so much a hobby person.

But still, the more you spend, the better the machine you will get. Obviously we all don't have millions to spend on machines, which sends us to look at Chinese machines a lot of the time.

I agree to some extent g29cc. Americans have it easy. In most cases it is not a matter of making do with what is available. We're a throwaway society that buys something else if what we have don't work out. But remember, every country produces bad products from poor design, uncaring workers, or shysters trying to make a quick buck. No country corners the market on these people.

Yes, there are machines I can't afford, but I can afford the machine I want without breaking the bank. And that is my goal.

Over the years, I've learned tools are investments. So buying a tool is not the end of the journey; it's the beginning of a new enterprise that is going to require feeding.

I set my budget at 2/3 what I expect to spend. That should buy the basic machine or the parts to build the machine. I do this knowing there would be some adjustments, rework, fine tuning or options I would want to add after getting the machine up and running.

Yes, it is true the more you spend the better quality you get. But quality is not an American made product. It is something every company works to achieve. Few care where the product comes from if it does it's job. We don't even think about where the product comes from unless we have a problem with it. And only then, are we going to call it cheap.

There are thousands of things you use daily that give you no problem that were made in China, Korea, Thailand, Mexico, etc. Many you can't buy with a Made In America label. As long as they work, we'll use them without complaint.

The bottom line for most Americans is, if Americans can't produce a product I need when I need it, at a price I can afford, then I have no choice but to take my business to whoever can. And that is what they do.

As I said, I sympathize with you. I've been there, done that countless times and every time I think I've learned, I've learned I only fooled myself into thinking I did.

It's a not fun lesson.

[RossMosh]

I don't want to buy a Chinese/import, but if I do I know 1) I will get it within a given time frame with no excuse and 2) I will get a complete system at a better price with a few extras thrown in that Americans wouldn't/couldn't provide.

This type of thinking is DANGEROUS. You need to read more about buying directly from China.

I also think your idea that you should be able to walk in and buy a CNC machine ready to go is crazy. They build to order in China the same way they do in the US. No one is going to invest that kind of money and to possibly have it sit around for weeks or months or forever. People need to pay their bills. Running a shop has enough overhead, adding a machine just sitting there hoping someone walks in and wants it is just adding more pressure in an economy which has enough business owners stressing out.

Also your CNC kits that take a weekend to build take 6-8 weeks to ship. The parts still need to be purchases. They need to be modified. They need to be assembled and tested. Go look into them before you say stuff like this. FinelineAutomation is 8 weeks for a CNC kit. k2CNC is 4-6 weeks I believe. Xzero is 4-8 weeks. Frankly, I don't know too many people who are carrying stock. You never know when someone will order a 4x4 vs a 4x3 vs a 4x2. You might get 6 orders for a 4x2 in a month and you just built three 4x2 machines. It can become an issue.

[garyo1954]

This type of thinking is DANGEROUS. You need to read more about buying directly from China.

I also think your idea that you should be able to walk in and buy a CNC machine ready to go is crazy. They build to order in China the same way they do in the US. No one is going to invest that kind of money and to possibly have it sit around for weeks or months or forever. People need to pay their bills. Running a shop has enough overhead, adding a machine just sitting there hoping someone walks in and wants it is just adding more pressure in an economy which has enough business owners stressing out.

Also your CNC kits that take a weekend to build take 6-8 weeks to ship. The parts still need to be purchases. They need to be modified. They need to be assembled and tested. Go look into them before you say stuff like this. FinelineAutomation is 8 weeks for a CNC kit. k2CNC is 4-6 weeks I believe. Xzero is 4-8 weeks. Frankly, I don't know too many people who are carrying stock. You never know when someone will order a 4x4 vs a 4x3 vs a 4x2. You might get 6 orders for a 4x2 in a month and you just built three 4x2 machines. It can become an issue.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information so I can't speak to what you call fact. But there is nothing dangerous about what I've said. Look at everything in your home and determine how much you bought before you received, and how much comes from American companies. Even that computer you are using to respond, ever consider where it was made? All those little parts inside, ever read the labels? And like it or not, companies produce quality, not countries.

You think people are crazy when they walk into a Lowes and buy a Carvewright? Is it crazy when people walk into Rockler's and buy a Shark?

Now, how can a project that takes a weekend to assemble take 8 weeks to kit?
I think you answered that perfectly. THE PARTS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN STOCK HAVE TO BE ORDERED/purchased..
That means, in plain English, those parts are not in stock. To break it down further, it means, "front me the money to build, buy, and ship this to you and I'll do it."
Another step in the chain is, "don't ask where the parts came from" because we buy our stuff from Chinese suppliers, or from suppliers who buy from China.

I was born but not yesterday, as they say. So I won't be getting into details of any of the companies I've dealt with, but there are a lot of promises made and very few results when the bottom line of "do you have it ready to ship?" is asked.

Insanity? That is tying up my money not knowing when I will receive what I ordered. Or if I will receive it. Or if it will work as promised, if and when, I receive it. That is insanity.

Did you know that offering a product is different than offering a service? And from your description you are offering a service to purchase, modify and build a product. I'm not asking for your service. I'm asking for an advertised product that the salesman say, "Yes, we have it!"

Of course, a product is the same as I walk into Lowes to buy a router, a washing machine, a faucet, or any other item. If I'm told I have to wait for Lowes to purchase, modify, and build my new washing machine, my business, my money, and me, are going elsewhere.

Your point is exactly on target. Far too often the people advertising product don't have product. They are not offering product. They are offering service.

Now, you tell me:

If I can get it from China in two weeks, or an American company that is going to buy it, or parts from China, and take 8 weeks to deliver, what makes more sense?

I've been in business too long to retrain.

[RossMosh]

Frankly, I don't think you have a clue what it's like to run a business. You remind me of the people who walk into my store, want something custom, and expect me to drop everything to appease them and are shocked when I don't stock EXACTLY what they have in mind. Evidently you are the sun and everything evolves around you.

If you want a Chinese machine, buy one from China. Just don't expect the experience you pretend happens. I promise you, it is not easy buying directly from China. It's really easy saying "yes". It's not so easy to actually come through.

[g29cc]

people who walk into my store, want something custom, and expect me to drop everything to appease them and are shocked when I don't stock EXACTLY what they have in mind.

it is not easy buying directly from China. It's really easy saying "yes". It's not so easy to actually come through.

This is SO TRUE.

That about sums up what I think about a lot of things as well.

And it not only applies to China , but just about anybody really. I have several companies I deal with and it just seems like its easier to get information before you buy, than after you buy. Because your no longer a potential customer.

[Larken]

Yes, we do agree Larry. My response was written in response to rocket67's statement Americans have it vastly different. I haven't looked at your product, nor seen your site, so your company might be an exception. But having parts on hand and taking 3 to 6 weeks to deliver one unit is not efficiency.

Many CNC sites claim their kits can be built in an evening, a weekend, or at your leisure. Now, it would seem if a company can put together a kit that can be built by someone with minimal skill and tools in one evening or one weekend, people who do it for a living should be capable of assembling that kit in a week at worst.

Sure if we worked day and night for a week we could build you a fully wired and tested machine to your order specs, but why would wee need that pressure. ( I've Made that mistake in the past and have the high blood pressure to prove it)

I have a small shop with limited space so each large machine must be built in order, and when i get an order, i usually have others already half built. It also costs a lot of money to buy the Linear bearings, motors, cable chain, gear rack leadscrews and i don't buy from china (except all motors are made in china now).


What your assembling in a weekend must be a very basic machine with the controller and wiring all ready to go. Do you think you could assemble a Techno 4'x8' in a weekend ?? Hardly. You could put a model car together in a night, but a real car would take you a year !


Check out our 4'x8' machine. If you can assemble it in a Week, Your Hired!
Larken System 100 CNC router system

Larry K




How could you build a complete cnc router, align it, wire it, build the controller

[g29cc]

Larry,
You guys have to work on advertising more. Because when I looked, I didn't find your company. From the looks of your machine, I would have easily spent the extra money I had to get something that looked quality like what your company offers.

Todd

[garyo1954]

Sure if we worked day and night for a week we could build you a fully wired and tested machine to your order specs, but why would wee need that pressure. ( I've Made that mistake in the past and have the high blood pressure to prove it)

I have a small shop with limited space so each large machine must be built in order, and when i get an order, i usually have others already half built. It also costs a lot of money to buy the Linear bearings, motors, cable chain, gear rack leadscrews and i don't buy from china (except all motors are made in china now).

What your assembling in a weekend must be a very basic machine with the controller and wiring all ready to go. Do you think you could assemble a Techno 4'x8' in a weekend ?? Hardly. You could put a model car together in a night, but a real car would take you a year !

Check out our 4'x8' machine. If you can assemble it in a Week, Your Hired!
Larken System 100 CNC router system

Larry K

How could you build a complete cnc router, align it, wire it, build the controller

I like you Larry! You talk sense. You make good points. And I agree on many of them. We share the high blood pressure too. So we have commonality in that. I guess, from what the doctors tell me, is we are both go getters who have to learn to relax. Type A's who need to be more A-, or something like that.

Where we disagree is the idea of Custom. Again this is not personal. It applies to any site selling any product online.

Now, when companies offer 2 and 8 standard sizes. There is nothing custom about standard size. If I want a machine specifically dimensioned, that would be custom. If I can only order the size you make, that's not custom.
Too, if the machine offers 3 options, then there are only three options I can order. To be simple: take the two best selling small sizes and make up parts for those. Or at least make the majority of the parts.

But as you admit, you have a limited workspace. This also means storage is limited. This also affects the availability of parts on hand, right?

I venture to say the majority of your sales are not 4' by 8' machines. It would nice if they were, and if they are you are geared more to larger companies (and schools) than to the average person buying a CNC machine for home and workshop purposes, who has a very limited workspace.

What these two things say is the company is geared toward walking the order in the front door and walking the product out the back in one shot due to almost no storage and limited workspace. I have no problem with that. Being back ordered is good too! And if you are, then you don't need the smaller one shot sales from the hobby and workshop owner.

Those guys are not in the market for a 4' by 8' machine on the whole anyway. Their concern, like mine, is along the lines is your 1515 or 2424, possibly a 4X4.

So by concentrating on the 4' X 8' market, there is a loss of sales and disgruntled buyers that comes with it. And this leads back to the point if Americans can't get a product when they need it, they go where they can get it. Americans are spoiled like that.

Larry, you have a wonderful site and it appears a great product!

[garyo1954]

This is SO TRUE.

That about sums up what I think about a lot of things as well.

And it not only applies to China , but just about anybody really. I have several companies I deal with and it just seems like its easier to get information before you buy, than after you buy. Because your no longer a potential customer.

You get it g29cc. Once you plunk the cash over, you're no longer an important account to most companies. The salesman has moved on to the next potential buyer.
That is the result of a sellers market. Sellers control the sale. Not a good thing for the buyer.
As Ross says, the seller controls the market as if he is the sun and everything revolves around him.

[fillupc]

This may just fuel the fire here, but I have a 5'x10' router from Jinan Quick on the way. It will be here on Friday. The experience up to this point has been great. I will say though that while the machine may not be considered "custom", it certainly had many different options for items such as spindle, vacuum pump, gantry height, motors, inverter, etc. The order was placed at the beginning of April. It took them three weeks to build it, about one more week for ship to leave, 14 days at sea, a week at port, and another week to come across the country. Will have been close to two months from order to delivery. Now, all of this was explained to me in detail upfront. I have no complaints.

Once it is up and running, I will post pictures and report on quality of the machine. If it is the quality that has been promised, I am considering ordering a full container of different sizes for resell here in the US. With the current interest rates being paid, I would have no problem sitting on some inventory for a while.

Phillip