[Geof]

None is so blind as he who will not see!

You did not answer my question; what truth are you trying to convince me of that I reject. You claim to be a stickler for polite discourse so discourse politely.

[jhowelb]

You did not answer my question; what truth are you trying to convince me of that I reject. You claim to be a stickler for polite discourse so discourse politely.

You give me credit for claiming titles that I've never alluded to.

Maybe the gut who called you Richard wasn't all that wrong.

At any rate, rave on, oh master of all you survey, you fount of incontrovertible truths. Bestow upon us unenlightened uncouth commoners a few gems of that "common sense" to which you refer in your tag line.

If we could get past your ego we probably would enjoy discourse with you. Would you one day consider allowing the rest of us to occupy the same floor in your ivory tower?

We could talk better that way. See, then you'd be talking WITH us rather than DOWN TO us.

Oh well, you didn't listen when some one else tried to tell you, you probably won;t listen to me either.

[Geof]

....If we could get past your ego we probably would enjoy discourse with you.

Okay discourse, you are still evading it. And you are not reading things correctly; I did n ot object to being called a Richard Cranium, I took the sentiment at its face value and said I had never been called that before. Yes I interpreted it in my reply because I don't see the sense in trying to hide behind euphemisms. I do have an ego, everyone has an ego, however I do not hide behind a lot of mumbo jumbo when asked a direct question; I repeat what truths are you trying to convince me of that I reject? You have not answered.

Actually it is quite amusing; when D-xyz did not answer your points and wandered all over the place using lots of words you became quite indignant. Now you seem to have taken a leaf out of her book; read into a post the interpretation you can disagree with then disagree. It is not valid discourse whether or not it is polite.

[jhowelb]

There was a chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab, the prof noticed one young man, an exchange student, who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist regime.

In the midst of his story, he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked: "Do you know how to catch wild pigs?" The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line.

The young man said that it was no joke. "You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground.

The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side.. The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat that free corn again. You then slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd. Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity."

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening in America. The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tax cuts, tax exemptions, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc.. While we continually lose our freedoms, just a little at a time.

One should always remember two truths: There is no such thing as a free lunch and you can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

Perhaps, if you READ it.............?

[Geof]

What truth are you trying to convince me of that I reject?

I did read the whole 'fenced in pig'; it is no different to the frog starting out in cold water on a stove and getting boiled alive. Both could even be true stories; I do not disagree with either of them as an apt analogy. I did post and pointed out the part that I did disagree with because it lacks commonsense.

Um, I did read it, did not disagree with the analogy therefore did not refer to it, but did point out here (post #1019) that I had read and agreed with it. I also point at what I did not agree with, and still do not agree with, and that is the bit about it being cheaper to do everything for yourself or by yourself.

So what am I rejecting?

[jhowelb]

No contest, man! You can piss farther! If I said "crap stinks!" you'd say "Not to the dung beetle" and then swear that your point is germane!

Him that has ears, let him hear. You'd be better accepted if you refrained from calling some one a liar or wrong over something insignificant in a statement. We aren't in law school and you aren't the professor.

[debogus]

"still do not agree with, and that is the bit about it being cheaper to do everything for yourself or by yourself."

The knowlege gained is priceless

Everything that I can do I do .Sometimes the learning curve is pricy.
But the knowlege can be applied in so many different directions.

Why am I here ?
That guy on the helicopter web site that made his blades on a cnc mill.
They were cool ,he started to sell them.
I could have just bought a set .That would have ended that
But I ended up here instead.
Ended up making a jig and hand sanding them ( 2 dollars materials and 30 minutes of time)
Instead of using the router I built and the software I bought.


When I broke one I make another ,no big deal.(tuff but not chain link fence tuff)

Now I am learning mold making and metal casting

Cheaper to do EVERYTHING ? Well not everything.
Well if you factor in the net return of knowlege gained, pretty close.

The more I learn ,the more I know ,that peoples egos ,jack the cost up(nuts)

[Geof]

... You'd be better accepted if you refrained from calling some one a liar or wrong....

I did not call anyone a liar, and in this case I initially said that I considered it a stretch to believe the bit about do it yourself, I did imply that I thought it was wrong; I was being gentle in my phrasing when I said I thought it a stretch; frankly I think tha, as a general statment, Can you not accept that sometimes someone can disagree with your opinions? In some posts I have commented that you brought up good points; in some posts you have actually expressed support for my points. Why have you suddenly become so insecure that you cannot tolerate disagreement?

Incidentally have you never called anyone wrong?

[One of Many]

Okay discourse, you are still evading it. And you are not reading things correctly; I did n ot object to being called a Richard Cranium, I took the sentiment at its face value and said I had never been called that before. Yes I interpreted it in my reply because I don't see the sense in trying to hide behind euphemisms. I do have an ego, everyone has an ego, however I do not hide behind a lot of mumbo jumbo when asked a direct question; I repeat what truths are you trying to convince me of that I reject? You have not answered.

Actually it is quite amusing; when D-xyz did not answer your points and wandered all over the place using lots of words you became quite indignant. Now you seem to have taken a leaf out of her book; read into a post the interpretation you can disagree with then disagree. It is not valid discourse whether or not it is polite.

Let's clarify this tiff for posterity!

Geof:If you are put on the defensive that is your problem not mine. Several months ago I posted in the thread "Why do you visit CNCzone", or some title like that. Included in my reasons was to puncture pompous prigs; and I think you will agree there are some. Another reason was to be a pompous prig myself to irritate people. Bit childish?

DC:
Pompous prig(around here we use the PC term "Richard Cranium") is probably a more accurate term than intellectual prose, that puts people on the defensive.

Geof:
How I am is how I am, but I don't think I have ever found it necessary to call someone a D*** H*** no matter how it is dressed up.

Pompous Prig may not be a euphemisms to all, but it can be interpreted/dressed up as as any other connotation. Which I honestly interpreted as RC=PP=DH. Pick one that suits your sensitivities, but the result is the same. To which, yes I do agree there are some....if he only knew or even cared(the pot calling the kettle black?)........ Which Geof did cop a plea to labeling others that irritate him, disclosing his MO; in his own words making his tactic of irritation with them, their problem if they become defensive. Out of the pan into the fire.....ribit, ribit!

Say what? Hiding behind a euphemism? Noooo.........."I was being gentle in my phrasing". LOL!

In my own defense, Probably........Pompous Prig was the primary more accurate term at the time(to late to back away from that now!). The more I see it distorted into name calling on my part, the more I should have REMOVED THE SECONDARY TRANSLATED TERM FROM THE PARENTHESES and made it the more accurate term, in order to make these distortions accurate!

I equated it as an MO not a personal label! Get it, got it, GOOD! Can we move on?

In physics, every action has a reaction. In the last few weeks.....I have learned the probability of a perceived intentional negative action by one human to another has a pretty good chance of becoming an over reaction on the receiving end. While the first is sometimes unexpected, the reaction may be worse than you bargained for. Where by a little consideration goes a long ways in not provoking and instigating strife.



EGADS IT GETS MORE RIDICULOUS EVERY TIME I COME HERE!

Don't make me pull out the group hug smiley boys!


DC

[jhowelb]

Lets go back and look at the services listed in the statement.

<snip> programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tax cuts, tax exemptions, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. <snip>

Now that list is a far cry from "sweeping floors" or "swamping out bathrooms" or even making your own hobby items.

What we are really seeing is a list of things which are supplied from the gubment teat and the things required to keep the teat full of rewards. The damned government taxes you 30&#37; or 40% of your income and supplies you a stick of gum in return. That isn't enough! They now want to place the polar bear on an endangered list so they can manipulate the system to crush the life out of the economy and then subjugate us to a UN tax for the same damned purpose.

The most expensive item on your list of liabilities is government and it wants to triple size, services and suck!

Consider health care. The complaint is that not every one can afford health INSURANCE! First, insurance is already not providing for yourself, the insurance company does it. Secondly, insurance was created to take care of catastrophic problems, not day to day medical care.

Now, do you really want the same people who handled the Katrina relief effort in charge of your medical care? You know, the ones you see at the DMV?

THIS is why I'm miffed. Because some one reduced major national conflagration and decision to nitwittery about sweeping floors or hiring some wet back to do it for you. (no one but an illegal will work as independent for $10 an hour)

If you demean my thought processes you have truly insulted me. THAT is what set me off!

[Geof]

......THIS is why I'm miffed. Because some one reduced major national conflagration and decision to nitwittery about sweeping floors or hiring some wet back to do it for you. (no one but an illegal will work as independent for $10 an hour)

If you demean my thought processes you have truly insulted me. THAT is what set me off!

Pointing out an area of disagreement is not demeaning your thought processes; if I ignored you because you were not worth debating with that would be demeaning your thought processes.

You made a generalized statement; 'you can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.' Stated in that form it is not correct; there are numerous services that you need to 'purchase' in modern society, and I use quotation marks on purchase because the taxes you pay 'purchase' the government services you receive.

Take out my 'swamping out bathrooms' and replace it with 'build my own Interstate highway system' if it makes my comment more acceptable. The point is that in our society there are a great number of services, or to phrase it in the other direction a great number of needs, that can not be provided for on an individual basis. Some form of government is needed; some form of paying for the services provided by government is needed.

I agree that these days there are a lot of bleeding heart liberal types who want the government to provide more and more services; and a lot of politicians pander to them to garner votes. How to do you propose to combat this? It is all very well to exhort people to wake up but when they have woken up what is the course of action?

[One of Many]

That is the saying but I think success is more a case of work smarter and harder. And it is not true to say I don't need to make a living; my role when I started my company was to design our products, figure out how to make them figure out how to sell them and all the other stuff to run a business; the business was me! And I have pointed this out is some posts in threads where people are asking about starting a business and things like that; to be successful you need to learn to do almost everything for running a business; to be really successful you need to know when to step back and start delegating things to employees. My role now is to design new products and new production procedures; this is what I am very good at. My employees are very good at doing the day to day stuff to run the business which bores the life out of me; that is the real difference between an entrepreneurial business owner and someone who wants the security of working for a stable company. I have read articles about starting your own business which compare what is needed at different stages with explorers, or adventurers, and farmers. A start up needs the adventurer who takes the risk and who thrives on the stimulus of risk, and this is good for the early stages of a business. However, as the business develops, with luck, it becomes less risky and starts to need the farmer who does the reliable thing day to day to keep things growing. It is very difficult for an adventurer to transform to a farmer, sometimes impossible, and often you can trace the rise and fall of a company to the fact that the adventurer could never hand over control to the farmer. I have the farmers, some of them are family members, they are in many respects much more important to the company than I am because right now if I ceased to contribute the company would continue for a long time, maybe indefinitely; if they ceased to contribute the company would grind to a halt very quickly because I do not have the ability to do it all now.

And if anyone comments that this is way off topic they will be correct and IDNGAD.

IDNGAD either. It was still an interesting read with a few mixed reactions.

My first few positions 30 some odd years ago, in Machine shop environments were working directly with owners who's MO was to daily degrade, denigrate and chump change employee contributions well after starting their working life. The nepotism in some of these places would drive the living nuts out of the less privileged and much lower paid grunts that produced the products and made the ivory tower folk all the kings ransoms and still not get ahead themselves. Being treated like an evil necessity not worthy of the wages offered and as was told on many occasions I was an owned and to remain status quo as such having no expectation from or ever question the principle authorities there. In my na&#239;vet&#233;, that really made me rethink what a crock trying to run a small business and manage people on a shoe string could become. The last straw was when my Son was born and I needed a few days off. The rash I got for that came to a head when I was told, the only reason I was there or stayed was because no one else would be dumb enough to hire me and I should be thankful for what I am getting, SEE YOU HERE TOMORROW. Not long after that, I fired them as my employer only to find myself in a similar situation repeating itself!

I have tried the entrepreneurial spirit a few times. I don't mind the risk side of it and I can handle the creative manufacturing side of it, but my honest side ends up giving away the farm to the point I cannot afford to design it, make it and sell it in large enough quantities to match the effort compared to the higher volume market sector. Secondarily, the over riding guilt of hiring a helper made me sick to think I could only afford to hire someone at minimum wage with no benefits and still take a larger portion of their productivity to grow the business and support myself at the same time. I felt like I had to operate like a thief to create the ends to my means. That again made me start to realize I'd have to change into the greedy, arrogant, bloviating small business owners attitudes, I resented.

And here today I find my career reasonably successful and very enjoyable. I have a very nice machine shop at home and cannot complain much. Life is good...... until I torture myself in forums that don't mean squat, but could offer so much more insight than rhetoric. I certainly do better elsewhere in what I have to offer to make that so.

DC

[jhowelb]

Pointing out an area of disagreement is not demeaning your thought processes; if I ignored you because you were not worth debating with that would be demeaning your thought processes.

That is exactly what you did by deflecting to an insignificant minuscule portion of a paragraph that was intended to summarize a larger topic .

Substituting the building of interstate highways (obviously out of the scope of any individual) for bathroom cleaning is another example of deflection and is an indication that you secretly know that you are astray on this and just don't want to admit it.

You didn't point out an area of disagreement, you went over the discourse with a microscope looking for anything to which you could be contrarian seemingly for no other purpose than to create a position from which you can seem superior. IE: looking down you nose at the rest of us cretins.

[Geof]

....Substituting the building of interstate highways (obviously out of the scope of any individual) for bathroom cleaning is another example of deflection and is an indication that you secretly know that you are astray on this and just don't want to admit it....

Okay I admit defeat.

[Shotout]

Mileage...<snip>

Every time there is a vacuum created that sheds' light on questionable data, they cannot move fast enough to fill it again. Much of the statements made by top officials instruct the media fronts how to make it believable and fore warned not to offer facts that detract from the cause if they want their paychecks to continue. They know the laymen cannot discern all the data in a scientific view. So they offer to paint the image what they think it means as a plausible sell. It is no longer a question mark. It is head long into resolving a premonition.

DC

By media fronts I assume you are talking about govt press agents as well as spokesmen for groups receiving grant money to specifically study what the govt wants studied. As much of a problem as I have with a govt that has an agenda with it's own people that they can't openly discuss, I can understand the latter as being a matter of not biting the hand even if wrong. I'll leave my opinions about the govt for elsewhere. My problem is with the media right now. For all the ivory tower talk that is the one that needs a little imaginative use of high explosives. This self styled branch of the people, defenders of a public trust, have gotten so far above themselves it is ludicrous. IMO, looking back at history, former current events for others here, they felt their true power over the people during the Kennedy/Nixon pres debates. Ever since then the media, NBC and now FOX are pretty blatant about it, have been trying to tell, we the unwashed masses, what to think. They receive special considerations that the public doesn't as a matter of public trust that is now misplaced. Walter Cronkite and Edward R Murrow are spinning I'm sure. The owners of these "public trusts" make money off of GW. From advertising rates based on viewer ratings to carbon credits. It is a case of the chickens fearing the guards. No other position but the ones they endorse are reasonably presented. Mr. Doom and Mr. Gloom warrant a week long propaganda session, but Mr. Cautiously Optimistic only receives an honorable mention to appear unbiased. I guess this is what G. H. Bush (whom I voted for twice) meant when he talked about a new world order. I said it before but, if we could leave this solely to the scientist to research and reach conclusions based on fact rather than political pressure we might get answers we can trust.

[jhowelb]

By media fronts I assume you are talking about govt press agents as well as spokesmen for groups receiving grant money to specifically study what the govt wants studied. As much of a problem as I have with a govt that has an agenda with it's own people that they can't openly discuss, I can understand the latter as being a matter of not biting the hand even if wrong. I'll leave my opinions about the govt for elsewhere. My problem is with the media right now. For all the ivory tower talk that is the one that needs a little imaginative use of high explosives. This self styled branch of the people, defenders of a public trust, have gotten so far above themselves it is ludicrous. IMO, looking back at history, former current events for others here, they felt their true power over the people during the Kennedy/Nixon pres debates. Ever since then the media, NBC and now FOX are pretty blatant about it, have been trying to tell, we the unwashed masses, what to think. They receive special considerations that the public doesn't as a matter of public trust that is now misplaced. Walter Cronkite and Edward R Murrow are spinning I'm sure. The owners of these "public trusts" make money off of GW. From advertising rates based on viewer ratings to carbon credits. It is a case of the chickens fearing the guards. No other position but the ones they endorse are reasonably presented. Mr. Doom and Mr. Gloom warrant a week long propaganda session, but Mr. Cautiously Optimistic only receives an honorable mention to appear unbiased. I guess this is what G. H. Bush (whom I voted for twice) meant when he talked about a new world order. I said it before but, if we could leave this solely to the scientist to research and reach conclusions based on fact rather than political pressure we might get answers we can trust.

This media you speak of has become the public relations/propaganda arm of the Democrat party.

I too voted for GWB as the lesser of the evils, and now again we are faced with a choice of the lesser of. On almost every front he has been a disappointment, but it could have been worse. Take Arnold for instance. There is a real RINO! Only marginally better than the one we put him in to replace.

Just leaving this matter to the scientists won't get it, the public funding for this research must be pulled from the field to see the true value of the research. If not for the govt. slop trough these pigs would be foraging else where. (reference back to that WORTHLESS post about pigs)

[the4thseal]

leave a matter for the scientists.......oh please ,,,,,i have worked with too many to leave anything in their hands, that i care about; though they think we should.

[One of Many]

By media fronts I assume you are talking about govt press agents as well as spokesmen for groups receiving grant money to specifically study what the govt wants studied. As much of a problem as I have with a govt that has an agenda with it's own people that they can't openly discuss, I can understand the latter as being a matter of not biting the hand even if wrong. I'll leave my opinions about the govt for elsewhere. My problem is with the media right now. For all the ivory tower talk that is the one that needs a little imaginative use of high explosives. This self styled branch of the people, defenders of a public trust, have gotten so far above themselves it is ludicrous. IMO, looking back at history, former current events for others here, they felt their true power over the people during the Kennedy/Nixon pres debates. Ever since then the media, NBC and now FOX are pretty blatant about it, have been trying to tell, we the unwashed masses, what to think. They receive special considerations that the public doesn't as a matter of public trust that is now misplaced. Walter Cronkite and Edward R Murrow are spinning I'm sure. The owners of these "public trusts" make money off of GW. From advertising rates based on viewer ratings to carbon credits. It is a case of the chickens fearing the guards. No other position but the ones they endorse are reasonably presented. Mr. Doom and Mr. Gloom warrant a week long propaganda session, but Mr. Cautiously Optimistic only receives an honorable mention to appear unbiased. I guess this is what G. H. Bush (whom I voted for twice) meant when he talked about a new world order. I said it before but, if we could leave this solely to the scientist to research and reach conclusions based on fact rather than political pressure we might get answers we can trust.

Pretty much, anyone that has a positive economic stake in the GW agenda will follow suit. The issue just needs to be placed in the right light to alter public perception. Cronkite and Murrow knew that and used their positions to tilt public opinion on many issues. Mainly the VN war to our national detriment. They were trusted sources on a mission and ever since then, the media knows no bounds to the power of influence. Blatant propaganda films from the likes of Moore and Gore take a story line and match that up with images that have no connection to provoke emotion and illusions that they know of what they speak. Half truths working to their advantage become the foundation of history when the whole truth is long dead and buried. Even your local news uses archived file videos matched up with unrelated events to inflate a segments drama. I think it is dead wrong not to have something in view that makes it obvious the video and audio are unrelated and may unfairly draw a false conclusion.

I think We the conservative base that put this bunch in office have lost confidence in electable public trust. There doesn't seem to be as much support for the current crop. The left has had a long wait and that drives their enthusiasm with much greater numbers in support. When any party becomes disillusioned by their own leaders, the support falls and darn near hands the other side a victory.

The latest "economic stimulus package" seems to be a proverbial hanky to blow your nose into and wipe your eyes of tears psychologically propping up the dollar. I was surprised to see the market respond, but they have been trained too. If inflation is at around 7%, that means my salary loss 7% is less. The rebate covers only about 1/3 of the loss and the funding may be borrowed from China? The tax man doesn't have enough to cover current debt, let alone a rebate. The real shock is the bipartisan support for what amounts to a welfare redistribution. Talk about ludicrous! Everyone best hold onto that rebate until after the next election and the economy turns around. I'd bet they want it all back x3 with interest! They no longer serve us, we serve them!

I'd want to know which scientist are in what pocket before I'd give them any credibility. Especially when there are some that get blackballed for not conforming on a united front.

Interesting stuff to ponder,

DC

[jhowelb]

The issue just needs to be placed in the right light to alter public perception. Cronkite and Murrow knew that and used their positions to tilt public opinion on many issues. Mainly the VN war to our national detriment. They were trusted sources on a mission and ever since then, the media knows no bounds to the power of influence.

That's the #1 reason Fox News rocketed to the top of the heap being the only source of news to include at least some of the conservative view point and it is the reason those on the left and all the rest of the media hate them.

With the three legged stool of Talk radio, internet and Fox they no longer have a choke hold on communications. Big Brother's hold has been broken!

[martinw]

[QUOTE=jhowelb;399773]That's the #1 reason Fox News rocketed to the top of the heap being the only source of news to include at least some of the conservative view point and it is the reason those on the left and all the rest of the media hate them.

QUOTE]

Dear jhowelb,

I'm not familiar with Fox News, but , when it comes to news reporting, I recently discovered why the French have an entirely relaxed attitude to almost everything...

http://www.ryoni.com/babes/melissa_theuriau.html

CNCAdmin may object .LOL.

Best wishes,

Martin