[Stewbaru]

Hi All,

I am new to the forum, and new to CNC in general.
I am cad based drafting with basic CNC orgrammng skills and I will be setting up a workshop at home. I am looking for a 4 axis machine, for working aluminium, and steel to 1/4" with a 1/16" cut.

Currently in Australia, I reckon I have two choices of Mill:-
1. The Taig - http://www.taig.com.au/index.php?mai...roducts_id=429
2. X4 Plus - http://www.syil.com.au/product_X4Plus.php

It looks like the X4 has more whistles and bells , is this a good thing?

NB: The taig I can get for about $4.5K (5.1K with 4th axis)

Do any of you use either of these?
Which is the better start-up machine, pros - cons?
Any advice you can offer is appreciated....

Thx in adv,

Stew.

[Adamj12b]

Just a quick piece of advice, Get the largest machine you can afford. I Bought an X2 and am wishing that I bought the X3. The X4 is quite a bit larger then the Taig, And I dont think that you would regret it. I know that I wouldn't. Just my 2 cents. -Adam

[Stepper Monkey]

Two things I can add;

First, you should be able to find a complete Taig setup for closer to half that amount, if not over there then shipped in from the US. There are good and bad ways to do it as regards reducing/eliminating the duty, if you need help with that we can advise.

Second, Even though they have comparable cutting areas, the X4 is a HELL of a lot bigger, heavier and more capable of bigger cuts than a Taig, so if you can afford it just go that route unless you really know you'll only ever be doing lighter workpieces or you require the compactness and/or portability.

[philbur]

Biggest is best has to be qualified.

The Taig has a spindle sped of 11,000 rpm the X4 3,200 rpm. This will make a big difference if you are using lots of small diameter cutters.

Phil

Just a quick piece of advice, Get the largest machine you can afford. I Bought an X2 and am wishing that I bought the X3. The X4 is quite a bit larger then the Taig, And I dont think that you would regret it. I know that I wouldn't. Just my 2 cents. -Adam

[Stewbaru]

Biggest is best has to be qualified.

The Taig has a spindle sped of 11,000 rpm the X4 3,200 rpm. This will make a big difference if you are using lots of small diameter cutters.

Phil

Phil, you mean the Taig's higher speed will be better for smaller radii and fillets?


Stepper, "reducing or eliminating duty"? means what to me and a taig?

Sorry to be a newbie, but I am....

[Stepper Monkey]

Phil, you mean the Taig's higher speed will be better for smaller radii and fillets?

Higher speed means you can use smaller cutting tools for detail work, circuit boards, modeling, engraving, etc. Things a big mill can't really do well. Proper RPM and feedrates for tools are very important, and one of the defining features of small tools are very much higher speeds they have to spin at. If you are planning on using, say, 3/8" or 1/2" diameter mills to really remove material you will be using the slow spindle speed ranges of the heavier machines.
To run smaller bits, especially 1/8" and below, you absolutely need much faster spindle RPM's and a very much lighter headstock and lower mass of a smaller machine.

Some people, generally those who never cut small parts, will say that you can cut a small part on a big machine but you can't cut a big part on a small machine. That is only about half right.

To cut small parts at all effectively you really do have to use a light machine.

Cutting really heavy materials on a Taig is slow and time consuming, and with mixed results. It really excels at very light to medium work.
Cutting small, fine detail work on an X4 is frustrating and expensive at best, and also with mixed results. It really excels at medium to heavy work.

You need to define what you are going to be doing to determine the best machine to use.

Stepper, "reducing or eliminating duty"? means what to me and a taig?

Duty - as in tariffs or import taxes or whatever you call them. Depending on how something is categorized you can get hit for a little or a lot, and sometimes nothing at all. If you don't know the right bureaucratic numbering nonsense to put on the package they can want an arm and a leg in taxes when you go to pick it up!

[philbur]

So Stew now Stepper has brought us to the question you should have asked yourself in the first place. What am I going to use it for.

A 14 lb sledge hammer is good for breaking rocks. A 4 oz pin hammer is good for cabinet work. Each is not very good at the other. Before you pick the tool analyse the job.

Phil

Higher speed means you can use smaller cutting tools for detail work, circuit boards, modeling, engraving, etc. Things a big mill can't really do well. Proper RPM and feedrates for tools are very important, and one of the defining features of small tools are very much higher speeds they have to spin at. If you are planning on using, say, 3/8" or 1/2" diameter mills to really remove material you will be using the slow spindle speed ranges of the heavier machines.
To run smaller bits, especially 1/8" and below, you absolutely need much faster spindle RPM's and a very much lighter headstock and lower mass of a smaller machine.

Some people, generally those who never cut small parts, will say that you can cut a small part on a big machine but you can't cut a big part on a small machine. That is only about half right.

To cut small parts at all effectively you really do have to use a light machine.

Cutting really heavy materials on a Taig is slow and time consuming, and with mixed results. It really excels at very light to medium work.
Cutting small, fine detail work on an X4 is frustrating and expensive at best, and also with mixed results. It really excels at medium to heavy work.

You need to define what you are going to be doing to determine the best machine to use.



Duty - as in tariffs or import taxes or whatever you call them. Depending on how something is categorized you can get hit for a little or a lot, and sometimes nothing at all. If you don't know the right bureaucratic numbering nonsense to put on the package they can want an arm and a leg in taxes when you go to pick it up!

[ToolMach_Aust]

Stepper...

The X4 can also do very light work with great accuracy .. it does have Double ball nuts.

The X4 can travel at around 6000mm/min with accuracy of 0.01mm or better... a lot of people are adding a High Speed spindle to the X4 to do the high speed machining you are talking about.. with a HS spindle on the X4 you can do everything and more than smaller lighter machines... Smaller machines are really only good for plastics or other soft material.

The point is it is comparing Apples to Oranges...

cheers

Frans

Higher speed means you can use smaller cutting tools for detail work, circuit boards, modeling, engraving, etc. Things a big mill can't really do well. Proper RPM and feedrates for tools are very important, and one of the defining features of small tools are very much higher speeds they have to spin at. If you are planning on using, say, 3/8" or 1/2" diameter mills to really remove material you will be using the slow spindle speed ranges of the heavier machines.
To run smaller bits, especially 1/8" and below, you absolutely need much faster spindle RPM's and a very much lighter headstock and lower mass of a smaller machine.

Some people, generally those who never cut small parts, will say that you can cut a small part on a big machine but you can't cut a big part on a small machine. That is only about half right.

To cut small parts at all effectively you really do have to use a light machine.

Cutting really heavy materials on a Taig is slow and time consuming, and with mixed results. It really excels at very light to medium work.
Cutting small, fine detail work on an X4 is frustrating and expensive at best, and also with mixed results. It really excels at medium to heavy work.

You need to define what you are going to be doing to determine the best machine to use.



Duty - as in tariffs or import taxes or whatever you call them. Depending on how something is categorized you can get hit for a little or a lot, and sometimes nothing at all. If you don't know the right bureaucratic numbering nonsense to put on the package they can want an arm and a leg in taxes when you go to pick it up!

[under-dog]

Biggest is best has to be qualified.

The Taig has a spindle sped of 11,000 rpm the X4 3,200 rpm. This will make a big difference if you are using lots of small diameter cutters.

Phil

I agree. Bigger is better is a loaded answer. It all depends on a few things:

1)What you are looking to do with it(size of parts, material being cut, one off parts or production level cutting, etc.....)
2)How much space you have
3)How much you are looking to spend


For me as an example: I make mostly jewerly, smaller parts and the occasional small aluminum part(usually tooling).

For me the taig offers more than enough space. 99% too much. It has adequate speed accuracy etc. It takes up a small space and is easy to work with.



Keep in mind also that when you go "bigger" that usually means everything gets bigger. Tooling, accessories etc. So sometmes even if you get a larger cheaper mill you may get killed on the back end with tooling it up.


If the bigger is better theory was sound we would all be driving big SUV's or even worse tractor trailer trucks.


You neeed to determine what will meet 95% of your needs and begin to narrow down from there.

[cjdavis618]

If the bigger is better theory was sound we would all be driving big SUV's or even worse tractor trailer trucks.


You need to determine what will meet 95% of your needs and begin to narrow down from there.

I guess I am the Evil anti-green giant then. I am of the belief that good tools create good work. When I have a problem that requires a tool, sometimes even one I may only use once. I either buy it or make it. That isn't limited to hand tools and CNC either. That goes with vehicles, tractors, even up to Bull dozers and Ditchwitch diggers. Even though I may never need to build a house, I have to tools to do it and I will not depend on anyone else.

Alot of folks would call me wasteful.... until I have something they need. I prefer to call it "Persistence in capability"

Us redneck, bucktooth southerners learned along time ago that most often, we are on our own to solve problems. So we do it, in the best way that was possible, with as much pride as we care to give.

I'm a person that has a need for all of the tools I have. You won't catch me in a Toyota prius, needing to rent a truck so I can move a large box. In fact, This week, I'm trading in my F150 for an F250 diesel. Just so I can move some metalwork equipment around. With the mindset that I will need the extra towing power to get more (and bigger) equipment home from around the country.

[jalessi]

Gentleman,

You know the computer manufactures prey on consumers with the promise of future need or instilling fear, they try selling faster machines that have new technology that is not even implemented in real world applications. They make a point to hype "the old slower machine might not be able to run the new game or software." This sales technique keeps consumers in a spending cycle!

No doubt the larger industrial CNC machines that have been mentioned are far superior to the Taig, however there is a big cost differential that might be factor for a home hobbyist.

Sure you can retrofit a old industrial CNC machine with the right tools and knowledge however the little tiny Taig is only $1,500.00 Turn Key ready to run.

If it will make what you need even taking twice as long, why on earth would someone that does not have lots of extra cash spend $5,500.00 on a Syil X4 or more for a "hobby" one time RC model project?

Making one or two parts at home and spending an additional $4,000 ?

Five thousand dollars is a years grocery bill for a lot of families here in the U.S.A.

Are you talking about a business machine where there is a "ROI" return on investment?

If you have a demand for parts on a production level, the requirements are much different. Each machine is expected to make xyz dollars per hour and the biggest baddest mofo is king.

Being green might not be a issue if you have extra money to burn, the little baby Taig consumes 1/10 of the power that a large production machine requires.

The big Industrial machines are extremely capable and far superior to a little baby Taig, no one in there right mind would challenge that.

Some of us would like to save money because its only within our means and still be able to enjoy our hobby.

The saying "there is a lid for every garbage can" has some validity.

Jeff Alessi

[under-dog]

I guess I am the Evil anti-green giant then. I am of the belief that good tools create good work. When I have a problem that requires a tool, sometimes even one I may only use once. I either buy it or make it. That isn't limited to hand tools and CNC either. That goes with vehicles, tractors, even up to Bull dozers and Ditchwitch diggers. Even though I may never need to build a house, I have to tools to do it and I will not depend on anyone else.

Alot of folks would call me wasteful.... until I have something they need. I prefer to call it "Persistence in capability"

Us redneck, bucktooth southerners learned along time ago that most often, we are on our own to solve problems. So we do it, in the best way that was possible, with as much pride as we care to give.

I'm a person that has a need for all of the tools I have. You won't catch me in a Toyota prius, needing to rent a truck so I can move a large box. In fact, This week, I'm trading in my F150 for an F250 diesel. Just so I can move some metalwork equipment around. With the mindset that I will need the extra towing power to get more (and bigger) equipment home from around the country.

CJ,

Thank you for agreeing with me. That was my point exactly. You have needs that dictate you needing larger equipment, and a larger truck. Whether they are immediate needs or anticipated. I too am the same way but there are limitations. Am I going to buy a full size backhoe because i need to plant one tree in my back yard or remove a rock? No

I neither have the cash flow, the space nor the desire to do something of that nature. You may come back and say: well all you need to do is get a bigger yard and house and a bigger job to support the bigger toy habit and while your at it bigger needs to justify it. As I said not in the cards. Maybe you have some career advice to support this sort of initiative.

But I just replaced my old standard cab dodge with a new pickup to meet a new need. When I bought the dodge it was for doing work around the house and getting me back and forth to work. Thats all it was just me and my wife no dog kids or camper. I now have 2 kids now and a 24 foot trailer camper. My new needs required this: fit 4 people and dog comfortably plus gear and towing a somewhat sizable camper.

The truck I have now would have been over kill 6 years ago and would have sucked more gas----->money out of my pocket and all the extra cab space(there only just in case I might need it need it in my unforseen future) would have merely become a depository for crap and and unecissary an area to keep clean and maintain. Like I said the need changed and so did the tool to fill that need.


I have written another response to someone elses reply and if you notice in that response I made a statement just as I will do here. My origional post had no relation to criticism of buying a larger machine if the need is there. it was a :
1) critique of my experience with the taig
2) Logical advice with regards to how to determine what he needs for a machine.

If you hold true to this theory that you buy a tool even if you need it only once or think you might need it some day. Then you should own a taig too. The taig is designed specifically to work on smaller parts and not larger ones. Then wouldnt this make it a specific tool for a specific task. And the you have the x4 for making bigger parts.

I am sorry I bruised you ego with my origional post.

And sorry for this post but it was necissary as your response was fairly sharp tongued for no reason, yet had literally nothing to do with:

1: the origional post topic
2: the point that was being made in "my" origional response (It was an analogy to demonstrate a point and not an attack on anyone who drives something larger than a prius nor against someone who buys tools to fulfill a need) I could have used the "why use a samurai sword to peel apples when a knife will work.......? analogy to make the same point.


I suppose I just offended all the apple growers and samurais here on CNC zone
"I would like to offer an official apology now to these two cultures, which I both respect and admire"

[Stepper Monkey]

Since it is for fun and therefore production speed isn't critical, you could get away with either one just fine. While both can do the jobs you describe, it sounds like the X4 is the best suited to your needs by far given a choice of the two as it has the power for not only doing it faster but offers a lot of other extra capability as well.

If you want to do any stuff with wheels you will absolutely need a rotary table. You won't necessarily need a big or expensive one, but you will need one.

[tikka308]

fellas... c'mon.

[hoss2006]

Here's a simple solution, post a video of your taig making some part that

Physics make it impossible

for the X4 to handle along
with the Gcode and the tech specs for feed/speed, material and tooling
so that an X4 owner can duplicate it and show all that, as usual,
you are just talking out of your *ss.
We don't need to read your thesis on why something should be true on paper.
Real world results matter, put up or shut up.
Stick to Geology, skiing and jewelry Harry, leave the machining advice
to those of us that are actually experienced professionals with real equipment or
enthusiastic hobbyists that are savvy enough to share their ideas with pics and videos.

[The Blight]

Stepper Monkey: Is it actually facts or just your own experience?

Instead of throwing crap back, just post your arguements. I'm interesting in hearing what you have to say.

[highspeedmazak]

Ok dont even compare a tiag to a x4 that is not fair at all to the tiag that is smaller less rigid slower and not to mention the comparison of mass weight. both can be great machines for what they are used for and lets get this streight I engrave .02 size words on SS at work all the time on a Mazak 410 at super high speeds and I am more then sure it will do way more then any smaller mill considering it holds .0001 all the time. consider all of the facts. you dont compare a car to a bus.

[praetor]

Stepper Monkey, those were really harsh words. I have to agree with cjdavis618..we could've done with out the unnecessary remarks. The discussion/argument was enough to get our attention...but then again, now it gives us an insight of the kind of person you are.

Hoss I want to apologize for what Stepper Monkey said, trying to point out the kind of person you are via insult certainly proved that dumbassitus is a real disease. As I said what he said only served to point out the type of person HE really is.

And anyone with half a brain knows just mentioning a taig and an X4 in the same sentence is in itself a scrimmage...to use a sports vanacular.

"It is better to have people believe your stupid, then to open your mouth and have them remove all doubt"

-Samual Clemons (...Mark Twain, Stepper Monkey. Just in case.)

Hoss we still believe in your experience which is where knowlegde is borne

"Imagination is more important than knowledge"

-Albert Einstein...and to think, Stepper Monkey, old Al here failed math earlier on in his life.(wedge)

[Stepper Monkey]

I don't think this has anything to do with a Taig being compared to an X4. Thats how the thread started, not what got Hoss's panties in a bunch. RTFA.
The statement that caused all the problem was I simply pointed out that as a concept there are definite valid engineering reasons for smaller machines, and offered to go into depth. That is what isn't being accepted here, (that and mainly someone claiming to have some information Hoss doesn't.) That always puts him into a murderous frenzy, usually followed by another infamous "green-eyed monster" rant about how anyone who disagrees with him is simply jealous of his grand intelligence. It is always easier to reject ideas than try to understand them.

Hoss truly seems to enjoy trying to single-handedly live up to the expected negative stereotypes of the place he lives. There isn't anything wrong with his town, mainly him.
Seriously, political correctness aside, when you live in a small rural West Virginia town, and the townsfolk THERE think you are an ignorant xenophobic obnoxious SOB redneck giving them a bad name, that says something. Just saying.

Since it has been clearly pointed out that that any theory is right out as a form of acceptable discourse, as well as most likely by extension information from anyone who went to college if I remember Hoss's animosities there, bringing the discussion down to his level of easily attacked and unprovable anecdotal evidence simply allows him to mindlessly bash or reject it ad nauseam.
That would go nowhere REAL fast.

So I have a different solution that is win/win.

Hoss can simply believe that I and every engineer who ever designed a system unlike his is a screaming moron with nothing to say, and we will simply happily continue to cut items he can't dream of. For some reason, I have no problem with that solution.

[acondit]

The statement that caused all the problem was I simply pointed out that as a concept there are definite valid engineering reasons for smaller machines, and offered to go into depth. That is what isn't being accepted here, (that and mainly someone claiming to have some information Hoss doesn't.)

Please, instead of ranting about how your reasoning isn't being accepted, just share what you consider to be the valid engineering reasons. I for one can make no judgment on your reasoning (for or against) until you share it. We might learn something and who knows, we might even be in general agreement.

Alan