[ronncat]

A few months ago I decided to take up a new hobby...Metalworking!!!..So I starting surfing the net to try to gather up as much info as possible before divng in. That's how I came upon CNCZone. Since I had no aspirations of CNCing anything at that time, the site was useful to me only in the basics that I could gleam from it.

I started out by purchasing a mini-lathe and promptly begin turning a couple of handles.. and then a few more handles. Got pretty decent at it. My wife started calling the lathe the "handle machine".

Then I began to think that I wanted to make other stuff. Who knows what, but a mill was definitely needed to do so. In reality this was just an excuse to buy another machine. So I picked up the venerable Harbour Freight X3 and carted it home. To this point I have dismantled it, thoroughly cleaned it and then reassembled it on top of the tool chest where it will reside. It's a lot easier to lift 50 lbs several times than 300 all at once!

Still haven't milled my first piece yet. I had added a DRO to my lathe and thought that it was pretty slick so I figured I would do the same for the mill plus a power feed. Well then I began thinking that it wouldn't be much more to just CNC this thing instead. So back to CNCZone where I started to read up as much as I could on the subject. Teyber's build thread was especially informative. Based on my readings, I was about to pull the trigger on the CNCFusion kit when I happened across the Promica website. I was intrigued by what I felt looked like a clean, nicely designed conversion kit. Unfortunately, there is not a great deal of info online for this kit...very few mentions on CNCZone. I ended up posting a few questions on the Promica web site. BAM!!! They were answered immediately. I then began a weekend session of back and forth emails with Marc Huett of Promica. At the end of the weekend I was convinced the Promica kit was the way for me to go.

So I ordered from Promica and am awaiting the conversion kit. I ordered the basic conversion as well as stepper motors and wiring. I did not order the Promica controller box as I thought I should do some of the work. The stepper motors are Nema 23 size rated for 3 amps on all three axis. The Promica controller supplies 40V. This seemed perfect for incorporating the Gecko G540. So I ordered the Gecko, an 50V/10A unregulated power supply, a5V/2A power supply and a few misc. items from Keling. Then ordered a 12" X 12" X 5" box from LMB to house it.

Next I decided I need to build ways covers. I will be making a denim cover for the Y axis and use a rubber cover from Little Machine Shop for the Z axis. Lastly, I am planning a coolant system loosely based on the Fogbuster. I have acquired all the bits and pieces to build all these accesories, I just need to find the time.

Anyhow, I decided that if I were to document this build that it might be helpful to others on the forum. I don't intend to go into minute detail, and I won't be posting pictures of every step. (You only need to see so many pics of an uncrated X3 before you start to know what a wood box looks like) Being so green at this hobby, I would invite everyone to critique my decisions along the way and point me in the right direction when I start to deviate . I have licensed copies of both Dophin Cadcam and Mach3 and have been playing with them in my spare time. My first problem was adding a parallel port to an unused Dell Dimension E510. Went to Frys and bought a PCI card w/parallel port. XP failed to discover the port. Have ordered another card which people claims has better success. Anyhow, Thanks and wish me luck on the build.:banana:

[Crevice Reamer]

Hi Ron. Welcome to the Zone!

Here's the link for Promica:

http://www.cnckits.com.au/product_mx3.php

Firstly, I definitely like the way they have mounted the motors. This is the way I would design a kit. However, I see serious deficiencies in the way they have implemented it.

1. Motors: 270 oz is too small to properly drive the X3 axes. They compensate by gearing down the motor, but that just really limits rapid speeds to a ridiculous level. WOW! 1500 mm per minute? thats just 59 IPM--Very slow.

2. The Z will be WOEFULLY underpowered with the 270. The X3 Z needs at LEAST a 640 oz N34. You will probably be able to watch paint dry faster than your Z will move up and down.

3. This kit seems to be very expensive.

At the very least, cancel your motor order and see if they will supply a N34 Z mount and 1:1 pulleys/belts for X/Y. Maybe they can also supply the N34 1.23:1 1/2 inch bore pulley/belt for Z.

This is the electronics I would recommend.

$289 G540 This IS a deluxe, advanced features breakout board also.
$098 Keling KL23H2100-35-4B 381 oz motors for X and Y
$099 Keling KL34H295-43-8A 906 oz N34 motor for Z (Detunes to 520 oz W/G540. Changing Z pulley to 1.23:1 = 640 Oz)
$060 Keling KL-350-48 48V/7.3A PSU. (This will handle 3 motors. 4th axis may need more amps.)
$014 pulley https://sdp-si.com/eStore/PartDetail...52&GroupID=217
---------
$560

http://kelinginc.net/

This will give upwards of 150 IPM on all axes.

CR.

[ronncat]

Wow,
Thanks for the quick reply! I see you were very instrumental in helping Teyber with his build and hopefully also with mine. Unfortunately, I accidentally erased my original post before I had a chance to submit it. A couple hours of work down the drain with a push of the button. The original post was more dissertation-like and went into much greater detail (including concerns about powering the axis) and even had a couple of photos. Just needed to pound out the redo thread before I left for work this morning.

Anyhow, I will build the kit first as supplied and then make any necessary changes to achieve the results that I would like to see. In that way, I will be able to give everyone a feel for the stock kit. Perhaps Marc will work with me if changes are needed at a later time. Luckily, funding this project is not too big of an issue and if I need to purchase a few hundred $$ of parts to optimize things it won't put me in the poorhouse. I don't however want to start throwing away money uselessly. That would be plain stupid.

I look forward to embarking on this project. I'll post the start pics of the mill on the stand and it's mini-lathe little brother when I get home to my laptop.

Ron

[Crevice Reamer]

Ah. All CNCrs have to decide whether their hobby is making chips or making/improving machines. I usually try to facilitate the former. You have apparently chosen the latter. This is harder and more expensive, but how we advance our knowledge.

Kudos! I look forward to reading about your pioneering efforts.

CR.

[Teyber12]

can't wait to see what you do mate! that kit looks really high quality. I think you will find that once you start using the machine, you will realize you don't need all the stuff you think you want by reading around the forums.

60ipm isn't quick but isn't unbearably slow.

cheers

[ronncat]

Thanks for the encouragement Teyber. I give you props for showing me the way. Here is the picture of my X3 mounted and ready for conversion. And it's little brother...the Handle machine.

[mhuett]

Hello All

Firstly let me identify myself as 'Marc' - the owner of PROMiCA ...


Not sure where we get 1500mm/min from - the web site says 2100mm/min or a little over 82"/min... The system will run at 4000mm/min (157"/min) - I rate them with 50% overhead to be on the safe side. It will largely come down to how tight you set up the machine ...

I used to offer 470oz motors with 1:1 but decided to drop them as the benefit was virtually zero. The larger motor had more power but was not capable of the same speed (rpm) .. most likely due to internal inertia. Bigger does not always equal better ... (put a 454 Corvette up against a 4cyl F1 and see who's quicker... design & tuning).

The gearing employed between the stepper and leadscrew is not there to alter available torque (although that's a side benefit) - it is to get the motors into their 'sweet spot' for the majority of the working time. That's a little of the 'design' coming into play ...

Getting back to rapids. I set up my toolpaths to keep the tool in the job as much as possible. Z moves account for maybe 5% of the total job usually and rapids are probably much the same. Running a Streakers 10mm (3/8) at 2800 rpm I usually cut at 1200mm/min (47"/min). THE SINGLE biggest limiting factor in any of these machines/converions is the spindle speed ... so no matter if your rapids are 80"/min or 8000"/min you are still limited to cutting at 47'ish (depends on tool, type of stock, chipload etc). Rapids make up very little of the overall job and end up having negligible effect on the total run time. Worrying about breaking speed records is really just being silly....

Lets pretend we have a job that takes 60mins of 'tool in work' time. Rapids and Z moves add 10% to that for me on average... so we're now at 66mins for the total job. If another machine is capable of 2x the rapid/Z speeds then the total job time would be 63mins ... is it really worth hundreds of dollars more (bigger motors & controller) for a relatively small gain if any??? Most Z moves lift the tool up and out of the way in about 1 second for me (oh but only if I could make that 0.5 seconds ).... so who really cares if it takes a few seconds longer to get from the very top to the very bottom!!

I offer the kits in 3 'levels' ... H, HM & HMC .. being Hardware, Hardware & Motors, Hardware Motors & Controller.

The idea is to give people a choice ... you want to use massive steppers then we'll help you with just the hardware to do it. If you already have a controller then we can help with the hardware and motors ... you want the lot (or dont want an ugly patchwork of modules) then we can help there too.

Some people thrive on the challenge of souring their parts from multiple suppliers and hoping it will all work (or relying on forums to guide them). Others have no idea about any of it and just want to make stuff!! Others yet again like the idea of stringing half a dozen bits together to make their PC talk to the motors and are compitent enough to manage the associate birds nest of wiring ... or you can buy it all in one neat & tidy box .... its all about choice.

If you want a reliable well built system that can cut at the same speed as anything else out there (using the same machine) then come and see us... If you haven't heard of PROMiCA it isn't due to our customers not being here on CNCZone ... it's becasue they are the ones asking questions about 'how to make various styles of chips' ... not 'how do I get my machine to work'!!


'Pioneering efforts' ???? ... even though our system was on the market before Syil and has been designed as a integrated package from the ground up I can see how you would consider this 'pioneering' ...

For some people it's the journey .. for others it's the destination.

Our commitment to customers doesn't end when they give us money and we give them a product. I have many customers who call me just for a chat or email me to ask about the best way to approach a given job or to simply ask how to set up toolpaths to make multiple parts from the one piece of code. The point is that we are here and want to help wherever we can. The 'customer quotes' on our web site are all real and I can produce the emails to prove it ... they are also completely unsollicited (ie we didn't ask for them).

Sorry Ron ... don't mean to hijack your thread ... this is the one and only post I will do (which makes it about the third one on CNCZone in 4 years!!). I look forward to seeing you post your finding/progress... other than that I'll keep quiet.


Marc

[Teyber12]

great post! thanks for clearing things up. It looks like you guys offer a great kit.

cheers

[Crevice Reamer]

Hi Marc. Sorry to come off so negative about your wonderful kit.

I got the 1500mm from the details HERE:

Due to the gearing ratio we employ in our kits we effectively double the motors rated power. This coupled with quality Thomson 5tpi leadscrews and high efficiency ball nuts means that you can easily achieve 1500mm/min - and that's being conservative!!.

I guess I didn't read further to see that you think it can go a max of 3000mm/min--or a whopping 118 IPM. And the specs do list it as 2100 mm/min.

We'll have to disagree about the motors though. It's not the inertia that slows the larger motors, but the higher inductance, which needs higher voltage to overcome.

The 495s need 85V to reach their best speed. If you were running THEM at 40V, (Undervolted by more than half) then of course they would perform poorly.

Some Keling 381s (53V motors) belted 1:1 and run at 50V with the G540 might really surprise you with their performance.

And the Z axis DOES need more power than a N23 to perform well. You may not think Z speed is important. It normally isn't--But if you are using a passive ATC, a slow Z speed will really become a weak link in production time.

CR.

[hoss2006]

Great post Marc, just what this community needs, well thought out professionally designed kits.:cheers:
You should add an RF-45 kit to the inventory.
One note on ATC's, Z rapids in excess of 60 IPM would only lead to constant crashes.
You'd be surprised how fast that looks when the head is going in to grab a tool.
You have to allow some wiggle room in the toolrack or the tools will bind.
The collet for the TTS doesn't open very much and you can't force the collet onto the tool
or it will bind as well. Going too fast doesn't give it time to find the tool.
Hoss

[ronncat]

Thanks to everyone for chiming in.

You can see from Marc's informative and eloquent reply why I chose to go the Promica route. Marc was not just pounding keys for his post here and likewise his email responses to me have been similarly detailed and well thought out. If I have a question, not only has he supplied the answer, but also his reasoning behind the answer. For someone like myself who is in this hobby to learn not only how do do things, but also to discover WHY they are done, this is Golden!!

Am expecting my kit in the next couple of weeks. Leaving soon for some R&R between now and then so will not be able to do any work on my project. As always though I well be monitoring this forum

[ronncat]

My Promica kit is still a couple of weeks out. Decided to pop the back of my
X3 and start to plan how to integrate the spindle on/off and spindle speed with the Gecko G540 via Mach3.

I think that wiring a DPDT relay prior to the F/O/R switch will give me on/off control. Then the actual F/O/R switch can be wired to computer vs manual control. Next I read the voltage of the pot. The reference was 6.95V. I have read that people are starting to use the VFD output on the G540 to control spindle speed of their X2 mills. Any reason that I can't do the same for an X3? I will have to figure out how to use Mach3 to limit the VFD output to 7V. I am assuming it can be done...anyone out there try this yet?

Thanks in advance!!!

[ronncat]

Returned home from vacation and no Promica Kit yet, (Australia is a very, very far away) so I decided to start building my cooling system. My garage/shop space is very limited because it is so full of stuff from all my other hobbies and pursuits. Therefore, I decided early on that all of my machines would have to be portable so I could wheel them into place when I needed to use them. This ruled out the use of flood as this would require a large immovable enclosure. Mist systems were ruled out as I didn't want a fine layer of fog settling on everything in the garage. This left the "Fogbuster" type of cooling system.

I continue to be amazed at all the info that can be sourced right here on CNCZone as well as on the internet. Before long I had gathered enough knowledge to be able to construct my own "Fogbuster" style cooling system. Set it up at 15psi and it works great. Can regulate coolant flow from a near invisible stream to a very wet spray...no mist. The airflow from the tip should be plenty to clear chips. Posting some early pics of my system. Still need to devise a mounting system. Probably will adapt one of my magnetic bases. Also will be adding a solenoid valve inline between the regulator and the reservoir. This should enable Mach3 control of the cooling system.

Hope to see my Promica Kit soon. If not, maybe I'll start on the controller box!

[ronncat]

:banana:
Today was a great day! UPS brought me a package from EV Source, the U.S. distributer for PROMICA.

Opened up the box and laid everything out. Packaging was very efficient with all the parts well protected in bubble wrap. I was immediately impressed with the quality of the machining and the perfect satin finish on all the parts. No scratches, nicks or blemishes to be found anywhere. The HDPE parts were similarly beautifully machined. In the pictures, I have roughly separated the kit into the basic kit from Promica and the first upgrade which includes stepper motors, wiring, looms, and a few miscellaneous machined aluminum parts to clean up the install. I had previously downloaded from the Promica website the installation manual for the kit. It is concise and well written with illustrations and photographs to aid in the installation.

Unfortunately I won't be able to start my install for a few days. I need to use the mill to machine out the faceplate for my controller box first. As soon as I complete that I'll start installing the kit. I'll keep you posted with pictures of the progress.

[cornbinder23]

just out of curiosity how much is the "H" kit from promica I emailed them for a quote but no reply

[ronncat]

All of the kit prices are shown at this site. They are the U.S. distributor for the kit and I had to order from them.

http://www.evsource.com/tls_cnc_conversion.php

I was lucky and saved a few hundred as I got my quote prior to the latest round of price increases.

[ronncat]

Today, I made my first chips ever on a milling machine! I needed to fabricate a faceplate for my controller box. Had I CNC'd the mill first, I couldn't use the mill to make the faceplate because there would be no controller box!!! So I laid out my faceplate setups in Visio, then transferred the drawings to the aluminum plates and taught myself how to mill. Not only did I use the drilling and end mill functions, but I even got to break out my boring head to bore out the fan hole. I'll probably never need to use the boring head again after my project is done...that was one expensive hole.

Now that my "Fogbuster" style cooling system is complete and my controller box is well on it's way I finally can get started on my conversion. Finally this thread will live up to its name. If I get some time tomorrow I'll start to break the mill down and hang some parts

[Crevice Reamer]

Looking good! Nice work!

CR.

[ronncat]

Finally found the time to start converting my mill with the Promica kit. Spent a couple of hours tearing the machine down. The reason for this is my mill is bolted to a stainless top from the underside. The top is then lag bolted to the rolling tool chest from inside the chest. For me to access the Y axis nut holder I needed to get to the underside of the mill, thusly it all has to come apart.



Decided to start with the Y axis so I could build from the bottom up. This became a problem as you will find later in this post. When I flipped the base over to unbolt the Y nut, I found that it was only bolted with one bolt..and it was stripped. The second was nowhere to be found. You could see by all the scratches and torque marks on the allen head that someone knew they messed up and abandoned ship before they got the second one in. Luckily the locating pins were there, so the nut was properly aligned. A little work with a dremel and a diamond and I was able to cut a slot in the head and remove the bolt with a screwdriver. I then assembled the Promica ballscrew, ballnut and Y nut holder and bolted it in place.



Then I replaced the column and assembled the Z axis. No problems here!




Next it was on to the X axis. Everything works smoothly. One slight problem is the side plates on the table are designed to sit a half mm below the table so they won't interfere when milling large parts. On my mill, the front portion sat slightly below the table, but the rear was slighty above the table. Not a problem as I can mill off the excess at a later time. Apparently the holes are slightly askew either in the mill or the kit. (I would suspect Sieg as the culprit) The next photos show the business end of the X axis with and without the HDPE machined cover. How clean is that!!!




OK...Then I encountered my first real problem. I went to slide the table back onto the dovetail slides of the base. Lo and behold, there was about a .5mm interference between the left side of the Y axis nut holder and the inside of the dovetail. Tried for a frickin hour to wiggle it past ...gib in/gib out/beer in/beer out... to no avail. Finally gave up.



HERE IS WHY I THINK THE PROMICA KIT IS WORTH EVERY PENNY I PAID FOR IT. Fired off an email to Marc at Promica. Remember, Promica is half a world away. I laid out my problem for Marc and then went to bed. In the morning there was a reply from Marc. He basically stated that he designs in a certain amount of wiggle room so the kit can span the tolerances of most machines. Went on to explain that he tries however to keep clearances to a minimum to keep out swarf. He asked me to check some measurements and told me he would get back with me in a day or so as he was leaving town to do an install.

So I took some measurements this morning and rushed off to work. When I got there, I sat down and did some calculations. Marc wrote me that the Y axis nut holder and front piece on the table where the ball screw exits should line up. When I did my calculations, I was astounded to see that they were accurate in all respects to + or - .01mm! So now I know that the Y axis nut holder is properly located. That means that I will have to remove a mm or so from the left side of the nut holder. Unfortuately this also means removing the mill head, the column, unbolting the stainless top from the toolbox and the mill base from the top and then putting it all back together after I remove the necessary amount of metal. Oh well..no one said this was going to be quick.

[Crevice Reamer]

Hi ronncat. Sorry to hear you are having so much difficulty.

I think you have just, in this one post, completely proved my case that it's better to pay the extra money and buy a Grizzly. You are paying now, in labor & frustration, for every price discount you got from Harbor Freight.



Maybe before any more problems crop up you should load all the 400 pounds of parts into a box and return it to the store for a free warranty replacement before your 90 days are up.

Oh, wait! The second problem is not the mill at all, but a mis-made conversion kit part. Looks like either you have somhow installed that nut backwards, or somebody at ProMica made a mirror-image machining mistake.

Or could it be that you are trying to install the table backwards?

CR.