[ksanalytical]

Hello all.

I've just placed my order for a new IH turnkey and thought I'd share some critical specs that the web-site just didn't answer... My only other experience has been on a home converted, 20 year old Harbor Freight green monster which seems to have gibs made of jello so all this is a little new to me.

Optional equipment:
They now have a 3HP VFD that runs through the gear box. RPM is the same as for the 2HP, but the torque advantage should be obvious. The VFD is supposed to be suitable for rigid tapping. Anyone disagree? I'd be using a floating height tap holder since a TapMatic is a little too pricey and I don't need the speed.

NT 30 taper - I'm hoping to build an ATC eventually so I thought this made sense. Tool holders aren't too pricey from MariTool in BT30 trim... Looks like I'll be starting with a draw bar threaded for the BT30 stud hole until I build a finger or ball style draw bar. Tommy was unsure about BT30 compatibility (only knew about NMTB30), but everything I've read says all 30 taper holders would be compatible. Any thoughts? I've looked all over trying to find a replacement finger grabber from a big CNC that I could adapt, with no success.

Table extensions - Standard travel has been confirmed at 28"X, 11"Y, 22"Z. Extensions bring these up to 31"X, 13"Y, Z unaffected.

Lead time was quoted at 6 weeks minimum. Being an optimist, I'm hoping for 8... Something in the back of my mind say 12...

Two small boys at home and a nasty travel schedule for work means I can't afford to spend too much time out at the shop so this will be going into my garage. Space being at a premium, I elected to make my own stand simply so I can fine tune the height.

Can anyone provide the mounting surface to table top (and bottom) heights? How tall is your machine (from mounting surface) at max Z?

Noise might be an issue with the neighbors as I get most of my work done late at night. I could substantially improve that situation with a full enclosure, but I'd also like to know how loud the thing really is. Are the belt drive conversions considerably quieter?

I'm seriously considering a Glacern 6" premium vise ( www.glacern.com/gpv_615 ). These have ground sides for 90 degree mounting which is great, but the primary mounting method is via two sets of bolts to the table. These are spaced at 5" and I have no reference for the T-slot spacing on the table. Obviously I could use the little dogs, but I'd just like to know in advance if I need to get them on order. Can anyone provide T-slot center-to-center spacing as well as the slot size itself? I'm also a little concerned about the weight of this thing. It's 81lbs on the table. Anyone want to comment on the effect this might have on rapids or acceleration?

I'll appreciate any feedback given and will post the actual delivery date for reference on the forum. Thanks to all who've posted so much invaluable on this site!

Best regards,

Ken

[bohica]

Ken,

Congratulations! If my experience is any guide, you will be very pleased with your purchase.

A PFF is attached showing the table and slot dimensions and spacing.

I have the standard Glacern 6" vise. This one has tabs on the bottom that can be used in the slots to orient the vise. They are slightly larger than the slots so they will have to be machined down to fit into the slots.

Don't be conderned with the vise weight..you have so much power in the servos I doubt you'll notice any difference in rapids or acceleration.

I only have the stock 2 hp motor on my mill and the noise is reasonable. I'm not sure what the 3 hp VFD will be like.

[madavis]

Hey Ken,

Congratulations! The height from the bottom of the base (top of the stand) to the top of the mill table is 9.687" or 9 11/16". From the top of the stand to the top of the motor is 59 3/8". Add this dimension to your table height to get the overall height. Z travel height measurement was taken with the head at the top of the column. The z travel equaled 22.5" to the bottom of the quill. I have the standard 2 hp motor.

I just ordered the standard Glacern 6" vise.

Enjoy your new machine.

Mark

[altaic]

Hi Ken,
The NT30 and BT30 tapers are compatible, but there is less room at the top of the taper on our spindles for a finger/ball grabber. I have removed my spindle for regular maintenance, and I plan on casting the taper using silicone so I can properly measure, but I suspect the cylindrical section at the top of the taper may have to be widened slightly.

This isn't too much of a problem, as one can cut into the spindle while it's mounted and running-- since I assume it's hardened, a CBN or PCD boring bar held in a vice would be necessary to hard turn it. Someone on the zone posted a video of someone doing this (can't seem to locate it right now), and Bob Warfield also posted some pics on his site on 3/8/08 (here). I plan on doing that and fabbing a pneumatic ball grabber (I'm not sure I could make a finger one properly).

Cheers,
Will

[ksanalytical]

Thanks guys... I really appreciate your help. I hope my Glacern vise comes with the little dogs as Bob Warfields site mentioned since it looks like the table will not match the 5" spacing on the vise mounting flange... Small problems are my favorite though.

BTW: Glacern tells me they are preparing to release indexable end mills with smaller shanks like 3/4 and 5/8. No response on the time table, but I'll be first in line.

Ataic,

The smallest diameter retention stud I see is a 0.431" so I can appreciate how tight things might get in there. I've seen some posts on the ball type, but never with a great degree of success. I'll be way behind you so hopefully I'll get to watch your progress.

I see what you mean about boring the spindle and it makes perfect sense.

[Cruiser]

The spindle is probably the same material as mine, which is plain cast Iron ! Soft and easily damaged yet durable as iron should be.
I am not sure of the VFD that Tommy is providing from IH but I am sure it is chinese. IF you were to upgrade to something like the Hitachi SJ of the proper capacity of your 3 hp motor, then you could drive it at up to 120 hz and double your rpm's and also increase the settings for torque while your at It. Altho with the gear box torque will not be an issue. Just shift to a gear that is within your speed range and run it.

[Shev]

Congrats and welcome to the family. I am a new turnkey IH mill owner myself...I went with the 3hp VFD...not sure if I "needed" it but maybe it'll help the resale value if I ever get rid of it. I also ponied up for the Glacern premium 6" vise and man it's nice. I milled my vise keys to fit the slots in my table (keys are 11/16 and table slots are 5/8) Don't fret, I got the same hardware as Bob...

[altaic]

Hey Ken,
I'll definitely start a thread when I do the pneumatic drawbar. It's a ways off, though.

Actually, I'm going to start another thread about removal of the spindle pretty soon (took lots of pics). I followed Cruiser's instructions, but the newer machine spindles are apparently a bit more of a pain in the ass.

Will

[Shev]

Actually, I'm going to start another thread about removal of the spindle pretty soon (took lots of pics). I followed Cruiser's instructions, but the newer machine spindles are apparently a bit more of a pain in the ass.

Will

All you should of had to do was pull the spring stuff from the left hand side and pull the shaft/handle out the right hand side...I've got a new machine and that's all I had to do...

[altaic]

All you should of had to do was pull the spring stuff from the left hand side and pull the shaft/handle out the right hand side...I've got a new machine and that's all I had to do...

To extract the quill, yep, simple. Edit: Oh, actually, there is a set screw between the spring and quill lock that also has to be removed (which reveals another one underneath which also has to be backed off).

To extract the spindle from the quill, though, the bearings did not just slide off (to say the least) as they did on Cruiser's machine. Luckily one of the races gets pushed off by tapping the spindle out, one of the other races has screw holes to push it off, and one has holes to stick a pin in an hammer it off. That left one race in the top of the quill which was not fun at all... Since I don't have a bearing puller, some very careful tapping of a long screwdriver was necessary (didn't want to gouge the bearing seat).

There were also two spanner nuts, one on the top and one on the bottom (although the bottom one isn't really a nut since it's externally threaded). I think Cruiser only mentioned taking one at the top off, and I forget if he said his was a spanner nut or not. These things are going to be a pain to set bearing preload properly, since I don't have a specialized spanner socket to plug my torque wrench into. And my mill is obviously not operational, so I'll have to figure out how to rig a spanner socket up. It'll be interesting to see how that works out.

Will

[Shev]

Agreed..forgot about the pesky set screws on the side...I only took one out not realizing there were two and couldn't figure out why the damn thing wouldn't drop out...

What you are referring to as a second nut on the bottom is what Cruiser refers to as the cover (which he added a piece of leather to make it stop oozing grease). I don't believe it sets any kind of preload, it's there to keep crap from getting into the bottom bearing. I also agree, it's going to be nearly impossible to set proper preload seeing there is so much of a press fit of the bearings on the shaft. I'm half tempted to have the shaft turned down a bit to lighten the interference fit.

Tommy taught me a little trick to get the bearing cups out...run a bead of weld around the inside of the cup and let it cool...the weld "shrinks" the cup and they basically fall out...

Also, I did a little measuring and it appears that two 7207 angular contacts will fit on bottom of the spindle, just have to make a new spindle housing/quill...

[altaic]

What you are referring to as a second nut on the bottom is what Cruiser refers to as the cover (which he added a piece of leather to make it stop oozing grease). I don't believe it sets any kind of preload, it's there to keep crap from getting into the bottom bearing. I also agree, it's going to be nearly impossible to set proper preload seeing there is so much of a press fit of the bearings on the shaft. I'm half tempted to have the shaft turned down a bit to lighten the interference fit.

I think I've got a solution to the tight fit of the upper spindle bearing seat. I bought a 30mm oversized (+7 to +22 micron) hardened drill bushing from McMaster Carr for something like $20, and I'm going to use 1000 grit (5 micron) to 600 grit (14 micron) lapping compound on it to see if I can get a nice and tight sliding fit for the race.

Tommy taught me a little trick to get the bearing cups out...run a bead of weld around the inside of the cup and let it cool...the weld "shrinks" the cup and they basically fall out...

Cool trick!

Also, I did a little measuring and it appears that two 7207 angular contacts will fit on bottom of the spindle, just have to make a new spindle housing/quill...

Yeah, I noticed that. Given that the angular contact bearings are rated for less load than the tapered roller bearings, I was thinking it'd be nice to have two sets on there. I hope the ones I got (SKF 7206-BEP and 7207-BEP) will handle the load.

Will

[Cruiser]

The nut at top of mine is a spanner nut too. With the tapered roller bearings, Just had to run them up to zero play and give it one more notch to line up the lock tab. With the Angular contacts, I started with one notch, run and tested spindle by grabbing the lower end and gently shaking it, if it shakes or wiggles then you need more preload at the top nut. Mine became solid and still is with three notches past hand tight. I used a piece of key stock to tap the nut to where I wanted it, a spanner is not really needed although it would be handy.
If you are a tad loose with the angular's there is a higher chance to damage the bearings in use. If you are a tad tight, They will most likely be just fine, I took mine to only what was needed to compensate for any seating of the bearings, and the thermal expansions within the quil and with spindle ! With the loads involved with speeds, and side loading during cuts, as well the occasional brain farts, set as I mention above will serve you fine.
The biggest concern involved with this project is the Grease ! Don't use general automotive axle or bearing grease, it is stabilized enough to run in a horizontal channel, melt and run with the bearing. You want a quality spindle grease which is stabilized more so it will cling to bearing in vertical and stay with the bearing, it will have a higher temperature rating, and added body so it will stay put for a long time. When I first put mine together, I used the best grease that I had in stock, knowing that I'd be right back into it later to change the grease. I used the time to shop for the spindle grease. It ran for less than a month with the automotive grease. When I opened it up to change out the grease I found that the top bearing was nearly dry and the bottom bearing was close behind it. All the grease was getting run out the bottom of spindle and fowling my coolant big time. This is one reason I fitted the leather seal to bottom, the other reason is that I found the grease at the bottom was milky from coolant contamination. My spindle has been running for quite a while now with the spindle grease. I recently knocked out the top pressed in cast iron boss on top of the gear box lid and looked at the top bearing, it still had a real good run of grease in place and it did not look burnt or change worthy. I did just add a little bit of grease to the top for good measure and knocked back in the top cover.
I considered modifying my quil/spindle for stacking bearings, but with the run time that I have now, I am satisfied with singles, it is all that is needed and the added burden of getting the spacing just right so both bearings in stack have close to equal preload, so that one is not skating, IS NOT WORTH IT AT ALL !
Consider that a skating bearing can start an issue which could end up taking out the other bearing as well other related components. If no issue, it is still a redundancy ! Consider that a stacked bearing MUST be measured, then ground to match any and all other bearings within the stack so that they mate together and run as one bearing ! Anything less is asking for trouble.

[Fastest1]

Usually a piece of dry ice on the race will make it loose enough to get out easily. Cheap at the grocery store. Dont forget to wear gloves. It will also make the race fall right in.

[ksanalytical]

Just thought I'd let everyone know that I received my mill... I was pretty easy going about the delays and actually added one or two myself by volunteering to guinea pig some changes. For the record, it took just shy of 6 months from the date of order. I still don't have the 4th axis, but it's supposed to ship this coming week.

I must say that I never really understood how dedicated some people are to this product, but after getting the thing in and firing it up on the floor, it's hard not to be impressed. It's big, fast and powerful. My geared head is much quieter than I expected and only about twice as loud as the RF31 round column (belt drive) I'd used before. But that's while the IH is running more than 1000rpm faster at the spindle. It's sitting right up against a shared wall with my little boys room so volume was a concern, but you can barely hear it through the wall. Maybe that will change when it's cutting?

I've had a few small problems that we'll chalk up to vibration during shipping, but most of that was taken care of during the first day of playing. Tommy has been very responsive to my phone calls even on the weekend. The more I get into the thing, the more convinced I am that it would have taken me more than a year of my spare time to duplicate all the details. The oiling system along is extremely impressive.

I'm running BT30 tooling since I'm one of those who dreams vaguely about building an ATC. It helps that the keling ATC spindles for CNC routers also use BT30 in case I build one of those... The draw bar threads into the tool holder in place of the pull stud. Since that's not exactly common usage I had to weld a 1.25" extension into the metric drawbar Tommy provided. Not a huge deal and it's working great. Just make sure you bevel the edges well.

I also set up the "pulley" ratios in Mach and would recommend that to anyone who has not done so. I talked to Tommy about this so new mills might go out pre-configured from now on.

I got a TECO VFD and it seems like it may actually be driving the 3HP motor to 4500rpm max if the display is to be believed. Tommy swears they calibrated the thing with a tach and that it's accurate. So max speed is actually 4000rpm at the spindle in H-3. It's a little nerve racking to watch it ramp up to speed, but it certainly seems smooth. I think half of the noise is actually the motor fan driving at more than double its intended speed. I'll experiment with an external fan to see for sure.

I'll post more as time goes on.

Ken

[InterferenceFit]

Just a heads up, they were un-crating 4th axis tables when I was there at the beginning of this week.

I'm hopeful that my machine will be shipping out next week, I decided not to go with the Mach Motion controller after having a chance to play with a machine with their controls and seeing how much better the layout is in their cabinets now that they have Greg doing the wiring. Waiting for the Mach Motion controls would have added time to the delivery that I can't afford, and honestly I like that if I need to replace something I'll be working with a regular computer that can be repaired or replaced easily.

To everyone waiting on kits or a machine. I understand how frustrating it is waiting and waiting and waiting. I'm to the point where it's going to be hard to make delivery on the parts I need to make, but after actually running one of the IH mills I know why people who have the machine always say,"Wait for it, you won't be disappointed." While I was there running the clapped out poorly maintained machine they use for one off little stuff, I took a 1/2" 3 flute carbide end mill (not a roughing end mill, & no flood coolant) at 4500RPM and plowed it through a piece of 6061T6 at .300" doc and 12ipm. This was with the 2hp spindle on a HEAVILY used machine and it hardly slowed at all. I'll post pictures once I have a chance to upload them. Surface finish was quite good even.

To those who ordered kits and still haven't gotten them, I hate to say it, but Tommy doesn't appear to value kit sales as highly as turnkey sales. While that is his choice on how to prioritize sales, the only thing he is doing wrong is not being up front with people buying kits and telling them that they can expect delivery based on turnkey sales volume. Personally I'm a first in first out sort of business operator, so if I was him I would just stop selling kits if I couldn't get them out to people in a reasonable time frame. Again, it's his choice on how to run his business, he just needed to be more up front with people purchasing kits so that they have reasonable expectations on time frame. (as in a long time)

Glad you got your machine Ken, I'm on pins and needles now waiting for mine.

[arizonavideo]

They can do good in steel too.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMPjfdkN0vo"]YouTube- ‪IH-facemill-bluechips115.MP4‬‎[/nomedia]

[bigspike]

... While I was there running the clapped out poorly maintained machine they use ...

To me that says a lot about the future of this company.

To those who ordered kits and still haven't gotten them, I hate to say it, but Tommy doesn't appear to value kit sales as highly as turnkey sales.

I find this confusing since with kit sales all you need to do is order some things and gather parts to complete a sale. The in house machined parts can be made along with turnkey parts. Make 9 instead of 6, need a part for a turn key ... make a couple more for inventory and kit sales that have already been paid for. The CNC parts can be cut while working on a turn key mill.

If volume exceeds capacity then it is time to add another mill to the production line.

To anyone waiting longer than 90 days, for parts for a kit that they paid for, I recommend they contact their credit card company and the Attorney General for the State of Connecticut. Continuing to take orders that will get filled "someday" is tantamount to fraud. Credit card rules require shipment within a certain time frame. He will be out of business very quickly if he cannot accept credit cards. He may just need a wake up call to get his act together and fulfill the orders that have been paid for and to ship as promised.

I know of several companies that have as much as a 2 year backlog that both tell you up front and don't take a dime until they are about ready to ship. They have a waiting list and will contact you periodically to verify your interest and will notify you of any change in the schedule. When for example people in front of you cancel and your order is pushed forward. They will also move your name back in the list if you have a temporary financial hardship. These are products costing $5,000 to $10,000

If it were me, I would accept a reasonable deposit no sooner than 4 weeks from the date of shipment and then make sure I shipped on time. If a problem arises communication is key. Calling the customer and explaining the problem goes a long way towards maintaining good customer relations. Prompt refunds on request and suspending new orders until the schedule is back on track are essential.

The absolute worst thing you can do is take new orders and sell parts to them as a turnkey mill when kit buyers wait months and months and months.

[InterferenceFit]

To me that says a lot about the future of this company.

Not necessarily, they use the machine for making brackets and drilling/tapping operations mostly. If the shop was immaculate and the machine was spotless, people would complain they do too much cleaning to work. The machine I'm talking about is not the machine that they run their fixtures on. They have 3 mills and they use each for a different purpose: CNC production, CNC basic operations, manual. Could they maintain their mill better, sure. Is it indicative of a positive or negative future for the company, no. The problems people are talking about on the forums will determine whether they are around in 5 years, not the machine they use to make parts that have tolerances in the fractions as opposed to tenths.

I find this confusing since with kit sales all you need to do is order some things and gather parts to complete a sale. The in house machined parts can be made along with turnkey parts. Make 9 instead of 6, need a part for a turn key ... make a couple more for inventory and kit sales that have already been paid for. The CNC parts can be cut while working on a turn key mill.

Yes and no. They have to do the lathe operations on the ball screws. There's also different lengths for the X & Y extensions. And keep in mind this is a company that can barely find the time to get things done as it is. Sure they could run the parts they make on fixtures well in advance, and from the looks of it while I was there, they do have most of those parts around. Would I do it the way you're talking about, yes, but it's not my business.

If volume exceeds capacity then it is time to add another mill to the production line.

I don't think that their mills are the holdup. I think it's lathe capacity, and sheer lack of enough available labor.

To anyone waiting longer than 90 days, for parts for a kit that they paid for, I recommend they contact their credit card company and the Attorney General for the State of Connecticut. Continuing to take orders that will get filled "someday" is tantamount to fraud. Credit card rules require shipment within a certain time frame. He will be out of business very quickly if he cannot accept credit cards. He may just need a wake up call to get his act together and fulfill the orders that have been paid for and to ship as promised.

Fair enough. I can't say that I'm ready to go that route, but I can understand the guys that feel they need to. If Tommy isn't providing you with acceptable service, then that is why these rules exist, to give you a means to ensure fair treatment.

I know of several companies that have as much as a 2 year backlog that both tell you up front and don't take a dime until they are about ready to ship. They have a waiting list and will contact you periodically to verify your interest and will notify you of any change in the schedule. When for example people in front of you cancel and your order is pushed forward. They will also move your name back in the list if you have a temporary financial hardship. These are products costing $5,000 to $10,000

This is really where the difference between good customer service departments stand out from a company without one. I have to say that I 100% agree with you. Unfortunately for IH, there is no customer service department, and any time Tommy spends updating people on their status puts him that much further behind. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but a little empathy(which some people have been overly generous with, waiting as much as a year to still not have their kit) could go a long way.

If it were me, I would accept a reasonable deposit no sooner than 4 weeks from the date of shipment and then make sure I shipped on time. If a problem arises communication is key. Calling the customer and explaining the problem goes a long way towards maintaining good customer relations. Prompt refunds on request and suspending new orders until the schedule is back on track are essential.

Agreed, but I wouldn't take money till I start assembly of that particular customers machine, would make it easier to predict finished time.

The absolute worst thing you can do is take new orders and sell parts to them as a turnkey mill when kit buyers wait months and months and months.

No the worst thing is to not get anything out, kit or otherwise. The second worst thing is to piss off your customer base.


Fortunately for IH, their product when setup and working, hands down beats anything else available in it's price range. Nothing has the travels or servos of the IH mill for less than $20k+ unless you build it yourself. I hold out hope that Tommy finds an amazing machinist that will allow him to get things organized better, and assembled faster so he can continue to build the business. Time will tell.

[ksanalytical]

Well said. I make no apologies for Tommy either, but the fact is that he has a unique product.

I talked to a new employee on the phone yesterday so I know that Tommy is trying to get things done. Hopefully that will speed along some of the orders.

I can't argue with any of the complaints posted here, and I wouldn't fault anyone for taking action after waiting so long for delivery, but now that it's here, I'm very glad that I didn't compromise with a Tormach.

One thing that has really impressed me is how complicated this CNC conversion is. It would have taken me a year of my spare time (I travel alot) to accomplish something like this. The videos on IHCNC don't really do it justice. The oiling system alone would have taken me weeks.

Ken