[CrashMasterKev]

Ok I’ll try to make this short.
Back on august 8th I ordered and paid for a new machine, a 24x36 tabletop.
I was quoted 3-5 weeks & I finally got it on 10/20.
I also upgraded to servos.
I guess my main concern is that when I got my machine it had steppers on it.
I called the manufacture on it and they told me that the servos wouldn’t work with the type of screw that the machine comes with but never told me until I called them on it, they said I need ball screws.
I really wanted the servos and I asked them if I could do the upgrades needed and they basically told me that it would take a professional to do the conversion, the ball screws, the mounts and motors and the wiring for the new drives.
Now they have agreed to refund the difference between the servos and steppers but I specifically ordered the servos and they shipped me a machine that I paid for and waited for and they shipped me something different and told me that I wasn’t capable of doing the upgrades myself so I’m pretty much hosed for getting the machine I ordered.
I’m really pretty mad and the manufacturer doesn’t seem to care much.
They had plenty of time (8/8-10/14) to tell me that the servos wouldn’t work with the cheaper screws, I probably would have upgraded the screws had they have told me of the problem but they didn’t even give me that option,
I don’t know if they thought I wouldn’t notice or care, but to ship me something that I didn’t order and not tell me ahead of time just isn’t acceptable.
What should I do???

There’s also a lot more to the story like when I emailed the owner of the company asking where my machine was and he treated me like crap, he basically told me that I don’t know how to read and that I wasn’t quoted 3-5 weeks like my quote and the listings on ebay(at the time of purchase) said. I won’t go into the rest but that’s just one more thing that has aggravated me.

Now, I haven’t mentioned the manufacturer name because I still hope that we can come to some kind of agreement on this but I was just hoping for some feedback on how to proceed with this as the manufacturer just wants to refund a little money and I just want the machine I ordered.
Well,, thanks in advance for your response.
Crash Master Kev

[drmosh]

Rough story... here's my take as a person who's worked with WAY more contracts in their life than anyone should have to.

Unless you have other people who can verify the "3-5 weeks delivery" conversation, forget about that part - just let it go. It has no bearing on anything and won't get anywhere in court. Same for the owner treating you like crap - that's your opinion. Maybe that's how he treats his mother and he thought he was being nice to you. Doesn't matter.

The only thing you have going for you is your spec sheet when you ordered, and the email trail (I'm guessing) that goes along with it. If the sheet says servos, and they shipped you steppers, and they can't prove that you were notified and approved of the change, then that's a breach of contract. A purchase agreement is a contract - it's very simple but it IS a contract. Assuming that what you say is totally factual and true, and that you have paid all deposits or whatever per the agreement, then you have a decent case.

If you have paid in full (if you haven't paid in full then do NOT pay anything further) and have not used the machine then you should write them a letter. No more phone conversations at all. Send it registered mail or FedEx, etc. State your grievance and offer three options:

1) Allow them to take the machine back, modify it to your original spec, and send it back to you completely at their expense. You should allow them the same amount of time to refit yours as it would take to build you a new one.

2) Allow them to take the machine back and to build you a new machine, to your original spec, completely at their expense. Again - you must allow them the same time to build you a new one as it would normally take.

3) Allow them to have the incorrectly built machine back and provide you with a complete and total refund of your money.

In the initial letter you should emphasize the following:
1) The machine is not what you agreed to purchase.
2) You did not approve the change to your spec.
3) The machine, as delivered, is unsuitable to your needs and unusable
4) You will not accept this machine as complete and satisfactory to your agreement

Do not:
1) Accuse them of willingly or knowingly delivering an unsuitable machine
2) Bring up 3-5 weeks delay, their treatment of you, etc.
3) Ask them what they think about the situation
4) Offer to talk it over or work it out
5) Discuss any other aspect of the machine, their company, your thoughts or opinions or whatever

Your objective is to make certain they are aware that you know an implicit agreement (purchase order) was in place, you know this agreement was breached, and you're calling them on it. You put them in a box, tell them a way to get out that is more than reasonable and fair, and then let them respond.

You should request that they respond in writing to your concerns within 5 business days. If you don't hear back from them then send another letter in 5 days. Attach the original and ask for a reply in 5 days. If they still don't reply then get a lawyer. If they do reply make sure that the terms are completely spelled out in writing and that you sign and fax and send HARDCOPY via registered mail anything you agree to, and demand the same of them.

No matter how this proceeds you should expect that this will take WAAAAY longer to resolve than you can even begin to believe. If you go legal and start thinking about stuff like damages, etc. then take your wildest dream of how long, how much, how frustrating, whatever and triple it. Drop all your pride now and do everything you can to resolve this without litigation. Go out of your way to give them every opportunity to resolve this to your satisfaction. If it works, then you get a machine (or your money back) and you're settled. You're not happy, but you're settled. If it doesn't work then you've built a great evidence trail that you can use in arbitration or litigation depending on what your state requires.

Best of luck!
mt

[Mariss Freimanis]

There really should be a black-list somewhere to warn innocent people of certain manufacturers; this shouldn't happen to anyone.

One I'm thinking of has a "servomotor option" that includes nothing more than replacing a step motor with a servomotor, no other changes like reduction gearing. The victim winds up with a servomotor that is bogged-down and overloaded by being operated at low RPM; this promptly burns-up the motor in a week.

You may be lucky with your step motor version. At least it won't burn. Who knows what fun the servomotor version would bring.

Mariss

[Switcher]

Well, you didn't say who the manufacture is.

My only question is, did you pay by credit card (Visa)? Get on the phone with your bank (NOW!) Find out what your options are. Visa kicks butt, trust me! And even If you went thru PayPal (auction, etc...) as long as you used a credit card, your chances at coming out on top of your situation, are far, far greater!


If no credit card was involved, and you still used PayPal, maybe they have some policy in place for your situation ( https://www.paypal.com//cgi-bin/webs.../ua/ua-outside )?

Either way If your not happy with what you ordered, get your money back, and return the machine.


Jerry




.

[dertsap]

deceptive business

there are laws against that

[m!ni]

Thats so damn rude, its not as if you spent pennys. I say name the company to help warn the rest of us .
If you are in a europe does the machine have a CE Confirmation ?

I feel for you it would drive me mad ! Good luck getting it sorted !

[diarmaid]

If you feel you need to you can lodge a formal complaint on e-bay against the seller.

If you paid with PayPal you can also lodge a complaint on PayPal. I know that the Paypal complaint system is supposed to be very good, and I think they suspend the sellers account while its being sorted out. This can have huge economic implications for the seller and motivate them to sort their act out ASAP. Often when there are complaints made with PayPal the seller agrees to give you the world on condition that you withdraw your complaint first. DO NOT agree to this. You can't re-lodge your complaint again if you withdraw it, and many people have been screwed by unscrupulous sellers this way. Make sure you receive what you want BEFORE you withdraw any complaint on Paypal. For example, a promise of shipping is not good enough. Wait until your replacement item is confirmed to be shipped by the shipping company, or else in your hands.

Can you tell us who the company is and what it is you bought?
Depending upon the scale of your losses this far, if you get no satisfaction from the seller you may have to just cut your losses and live & learn. Its lousy but to pursue something in the courts these days is so expensive, unless you also sue for costs. Of course, the other side of that coin is that if its actually quite an inexpensive item or small amount of money in question, then you dont need a lawyer and for a few euro (€15 I think) can file a claim in the small claims court and let them sort it out. Then there's the question of whether you ordered from overseas. Unless your seller has a distributor in your own country who you can sue as his representative then it would probably have to be a VERY expensive item to justify going to his country to sue him! If everything you have said above is true, you should feel no doubts over seeking legal recourse. I know we live in a 'claims culture' nowadays which most honest people dont like, but this sounds like a legitimate case, and thats what the courts are there for. He's probably doing this to others aswell. I guarantee that your neither the first or the last to suffer at this sellers hands. (Unless he only started business last week....or is closing next week! )

[CrashMasterKev]

Mornin Guys, thanks for the support and advice.
Like Drmosh (thanks for all the legal stuff DR) said I need to put my feelings aside and look at the real issue and that’s the servos.
I paid for them, they knew it wouldn’t work and they didn’t inform me, they just sent me what they wanted, they never gave me the option to correct the problem.
I do have all the emails and quotes from the company and I did pay with a Visa.
I really don’t feel like fighting with them, this whole thing has been very frustrating thus far and I really just want to get to work.
I’ve told them that they need to make it right and they tell me there’s nothing more they can do but refund the difference between the servos and steppers.

You know what else stinks is I really like the machine, I would much rather be bragging about it than complaining about it.
One thing I can say in there favor is they did ship it fully assembled, unfortunately they didn’t send any documentation with it so I’m still dead in the water as far as hooking it up until I get that, supposedly they sent that last Friday but I still haven’t seen it and it and it only took 3 days for my machine to get here from the same place.
All I know is I’ve waited for a long time to do this and nothing has gone right.
Even the shipping had some problems, the manufacturer told me the crate weighed 400lbs. and the trucking company told me it weighed 515lbs so that was another $50 for shipping. I have to say that I don’t think that the manufacturer lied about the weight but I think the trucking co went by dimensional weight because the crate wasn’t to the dimensions that the manufacturer quoted.
I really didn’t care at that point because it was almost here so I just paid it, but when I opened the crate and saw steppers I was furious!

Well guys, keep the feedback coming, maybe if the manufacturer sees this post he’ll realize that we are people and not machines and that poor customer service will come back and bite you….
Thanks, have a good weekend all.
Crash Master.

[diarmaid]

Who is the manufacturer please ?

[Al_The_Man]

It's probabally futile trying to get the servo conversion from the machine manufacturer, so if you are nevertheless keen on keeping the machine, I would suggest you get all the documentation you can and go after recieving a substantial credit/discount in order to keep you happy and prevent alot of negative publicity that may come our from you being very dissatisfied.
An amount that will go towards fitting the machine with the servo's you ordered when fitted by you or a third party.
I would put this in the formal letter to the head of the company.
This has worked for me in the past.
Al.

[Halfnutz]

This is either someone who has had very little experiance with selling and the buyer seller contract relationship or someone who is very familiar with the legal aspects of a sales contract and has screwed numerous people over. It would help to know which type of an idiot your dealing with.

[NC Cams]

Simple: Call Visa - contest the charge.

Tell them what's gone on, why you're unsatisfied and what the guy has and hasn't done to resolve the problem to your satisfaction. Tell then you want what you ordered or your money back.

Since they sent the wrong item, they should pay for return freight. Be prepared, however, to pay for re-crating charge if you destroyed the shipping crate

Be emphatic that you will NOT pay VISA for the charge and that you either want your money refunded or the situation resolved as he promised to do when he was taking your money (and then not delivering).

Vise will then back-charge the merchant.

At that point the merchant will surely develop a much better attitude toward you and become MUCH MORE INTERESTED in resolving your problem.

Don't expect to get something for nothing. If you have to pay for wiring or ball screws, it will probably be money well spent as the accuracy will surely be better.

I did this (contest charge) to a major national chain of premium furniture stores and held up payment for nearly a year on some shoddy furniture they sent be. They started bringing stuff to my house for approval instead of dumping some scratched up crap on me and then indicating that they'd send someone out to fix it which they they didn't do as promised.

However, they sure as hell did when Visa/MC pulled back the payment of the credit card purchase of the contested charge for the lame furniture they tried to stiff me with.

In this case, retrofitting may be more trouble than it is worth. I'd send the machine back and get one pre-fitted and operation verified. This way if it STILL DOESN"T work, you still can bring VISA To your aid. As soon as you start doing the retrofit, the problem becomes YOURS.

Want to bet that issues will develop sooner or later with the retrofit and the guy will probably abandon you to "teach you who's really boss"??? Try getting parts from a vendor who's trying to teach you a lesson.

Send the machine back and get what you really want and are willing to pay for. Save the stress for more important issues in life. This is supposed to be a hobby, no??? Why make it an unpleasant confrontation that is any worse than it already is?

Did you call VISA yet????????????

[CrashMasterKev]

I don’t know what to do at this point.
I bought this machine to make a little money on the side but I still haven’t seen the replacement parts for the pulley that was damaged or the documentation and discs and such from the manufacturer that they told me they sent on 10/20 so I can’t even run it the way it is. I asked for a tracking number and they didn’t give me that.
This is so frustrating!!
You would think that after all this they could have coughed up the few dollars to get that stuff to me quick.
I don’t even think they shipped it at all last week, the slowest ups probably wouldn’t have taken more than a couple days to get here and when I spoke to them on Monday they told me it would be another 2-3 days
I asked him what they were going to do about the servos and they’ve not gotten back to me.
No I haven’t called Visa yet.
I’ve tried to be reasonable through all this, a little impatient, maybe, but reasonable, and they haven’t done anything to correct the issues.
I can’t wait another 2 months for them to build a new machine so I guess I’m screwed and just like NC Cams said, “Want to bet that issues will develop sooner or later with the retrofit and the guy will probably abandon you to "teach you who's really boss"??? Try getting parts from a vendor who's trying to teach you a lesson.”
I’m screwed, they totally screwed me, I will never have the machine I ordered. All they had to do is call and tell me that there was an issue with the ball screws, after all that time waiting they could have at least given them to me at cost and that way they wouldn’t be out any money, I get a good deal and a better machine, we all would have been happy.
I’ve been programming for about 10 years now and have wanted a machine of my own pretty much the whole time and I’m finally in a position to do it and this is what I end up with.
Oh well, at this point I just wanna see it run but until I get the info from them I’m pretty much dead in the water. It’s coming up on 3 months from the order date, I’ve got to see this thing move. I’m going crazy.
Oh well hopefully I will have some good news soon.
TTYL
Crash Master Kev

[vid1900]

Call Visa now, there is a limit on how many days you can contest a charge.

[ger21]

Call Visa now, there is a limit on how many days you can contest a charge.

You probably have to do it in writing, too.

[diarmaid]

That sucks. But for all the trouble we still dont know the manufacturer or product......someone on the site may have the same product, possibly even from teh same seller, and be able to offer advice. Just a thought.

[kenrik]

I don’t know what to do at this point.
I bought this machine to make a little money on the side but I still haven’t seen the replacement parts for the pulley that was damaged or the documentation and discs and such from the manufacturer that they told me they sent on 10/20 so I can’t even run it the way it is. I asked for a tracking number and they didn’t give me that.
This is so frustrating!!
You would think that after all this they could have coughed up the few dollars to get that stuff to me quick.
I don’t even think they shipped it at all last week, the slowest ups probably wouldn’t have taken more than a couple days to get here and when I spoke to them on Monday they told me it would be another 2-3 days
I asked him what they were going to do about the servos and they’ve not gotten back to me.
No I haven’t called Visa yet.
I’ve tried to be reasonable through all this, a little impatient, maybe, but reasonable, and they haven’t done anything to correct the issues.
I can’t wait another 2 months for them to build a new machine so I guess I’m screwed and just like NC Cams said, “Want to bet that issues will develop sooner or later with the retrofit and the guy will probably abandon you to "teach you who's really boss"??? Try getting parts from a vendor who's trying to teach you a lesson.”
I’m screwed, they totally screwed me, I will never have the machine I ordered. All they had to do is call and tell me that there was an issue with the ball screws, after all that time waiting they could have at least given them to me at cost and that way they wouldn’t be out any money, I get a good deal and a better machine, we all would have been happy.
I’ve been programming for about 10 years now and have wanted a machine of my own pretty much the whole time and I’m finally in a position to do it and this is what I end up with.
Oh well, at this point I just wanna see it run but until I get the info from them I’m pretty much dead in the water. It’s coming up on 3 months from the order date, I’ve got to see this thing move. I’m going crazy.
Oh well hopefully I will have some good news soon.
TTYL
Crash Master Kev

Hi;
I am new to this forum but I have been reading your thread with great interest. I am getting ready to buy a cnc machine myself and I don't want to run into the same problems that you are having. Could you please tell us the name of the Mfg. and model# of your machine. I hope you can get your issues resolved quickly.

[vid1900]

Visa gives the merchant 7 business days to respond to any chargeback.

If the merchant does not respond in that time, you get your money back automatically. So if this vendor really does not have his ship straight, you most likely will receive your credit quickly.

It is up to the vendor to prove to Visa that the correct mech was shipped. Your vendor emails stating the correct mech was not/could not be shipped will be hard to counter.

If there is any doubt, Visa ALWAYS sides with the buyer, not the vendor.

Click on my screename above, and Private Message me the name of this vendor if you do not want to publicly state it.

Thanks.

[CrashMasterKev]

Hey Guys,
Maybe I’m just fooling myself but I still have hope that the manufacturer will come through and correct the problem, if that’s the case I should have a great machine.
Who am I kidding???
Wishful thinking!!!
If something doesnt happen soon i'll let it out but I still have tech support and warrantee for whatever that is worth, time will tell I guess.

[mxtras]

Yeah - this situation is BS. You have been way too patient. This is business and you have every right to be demanding of an immediate resolution.

You are being way too soft on these people. Are you sleeping with the owner's daughter, or what?

Call VISA now. That will get their attention and get your squeeky wheel well greased, I am sure.

Scott