[Stepper Monkey]

Is it actually CNC machining, or is it limited to just hotrodding and building machines?

An outsider I recommended to the site pointed out that this place was of no interest to them, as they wanted to a site to learn about and discuss making items using CNC, not a site dedicated to, as they put it, the "machine constructors guild"

Looking at it from that perspective, and seeing the advice we constantly offer newbs around here, they have a point.

I thought this was important enough to repost on its own thread;

I know that this is primarily a forum of guys that 1) are extremely into building things themselves, 2) already have a much greater array of tools and skills than even most mechanically inclined folks do, and 3) have an almost cult-like pride about not letting anyone else do anything they might be able to do themselves. Don't forget 4) that we're insanely cheap old skinflints, too!

Because of all of this I know we have a great tendency toward assuming everyone else has the same inherent skillsets and interest in getting elbow-deep into tearing aport everything like we do. I am constantly reminded how much we take for granted as a simple job that is actually well beyond the ken of even very smart people that simply never spent thier whole lives building things since they were kids. Even if they have the skills - and I know this is REALLY hard to grasp - they might just be interested in machining and not building mills and learning electronics.

We should remember that when recommending new machines to people. Sure WE can put together a conversion in a day, pick the right motors, and wire up the controllers and configure the software in a snap. That is because we do this a lot. This is not a trivial job by any stretch.
How many posts are there where we offer help about projects people have still going a year later trying to get running for the first time?

I am a person that is considered to have unnervingly scary skills when it comes to things mechanical, even by other engineers, and I never even once considered building my first CNC from scratch. Now I build them all the time - I had something that ran right to work and learn from.

Secondly, sometimes it is a purely business decision. For my first machine, I needed to make parts, not CNC equipment. I certainly couldn't afford to have the machine down for a week while trying to chase down some little issue that kept it from running right, and for a newbie that is every adjustment there is. For us we instantly spot a gib or bearing or Mach adjustment and fix it without thinking, but that will stop new users dead for weeks as they don't know how to recognize what the problems are caused by and chase them down yet.

You have to have a place to start first. I learned CNC without ever knowing what the hell a stepper motor was and I have no idea even what kind of screws were in my first machine. Give me one good reason I needed to? That was something that came later because I wanted to learn more.
First I learned the art of machining, and am very glad I could just concentrate on that and not on trying to screw with my mill.

Please think about newbies before giving advice! Can you save $500 bucks or more building an X3 conversion yourself? Sometimes. Can they? No. Not a chance.
The extra cost of a conversion over a turnkey solution with support or training is not worth the money to us, we don't need it.
It is the best investment most folks starting out could ever make. Period.

If someone asked you to teach them how to drive a car, would your first response be to start suggesting ways to weld up the frame, the proper tools to form the body panels, and what pistons to best use in what modified engine block in building a car from scratch first?
Get serious. They want to learn to drive. Save the hotrodding gearhead lessons until later.

[Geof]

....An outsider I recommended to the site pointed out that this place was of no interest to them, as they wanted to a site to learn about and discuss making items using CNC, not a site dedicated to, as they put it, the "machine constructors guild"

Looking at it from that perspective, and seeing the advice we constantly offer newbs around here, they have a point....

Nonsense, they just have not been taking enough notice of what is posted on this site. There are number of contributors who are into CNC not as a hobby but as a tool in their money making business; I am one of them. If someone wants to discuss making items using CNC that is available on this site.

[Stepper Monkey]

Nonsense, they just have not been taking enough notice of what is posted on this site. There are number of contributors who are into CNC not as a hobby but as a tool in their money making business; I am one of them. If someone wants to discuss making items using CNC that is available on this site.

Would someone like to statistically break down how many newbie questions about benchtop machining have the same knee jerk responses, the first and most common of which is always to build an X3 from scratch? Even if they don't want one. Even if it doesn't suit them.

It is actually most of the questions here. Really. I am glad there are those of us that do use machines for a purpose, but we are probably a minority, at least among those that advise the newbs, and they can't seem to get it into thier heads that getting the machine running is a prerequisite, not the end goal itself.

[grasshorse]

As a certified newbie, I think that this site is a wonderful resource because of all the gearhead talk. It is vital to have people discussing the technical issues of how these machines work, so it is clear how to upgrade these machines to do what we want them to. Lurking around this site has been a wonderful education for me, and although I have yet to purchase a mill, I have certainly learned some of the pitfalls of the platforms I don't want. First thing I wanted was one of those mill/lathe combitation machines. I did the research on this site, and learned, oh, no, I don't want one of those. So as a beginner, I am grateful for all the insight presented here.

Steve

[Stepper Monkey]

It is vital to have people discussing the technical issues of how these machines work, so it is clear how to upgrade these machines to do what we want them to.
Steve

And there's the trap. Has anyone ever really discussed the fact that maybe you could just simply buy a machine that actually did what you wanted it to in the first place?

[grasshorse]

Well, after looking at site a bit, I definately get the feeling that my time would better spent, getting a x3 with a conversion kit from cncfusion, and all the electronics from xylotex. That way I can get up to speed faster, with a relatively low cost entry point. (Around 2k) I would like to classify myself as a do-it-yourselfer, but I also know that there is a lot more to making these machines work than I currently know. If I look at the CNC machines on the grizzly site, or IH they are WAY out of my price range, especially since this is a hobby first. I think that most people on this site are do-it-yourselfers, since they are interested in manufacturing parts and what-not in the first place and why they are interested in pimping their machines. (Which I love). All of that said, I seem to love to collect equipment, so I have to make certain I will complete my conversion, AND desired projets to make this investment worthwhile. Just my 2 cents.

Steve

[The Blight]

I don't think anyone is stopping these people from discussing CNC machining, so they are free to do so. I have seen some topics where people ask for help on machining a part and discussing how it best can be made. It's just that most people here do find the making of machines more interesting.

"If someone asked you to teach them how to drive a car, would your first response be to start suggesting ways to weld up the frame, the proper tools to form the body panels, and what pistons to best use in what modified engine block in building a car from scratch first?
Get serious. They want to learn to drive. Save the hotrodding gearhead lessons until later."

Bad example.. If they had asked about buying a car, then it would have been okey. When someone here asks how to use a CNC machine, we point to some sites or articles..etc , so I would just point the guy to a driving school.

Seriously what do you want us to do? Tell them to buy machines? Because many people here do make their own machines, they don't have experience with the CNC ready machines out there, and so they wont recommend them. I wont tell anyone to buy a machine I have never used or don't know.

"It is vital to have people discussing the technical issues of how these machines work, so it is clear how to upgrade these machines to do what we want them to."

True.

And we don't discuss the fact that you can just buy the machine, because we don't see the need to do so. I bet that if you want to buy a machine, you can sit down with google a couple hours and find the right machine for you. If I need some information, the first thing I do is to search. I spend hours doing it, and all the information you need is out there. When you have done some searching, you can ask a question if it's a good choice. If you get some bad answers (along with the "no thats not a good mill") you can sit down and look at the alternatives (all the other types of mills or whatever). If you want to guide some newbies to the right machinetype, write up an article with the most common CNC ready machines and get an admin or moderator to pin it on the top of the page. Then people can reply to the topic with their own experience on the machine (all other replies should be deleted) and anyone who wants a CNC machine can read through it and decide what to buy. If they have questions which have not been answered there, they are ofcourse free to ask them on the forum.

"Discuss all mini mills sherline, taig, square column, round column and CNC mill conversions here!" The description of this forum.

[hoss2006]

This is the DIY section.
Many a newbie has asked recommendations for what machine to buy and been given help as to how to build one themselves. If they are only looking for a turnkey, I myself have given links to CNC masters, Industrial Hobbies, KDN, Ebay, etc,
but the very high cost is prohibitive to most. We tell them what we wish we could get if only we had the money. Many DIY'ers are motivated by cost savings. Newbies may want to just get in and drive but can't afford it. People with large bank accounts that only want to discuss CNC machining should
be redirected to other forums such as Tools and Tooling Technology or Programing and Design.(wrong)
I understand not everyone is mechanically inclined and capable of building a CNC mill from scratch themselves, but with help from here, they can find out what parts to buy to assemble one themselves.
Many newbie is nudged to get an X3, since at the moment, it's the best work area vs. cost option available. When they state the need 12 inches X ,5 inches Y travel, that cuts out the stock Taig, X1 and X2.
This forum shows them what can be accomplished with these mills and modifications that can be done to them. Even if it's beyond their abilities right now, with time and knowledge and tutoring form here, it may doable later.
It all comes down to what they want but more so what they can Afford.

[CJL5585]

When I signed into CNCZone this morning, I thought that my mind was clear, the sky was blue, and the Sun was shining. Now I am already confused.

Your question on how to define our hobby on the zone is as follows: Is it actually CNC machining, or is it limited to just hotrodding and building machines? An outsider I recommended to the site pointed out that this place was of no interest to them, as they wanted to a site to learn about and discuss making items using CNC, not a site dedicated to, as they put it, the "machine constructors guild".

To make sure that I was on the right site, I moved the mouse pointer up to the top of the screen to the topic of FORUMS. I clicked the mouse and started to scroll downwards. I saw forums on machines, woodworking, metalworking, drives, electronics, various cad package information, machining, and so forth. I did not see a forum on Hotrodding. There is however forums for building machines.

Everything is covered here from the most basic function of cad drawing to creating g code from any number of packages, to zeroing the machine, to using almost every type of control software available on the planet, and with photos of finished products.

Anyone who sees nothing of interest on this site in their search for how to create parts on a CNC must be from a different planet, ......or an idiot.

[LongRat]

Anyone who sees nothing of interest on this site in their search for how to create parts on a CNC must be from a different planet, ......or an idiot.

Haha, good answer.
I think this is the best machining/CNC/whatever you call it site on the web. CJL is right. Is there ANYTHING to do with this field that is not available to learn from this site? If not already on here, someone will be able to help. I consider this site to be one of the jewels of the internet.
However, I do agree that many of this forum's contributors are more interested in machine construction and upgrade than I am. But that doesn't bother me one bit. I don't have to read and contribute to the threads about those particular aspects. There are plenty of people more interested in actually doing the machining - for example, visit the IC engines forum of the site.

[dertsap]

who ever came on the site and said they couldn t find anything of interest ,HAS NO interest in cnc ,also this site is not just dedicated to the hobby user , i can t think of anyone i know who has a hass or mori in the workshop they fire up when they feel like being a warrior on the weekend ,nor do i know anyone who for the hell of it uses expensive softwares like gibbs ,mastercam or the likes to make picture frames on the weekend,
the forum page speaks for itself
need gcode help its there
need programming help its there
need to change spindle bearings on a fadal ,its there
wanna build or buy a cnc ,its there
macro questions ? the answer is there
and so on
these guys have built a site upon the requests of the members ,new forums pop up every so often if the need is there
the magic is if you can t find something then post a question , chances are youll get many answers in return

[askman]

well, my view is this. you either have to have money or be willing to invest time and energy if you want machine of certain capability at a budget.

The challenge of CNC is CAD/CAM more than setting up the machine IMHO. I am also assuming that you have some machining experience before buying a cnc. if you are total newby to the machining area, go ahead and take some basic machining course at a local Community college. that is just good common sense.

for setting up a cnc using a kit, I believe anybody with machining experience can do the mechanical conversion. electronic setup is bit more daunting for most, but something like xylotex board do make it fairly straight forward. I mean, steppers only require 4 input wires (step, direction, power and ground) and 4 wire to the motor for each axis. if they have trouble wiring at all, they can get a finished control box with stepper ready to go. (which is still affordable)

frankly, hard part is the CAD/CAM software and setup, and this is true for either turnkey or kit.

Do I want a machining center? not until I have space and fund to put it. I do have a machine shop that has paid for itself, so I can't complain, and with good capability that does what I need.

also, I am mostly user, not a machine designer. I do tinker though. I would buy off the shelf ready to go machine, if price was more reasonable, but money is always tight. (at least for most of us) kit for me has proven to be money saver that allow me to get what I want without lot of work.

[Zumba]

Stepper, your "outsider" friends must be mentally challenged. Apparently, they don't know how to use the scroll wheel to find the right forums. There are "DIY" machine building forums as well as machining forums. They're not the same, believe it or not.

As for the noobs who want to build their own CNCs, they ask questions, we answer them. If the guy doesn't know anything about machining, yet asks a question regarding ballscrews, we'll answer it. If he fails at the task, that's his problem. In the meantime, another member or lurker will stumble across the thread and learn something from it.

Are you suggesting that the forum regulate the info that gets passed around? Protect noobs from technically advanced replies? Assume every beginner is braindead and not give him any info?

[Zumba]

P.S. Let's say I build 10,000 lb machines powered by AC servos and vector drive spindles. Seeing that your handle is "stepper monkey", should I assume you're a n00b? Give you dumbed down answers because I'm arrogant and assume that you won't understand anything I say?

[Stepper Monkey]

P.S. Let's say I build 10,000 lb machines powered by AC servos and vector drive spindles. Seeing that your handle is "stepper monkey", should I assume you're a n00b? Give you dumbed down answers because I'm arrogant and assume that you won't understand anything I say?

I can't say I follow any sort of logic or context to this. It seems to make no sense or have any bearing to my previous comment. Can you please make sense of it for me? The only thing I can grasp from it is that either you don't read past the first sentence of my posts, or can't or won't understand anything I say, or are just looking for a reason to get pissed at something.

Remembering not to give such advanced advice to newbs trying to get a start that it will just cause them grief doesn't seem like that controversial of an observation. Advanced answers are for advanced questions, not ALL questions.
Locally, I have now had to wire up controllers for, finish and straighten out machines for, find parts for, and even made a replacement machine now for people who were told online that something was "easy" that certainly wasn't, and then got into very big trouble and never got the chance to make chips. People who are a very far cry from idiots. They just were told something was no problem when it was not something a beginner could ever concievably do cold. Just to write them off as idiots, however, is not very helpful.

[svenakela]

I see it this way: It doesn't matter if your machine is a DIY with small steppers or if it's a 10 tonner with 3 phase servos making die tools - the theory is still the same. Same G-Code. Same linear motion. Same CAM-tools.
The only thing that differs is the budget.
That's the beauty of this forum. The hobby guys can discuss the same topics as the HAAS-machinists and even in the same thread.

Regards,
Sven

[The Blight]

Stepper, get a grip on yourself and stop posting crap in other topics.

Zumba don't throw crap either.

I will tell people to do what I think is best. The person recieving this advice should then consider if this is the best way to go. And I don't think people will recomend buying machines they have no experience with. The same aplies to how to do things.

If this person has some mechanical experience or logical sense, he or she should be able to determin how hard it will be to make this or that. I will not take the blame for some noob who cant seem to figure where to draw the line.

Again! Since you care so much about these noobs. Write an article for the noobs and people who just want to buy a machine. I myself don't care what they do. I'm just here to give advice.

[Stepper Monkey]

If people give advice, they have to take SOME responsibility if it is directing people into getting in over thier heads. Since they are noobs, they are counting on us to help determine where to draw the line. There is a lot of good advice on here, but a fair deal of it also is pretty much walking them into a trap.

I didn't fully understand how much of an insular community this was. Had I even suspected the level of hostility to noobs ran so deep, I never would have said anything in the first place.

As to the suggestion of writing an FAQ for noobs, I think it is a great idea and up until a day or two ago would have gladly volunteered.
Now that I realize that the idea of actual fitness for purpose violates the religious dogma here so fundamentally, I don't think one is such a good idea anymore.

I'm done with the subject. Enough.

[The Blight]

We can't take responsibility for someone elses actions just because we gave them a piece of advice (If it was like that, then no one would post here). I don't even know those people who I give advice to, and so I can't tell if they are qualified for such a project (or whatever they are doing), but next time I will ask for their story. I might even give them a call and maybe visit them too! I won't spend time judging if someone is good enough to do what I advice them to. I allways assume these people are just as smart (or dumb) as me, and so I give them my best advice and they will have to figure it out from there. You might consider yourself superior to these people and judge what knowledge to pass on, but thats not me and I bet a lot of people here look at it the same way.

We are not against noobs. Where did you get that from? Just because we don't give them the answer you would, doesnt mean we hate them. It's just that allmost all the questions they come with, have been answered before, and with a little searching they could find all this.

So why didn't you write the FAQ? You just posted this topic and started complaining instead of doing something about it.

Came to think about it. There is a FAQ section here that should be used more.

[svenakela]

Enough with the flaming. Either do not respond or use a better way when you write, and be constructive. It works in all the other forums so it should work here too. Blaming and flaming doesn't help anyone.