[heilcnc]

i asked before about software for my 7x12 cnced lathe i use turbocnc now but it has many bugs and is not being updated i use cnc zeus on my mill love it have no problems i realy do not want to go the windows way with mach3 but it looks like my only thing left i need threading tried emc2 this weekend got it going but hard to set up and does not support the g codes use just not happy with it like the dos based zeus any help??? thanks

[John3]

i realy do not want to go the windows way ....

I'd sure agree with that sentiment.

Have you looked at CNCpro? There seems to be support for it and the source code is available !!!!!

Check out:

http://www.crankymachinist.com/cncpro/

http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29711

I'm thinking of using this for my next project.

John

[in2steam]

Sounds like you are trying harder to avoid windows then the effort you would put forth to deal with the odd off bug with it. If this is idealistic did you forget that DOS is from microsoft also? If its old hardware its time to save money. If you just don't like windows(I am not big fan myself) sometimes you have to bite the bullet and deal with it, I hate taxes just like anyone else still pay them though.
I have cnc plotter cutters at work that run 24/7 with no problems in a xp based software, the only problems we get are the ones from the software that the machine uses not xp. At home XP gives me no problems other then a rare problem with explorer which I don't use to browse anyway.

chris

[acondit]

i asked before about software for my 7x12 cnced lathe i use turbocnc now but it has many bugs and is not being updated i use cnc zeus on my mill love it have no problems i realy do not want to go the windows way with mach3 but it looks like my only thing left i need threading tried emc2 this weekend got it going but hard to set up and does not support the g codes use just not happy with it like the dos based zeus any help??? thanks

What gcodes does emc2 not support that you need for the lathe?

Alan

[John3]

IMO, staying with DOS makes sense on several levels......

1. DOS is a much better (launching) environment for real time control programs. A program can take full control of the PC and its hardware.

That means better more accurate time slice processing.

2. Windoz has a vast amount of software overhead that gets in the way of clean machine control.

3. My guess is that your plotter doesn't have its servo/stepper motors controlled by windoz, Instead windoz is dumping higher level commands to the plotter and there is one/several other real time processors in side the plotter doing what is being proposed by the DOS controller.

4. Windoz WILL crash more than DOS. If for no other reason than there is much more code. At any given failure rate per lines of code, per numbers of routines, per modules executed windoz has more chances to crap out.

Also, the core DOS code has been around a very long time has been rung out many times over. Windoz on the other hand still has uncharted spyware hooks that Bill probably doesn't even know about (or will admit to).

We use windoz on a large number of computers. And based on how often those freeze or have problems, I would not want that for a machine in the middle of a time consuming or expensive part.

my $.02

John

Sounds like you are trying harder to avoid windows then the effort you would put forth to deal with the odd off bug with it. If this is idealistic did you forget that DOS is from microsoft also? If its old hardware its time to save money. If you just don't like windows(I am not big fan myself) sometimes you have to bite the bullet and deal with it, I hate taxes just like anyone else still pay them though.
I have cnc plotter cutters at work that run 24/7 with no problems in a xp based software, the only problems we get are the ones from the software that the machine uses not xp. At home XP gives me no problems other then a rare problem with explorer which I don't use to browse anyway.

chris

[in2steam]

Ha,
You hit my buttons on the mark, but on the same tolken the machines that I run still rely on the code to be correct, its been my exeperience that only hardware and operator error have caused problems, not windows or the underlying system these are networked with roughly 400 others. These machines also intergrate a visual positioning system so far more overhead then a normal mach machine would have.
Thats not say you could not get a plc to run the lathe and have mach run it, again not a perfect system and I don't always like it. I do understand the benefits to DOS, and I know windows isnt perfect, but on the same hand if you don't expose the computer to the effects of having a bunch useless crap on it then your possiblites of crashing are greatly reduced, windows XP in of itself is a good program its all the other stuff that great reduces its ablity and increases its overhead(this being brought to my attention after having to do a fresh install becuase of a hardware faillure on my own PC). If you are going to be worried about running a long or complicated part its best to not even have the computer used other then the purpose of driving the machine and related software. The true fact is the machine cannot react as fast as windows(on a newer machine) can in a given time frame-assuming all is well with both. I am old enough to have used DOS enough to know is not exactly perfect either, however I would agree that its far and away more so then XP as an OS.
chris

[cjdavis618]

While I am a new poster here, this topic is an old one for me. I am a network engineer by profession and that is as far as I will go for background this discussion.

The question for the original poster should be is the cost with windows the problem or is it the hardware requirements?

I can tell you first hand that most problems with windows usually happens to be the applications that run within it are poorly written, or incompatible hardware that someone finds on a shelf that they want to work. Usually it is for some gadget or gizmo that serves them no real purpose. Just turn off the software you don't need and don't install software you know nothing about. Really, software programmers are no different than anyone else. They create things they need or want and have the choice to use extraordinary detail, or make crap. They to sometimes have to use crappy tools they are given and then some use good proven software to create quality product.

Really, can any of you honestly say that you have put extreme detail into everything you made? Never made anything in haste? Honestly?? No mistakes either I bet. lol

I have several racks of servers that I maintain (Or get paid to anyway, they are self sufficient unless hardware problems occur.) I have a mix of SCO unix, Windows 2000, NT 2003 and even a few Linux servers that I never have issues with. I love Linux, I have no problem with MS and Unix is yesterday. Bluntly put, anyone that is capable of running Dos is over qualified to fix anything with XP. If they choose not to, it had better be for money reasons or they are complacent in ignorance.

If you want a stable PC, stop running to the bargain bin at your online or local computer store to buy your parts and do your homework. There is a reason for the "HCL" (If you don't know what that stands for, find another hobby). Get a computer that has all components from the HCL, load windows, use windows built in drivers and run it. If you want extra assurance, get an old server off of ebay and run your CNC on that. In fact, hit me up and I might sell you some that have proven themselves for just such a task.


As for Dos as a whole, come on. I'm not even going to waste my time why that would be a asinine step backwards. If money is the object, get a copy of ubuntu or something and figure it out. You will be much better off.

If money isn't the problem, well.. good luck.


PS. All those extra lines of code that was put into Ms products, were asked for by customers and R and D. It is really easy to blame old Bill with his billions of dollars. All those "hooks" that were mentioned are called "Exploits". Although we have a few choice names for the people that abuse them, we still correct them as they are found.

[heilcnc]

i do not use junk on my machines!!!!!!!! windows good for every thing but cnc control i use cnczeus never crashes i did try mach3 but did not get the preformance that i got with cnczeus a dos based system for mills tried emc2 but i would like a easy setup i did get it to work on my mill but took hours

[Bubba]

My "Personal Opinion" of Windows is there is to much "JUNK" running in the background to make it useful for a Real Time System.

For this, I like DOS and because my controller box does nothing but run the machine, this makes me happy.

I do not have to jump through hoops to make it run real time and I am not in the shop to sure the net or anything else. Just make the machine do what I want it to.

I do not want or need some fancy GUI to make parts. Nor do I need a mouse to make things happen. Just a nice stable keyboard and minimal graphics on the screen. All parts are run through a simulator to be sure they will look like what I want and if the powe doesn't fail, they have.

On top of that, I can run "junk box" computers and it gets the job done!

[cjdavis618]

If that works for you, then great. You said yourself that there were bugs in the program you were using. This will be no different with any program. I have found some in mach3 already and havn't even got my CNC installed.

Look, I'm not bashing anyone individually. I am sick of the Linux VS windows debate. And frankly it is refreshing to see DOS being the topic for a change. I have been in this business since before DOS 2 (As a hobby even longer) and have been around the block a couple of times since.

Most of the stuff that XP and other MS OSes installs by default can be removed. There are XP "lite" options that reduce the number of added crap that MS puts out for the average user.

Regardless of whether you like DOS or not, it is NOT capable of using the majority of hardware on the market today to it's full potential. Yes, you will get basic functions, but the applications and the command.com itself cannot use the upper memory and CPU registers on most processors since the late 1990s. Therefore, Real time and Virtual timing become a blurred vision. It seems to me like buying a half million $ Ferrari and ordering it with a 3 cylinder GEO metro engine. I'm sorry it just makes no sense to me.

If you have a separate PC to draw and code with, then why not. But that wasn't stated in the original question. I prefer one station take care of all of the needs in the shop when it comes to CNC. JMHO

[John3]

While I am a new poster here.....

I have several racks of servers that I maintain (Or get paid to anyway, they are self sufficient unless hardware problems occur.) I have a mix of SCO unix, Windows 2000, NT 2003 and even a few Linux servers that I never have issues with.....

Real Time Controllers and Enterprise servers are two completely different applications for computers. It is just not reasonable to think that what hardware and what software works the best for one, will work the best for the other. There are different performance, interface, memory, diagnostic, etc, specifications for each application.

(If you don't know what that stands for, find another hobby). Get a computer that has all components from the HCL, load windows, use windows built in drivers and run it. If you want extra assurance, get an old server off of ebay and run your CNC on that. In fact, hit me up and I might sell you some that have proven themselves for just such a task.

HCL??? "Hardware Control Language" or "Hardware Compatibility List", not sure what hobby you've found.

Yeah right, an old server with dried out electrolytic capacitors, corroded connector contacts, worn out drive and fan bearings and that's been sucking in dust for the last 5 years is going to be more reliable than new low cost PC hardware?

As for Dos as a whole, come on. I'm not even going to waste my time why that would be a asinine step backwards. If money is the object, get a copy of ubuntu or something and figure it out. You will be much better off.

Its even more asinine to think that windows can provide the same quality platform for a high performance real time controller with respect to the issues that matter. There will be tons more phase jitter (which matters in real time control) from windows maintaining its background tasks and processing things like mouse port interrupts.

The reason DOS makes a lot of sense for this type of application, is that there isn't much to it as an OS. It provides the basic bootup, file and interface functions, Then the controller software can take FULL control of ALL hardware and software resources. Just not possible in windows.

PS. All those extra lines of code that was put into Ms products, were asked for by customers and R and D. It is really easy to blame old Bill with his billions of dollars. All those "hooks" that were mentioned are called "Exploits". Although we have a few choice names for the people that abuse them, we still correct them as they are found.

For a totally different perspective on this, the Book "Undocumented PC" makes for very interesting reading.

At ANY given professional or knowledge level, the chances of getting burned or suffering a problem with OS "Exploits" is infinitely less in a DOS environment as compared to a windoz environment.

John

[cjdavis618]

HCL stands for Hardware Compatibility List. Funny though that you should make my point for me. Hardware Control Language was written by IBM for the AS400 platform. lol Still a Computer system in its own right.

As far as not being possible for hardware to be controlled in windows. Depends on which windows. There were 5 (well known) versions of windows that gave you direct access to the hardware. They all were based on a Dos Platform. Care to guess which ones?

What did you say you were running your CNC from? Mac maybe?
Just because I have extra servers doesn't mean they are old. Just means we upgraded. Never said anything about old.

As for the Exploits, you are correct. Provided the system is non networked, no access to any drive system other than HDD and a single operator. In those circumstances, I would put any XP system up to the same standard. You can't compare any other windows platform to a dos platform. That is comparing apples to oranges. They were designed and used for different things.

It's interesting that you bring that book up. The information contained in there was pivotal for the development of Windows. Hence Plug and Play and hardware detection through IO device mapping.

[HuFlungDung]

I would tend to be suspicious of a pure 'software cnc' running under windows, at least until it had proven itself reliable.

However, I think a decent compromise is something akin to the Galil dedicated hardware solution for motion control. You don't have to buy Camsoft to create an interface, if you are the programming type, you can always get the developer kit and make your own interface. It might even be feasible to write a post to convert gcode to Galil commands.

Now bad programming of the windows/Galil interface can still cause problems whenever logic has not been created for every circumstance, but I think the dependability of the motion control itself is safe with a hardware solution running under Windows.

[cjdavis618]

Agreed, if you are doing this for a business or as a source of income. It is best to have dedicated "systems" in place designed for that task.

But for the hobby machinist like myself. I can get by with windows running a xylotex kit and be thrilled that I can make new items. Items that I could not have made and would not have attempted any other way.

[CarbideBob]

Windows is not a real time operating system. Never has been and never will be. Just ask the people at Microsoft. They sell different operating systems for real time use. The task switcher and driver interface at the core of windows was not designed for real time multitasking.

It is possible to run a very stable windows system on a machine tool using the setup described by HuFlungDung. I have grinders using Win NT and Win 2000 that have been up and running for years without a reboot or powerdown.

The problem arises when you try to do everything in software. Tasks like step pulse generation need complete control over the hardware in order to generate a smooth pulse train. If windows is busy when you release the mouse button on your jog control and you move the mouse off the control your software may not see the mouse-up event and you jog doesn't stop.(ouch). Windows is not deterministic. Things make work for months and then you get a glitch. Trying to remove a bug that appears once every couple of months is a programming nightmare. (been there, done that)

I have to give a big hats off to Mach for making it work as well as it does but I'm with Hu. Use windows for your interface with real hardware underneath doing the actual axis control.
Bob

[John3]

Look, I'm not bashing anyone individually. I am sick of the Linux VS windows debate.

I don't think anyone is seeing this as a windoz v. Linux debate.

Regardless of whether you like DOS or not, it is NOT capable of using the majority of hardware on the market today to it's full potential.

Who cares if DOS cannot use hardware to it's full potential, that's not the code that matters.

Yes, you will get basic functions,...

In a CNC machine control system its only the basic functions that are needed from an OS anyway. Anything else the OS does is consuming resources and reducing performance.

.... but the applications and the command.com itself cannot use the upper memory and CPU registers on most processors since the late 1990s.

And that matters why? It just makes no sense to run other applications on the machine controller, nor is the command line processor even relevant to the important aspects of a real time machine control program.

It seems to me like buying a half million $ Ferrari and ordering it with a 3 cylinder GEO metro engine. I'm sorry it just makes no sense to me.

To further the Ferrari analogy....

Using windoz (or linux for that matter) for realtime machine control is putting extra layers between you and the car. If I'd have a Ferrari, I'd rather be the driver, than just sitting in the passenger seat and make requests to someone else,who is behind the wheel. Especially if the one behind the wheel was a slow fat man, with lots of extra baggage and several other recurring distractions.

If you have a separate PC to draw and code with, then why not.

Who wouldn't use separate PC's? As cheap and as common as PC's are today it makes no sense to try and use the same box for developing programs as the one running the machine. Different applications, different resources needed. The developmental PC should have a comfortable seating position, large monitor, mouse and excellent tactile feel keyboard just to name a few. The controller PC should not have a mouse, probably a cheap monitor in case its screen gets scratched and very importantly, a fully covered or membrane keyboard that is impervious to chips.

But that wasn't stated in the original question...

No it wasn't stated, its just the obvious right way to do it.

John

[heilcnc]

i was posting this not to do a windows vs linux i was just looking for lathe software that uses dos i have great luck with cnczeus no crashes does evreything i want on my mill i need lathe software for my lathe that threads im using turbo cnc now but it has many bugs and is no longer supported thanks

[John3]

There were 5 (well known) versions of windows that gave you direct access to the hardware. They all were based on a Dos Platform........

Direct control of hardware in windows? Isn't that what the windows drivers do?

For the technical performance aspects, it doesn't matter that windoz was based on DOS or booted from it. Its that once windoz is running it becomes the operating system, taking control over the PC. That's exactly what the real time controller should be doing.

What did you say you were running your CNC from? Mac maybe?

That's over my head.... not sure where that came from. MAC might have been a good platform if Apple had made it an open architecture.

Just because I have extra servers doesn't mean they are old. Just means we upgraded. Never said anything about old.

Come on, my memory is bad, but it ain't that bad!

If you want extra assurance, get an old server off of ebay and run your CNC on that. In fact, hit me up and I might sell you some that have proven themselves for just such a task. .

Oops... who said old?

As for the Exploits, you are correct. Provided the system is non networked, no access to any drive system other than HDD and a single operator. In those circumstances, I would put any XP system up to the same standard.

This day in age, it is going backwards if you're considering non-networked computers..... I sure don't want to be handling floppies or ram cards to load programs into my machines.

You can't compare any other windows platform to a dos platform. That is comparing apples to oranges. They were designed and used for different things.

!!!!!! * E X A C T L Y * !!!!!

THANK YOU. FINALLY SOMEONE GETS WHAT I AM SAYING.

John

[John3]

i was posting this not to do a windows vs linux i was just looking for lathe software that uses dos i have great luck with cnczeus no crashes does evreything i want on my mill i need lathe software for my lathe that threads im using turbo cnc now but it has many bugs and is no longer supported thanks

Did you get a chance to look at CNCpro? Will that work for your application? With the source code available maybe it can be made to do what's needed?

Also, I know at one time the Zeus guys were talking about Lathe functionality. Have you contacted them to see if they can help? I too have found their program to be very good.

John

[cjdavis618]

Whatever about the servers. In that respect, yes you can get junk servers off of ebay. So .... Oops, yes I said old on that. But when I when I spoke of mine, I never said that.

john3, I could debate you for the next few weeks. We will just agree to disagree and leave it at that. You are content in your beliefs as am I. But your certainly not using DOS to reply to these posts.

Good luck HeilCNC, one of the points I was making is that it may be a futile battle looking for people to make software for a 20 year old OS. I hope you find what you are looking for.