[pistons]

I'm working on starting up a new business to do small production runs (1-2 parts) and prototyping. I have quite a bit of experience with the Bridgeport knee mills with CNC but unfortunately I don't have the space for that size of a machine. I've been reading through this forum on benchtop mills but still can't decide what's best.

My ideal mill would have the functionality, speed, accuracy and stability of a Bridgeport knee mill but in a smaller footprint and package. I'm using Solidworks for my modeling and Featurecam for generating toolpaths and have a budget of $10-15k to include tooling. I want the manual feed ability because I'm not getting into massive production runs so I think a CNC only machine (like Tormarch) would be too restrictive. I'd greatly appreciate your honest opinion on which machine(s) I should consider. Please be honest. I realize I may be asking too much out of a benchtop mill, but don't let that stop you from making recommendations.

What to machine: ABS, PC and 6061 AL stock. 1/2-3/4" end mill,
Power: 110 or 220 ok. 3 Phase is fine
Specs: R8 taper, CNC pre-installed, 5000 RPM, 2 or 3 axis
Parts: 10"x10"x5" (probably over-estimating)

Thanks again.

[awetmore]

Why not consider two mills, one manual, one CNC?

I have a Grizzly G3102 (6x26) as my manual mill. I have a Taig CNC as my CNC mill. The manual mill is great for quick one-off things which only need a few basic operations. It is beefy and can do quick work in steel. I also use it for mitering bicycle tubes (I build bicycle frames as a hobby).

The Taig is great for smaller complex objects or ones which I'll be making multiple runs of. It is fast in aluminum and dependable enough for me to walk away from it and let it run on it's own.

I have under $5000 invested in both (including tooling), but also bought both of them used.

I had looked into CNC'ing the G3102, but I'm glad that I got the Taig instead. Small CNC is a lot more affordable and turnkey, but still has a good work envelope. Doing everything CNC on the G3102 would have made a lot of my manual operations more difficult.

[307startup]

The Tormach is perfect for prototyping, it's not really a production machine. This is the type of work that this machine was really designed for.

I don't see the draw to "manual feed capability". Just use the MPG and jog the table where you want. Don't sell the machine short because you haven't used one.

I'm working on starting up a new business to do small production runs (1-2 parts) and prototyping. I have quite a bit of experience with the Bridgeport knee mills with CNC but unfortunately I don't have the space for that size of a machine. I've been reading through this forum on benchtop mills but still can't decide what's best.

My ideal mill would have the functionality, speed, accuracy and stability of a Bridgeport knee mill but in a smaller footprint and package. I'm using Solidworks for my modeling and Featurecam for generating toolpaths and have a budget of $10-15k to include tooling. I want the manual feed ability because I'm not getting into massive production runs so I think a CNC only machine (like Tormarch) would be too restrictive. I'd greatly appreciate your honest opinion on which machine(s) I should consider. Please be honest. I realize I may be asking too much out of a benchtop mill, but don't let that stop you from making recommendations.

What to machine: ABS, PC and 6061 AL stock. 1/2-3/4" end mill,
Power: 110 or 220 ok. 3 Phase is fine
Specs: R8 taper, CNC pre-installed, 5000 RPM, 2 or 3 axis
Parts: 10"x10"x5" (probably over-estimating)

Thanks again.

[pistons]

I don't mean to sell the Tormach short due to my inexperience with it. The reason I'd like to be able be to run the Mill without toolpaths and G-code is for those basic machining requirements - a simple pass/slot, squaring up stock, drilling a few holes. Instead of having to draw up my part in SW and then get toolpaths in featurecam, or creating the toolpaths in featurecam from scratch, on the Bridgeports, I'd just put my part in the vise and go (of course I was using a digital output). Why CNC when you don't really have to.

Sounds like you have experience with the Tormach. Is what I'm describing as far as "manual feed" doable? What do you mean by MPG?

[awetmore]

I don't see the draw to "manual feed capability". Just use the MPG and jog the table where you want. Don't sell the machine short because you haven't used one.

There are benefits to being able to feel the resistance as you are using a tool. With CNC you lose some of that feedback. For well known cuts in well known materials the feedback isn't necessary. The types of machining will define what is going to work for you.

My bicycle tubing cutting is a good example. I take the head out of tram and use hole saws. Hole saws are highly variable in quality (even for the same model from the same manufacturer) and bicycle tubing can vary a lot in hardness. I wouldn't want to use CNC for those operations because I think that the feedback that I get back through the machine is too valuable.

Since the original poster didn't describe what he'll be making in too much detail it is difficult to know if manual is useful or not.

[307startup]

Running a CNC in manual mode is very doable, no G-code required. You just turn the spindle on to the appropriate speed, with the appropriate tool, and jog the machine in X, Y or Z with your MPG (manual pulse generator). Some machines have a dial wheel, others use direction keys. For slightly more complicated operations, you can use canned features (Wizards on Mach3) that don't require generating programs, you pick the appropriate one, insert the required data fields, and the machine does the work. Bolt-hole circles are a good example of a built-in wizard.

I don't mean to sell the Tormach short due to my inexperience with it. The reason I'd like to be able be to run the Mill without toolpaths and G-code is for those basic machining requirements - a simple pass/slot, squaring up stock, drilling a few holes. Instead of having to draw up my part in SW and then get toolpaths in featurecam, or creating the toolpaths in featurecam from scratch, on the Bridgeports, I'd just put my part in the vise and go (of course I was using a digital output). Why CNC when you don't really have to.

Sounds like you have experience with the Tormach. Is what I'm describing as far as "manual feed" doable? What do you mean by MPG?

[Teyber12]

just reading your first post, mikini or tormach scream out. very popular mills.

[cjdavis618]

Pistons, I can agree about the need to do "Quick" things with a Manual mill. I felt the same way, until I learned more about Mach3, "newfangled" plugin and some of the options like the jog pendant and the tab screen on Mach 3.

Why don't you download the demo of Mach3 and install it without the parallel port driver and see if you think it will work for you. The tormach and most of the small mills use Mach3 as a controller and it is worth the look.

I think you are looking at this from the wrong point. Even though it doesn't have handles on the mill. The software is what moves the machine. The software will make the difference here.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Pistons, I can agree about the need to do "Quick" things with a Manual mill. I felt the same way, until I learned more about Mach3, "newfangled" plugin and some of the options like the jog pendant and the tab screen on Mach 3.

Why don't you download the demo of Mach3 and install it without the parallel port driver and see if you think it will work for you. The tormach and most of the small mills use Mach3 as a controller and it is worth the look.

I think you are looking at this from the wrong point. Even though it doesn't have handles on the mill. The software is what moves the machine. The software will make the difference here.

Mach3 with a good pendant with an MPG beats the heck out of manual operation any day. You can set the pendant up to jog at a constant, pre-set speed as long as you spin the MPG, making manual milling quick, easy and precise. I don't miss the handwheels one bit.

Regards,
Ray L.

[pistons]

Greatly appreciate the honest feedback. Seems the Tormach PCNC 770 might be the best way to go. My hesitation to "let go" of handwheels is just from my years on the Bridgeport. Most of my experience has been running the Bridgeport in 2 axis CNC mode, almost always controlling the Z plunge manually. Something about having the Z axis move independently makes me nervous...put the little decimal point in the wrong place and you've broken a endmill (or worse). I think I'll send Tormach an email asking about running the machine with the z-axis disengaged (at least until I get more comfortable) and find out more about the Mach3 Software.

When you guys refer to the jog pendant...are you referring to the jog/shuttle controller that Tormach sells or another product?

From my searching and reading this forum I think I would be disappointed if I went the route of getting a $3-5k mill with a CNC retrofit like a Grizzley, IH etc. The stability and accuracy would be an issue considering that I want to produce parts for other people.

[cjdavis618]

I totally understand about the handwheels. I built an SX3 CNC using the best parts I could find, but even still. I wish I could have bought a Tormach instead and just went to work using it. I spend more time "Upgrading" my SX3 than making anything with it. On the other hand, I know everything I have done to it and know what to expect. If I have a problem, it is pretty quickly solved.

I couldn't do that with a tormach without "tinkering"

As for disengaging the Zaxis. you could lock it in place by changing the "ports and pins" options and just shut that axis off by a single mouse click. That will shut it down all together. But, the pendants force you to select the axis, then hold a button down before the table will jog. It is pretty safe in regards to accidentally moving the wrong axis.

I would like to get a 770 myself and someday may sell my SX3 setup and move that way. I'm sure there would be ways to "Upgrade" your tormach if you had to have handles. At least on the X and Y axis.

[rowbare]

Trust me, you are going to love the 3 axis motion. Maybe put a fixture plate on top of the table to protect it while you go for the eStop and forge ahead. Any apprehension you have will go away really fast.

The PCNC 770 sounds like a sweet machine. I am sure that you will get good mileage from it.

bob

[ChrisPDX]

If you have confidence in your CAM system's simulation and you review the code for anything unusual you can be fairly certain you will not plunge into the table. For extra confidence, you can "cut air" first, machine wax, or use a tooling plate as others have mentioned. Perhaps a more major concern is running or cutting into things like vises, clamps, etc. For me, CNC is all about figuring out 90% of the problems in a nice quiet room with a computer. The extra issues that come up when operating the machine will hopefully be fairly minor and non-destructive. In my experience, the times I have run my CNC in "manual" mode by jogging with my pendant or typing simple lines of G-code have been less worrisome than running lengthy code for the first time. Moving the machine through the controls quickly becomes as second nature as hand wheels, albeit without the feedback.

-Chris

[pistons]

Well, you guys have all convinced me. I sent Tormach an email with a long list of questions and they responded in a day. I'm happy with their answers and think the 770 is going to work great for me. Appreciate everyone's feedback.

[g29cc]

Check out Novakon's machines. More machine for the money if you ask me.

I just bought a NM 200 mill which is slightly larger then Tormachs 1100 mill.

Novakon has a NM145 that is shipping now. And again is slightly larger with more room then the Tormach.

I checked out both and went with Novakon for the overall size , price and awesome customer service.

www.novakon.net

Here is a link to the NM 145 machine

http://novakon.net/nm-145.html