[fizzissist]

Spain’s Solar Deals on Edge of Bankruptcy as Subsidies Founder

"..Solar investors such as Vilimelis were lured by a 2007 law passed by the government of Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero that guaranteed producers a so-called solar tariff of as much as 44 cents per kilowatt-hour for their electricity for 25 years — more than 10 times the 2007 average wholesale price of about 4 cents per kilowatt-hour paid to mainstream energy suppliers...

...Now Vilimelis and more than 50,000 other Spanish solar entrepreneurs face financial disaster as the policy makers contemplate cutting the price guarantees that attracted their investment in the first place."



Spain's Solar Deals on Edge of Bankruptcy as Subsidies Founder - Bloomberg

[handlewanker]

It just goes to show you, too soon and too little, or to put it plainly.....Oil is still being pumped and coal is also still being mined, so is the Nuke stuff doing whatever Nuke stuff does, atom blasting I suppose you could call it, but for all that......the timing of the powers that be are so far out of perception it makes you weep.

I'll put it more plainly for the simple truth.....supposing I planted Carrots all over my one acre back garden instead of buying them at the market.....only problem is the carrots cost me $4 a Kg whereas they cost $2 a kg at the market....but I heard that the market was going to close down due to it being as old as the hills and needing a rebuild....so it seemed I'd make a bomb selling carrots when the shortage arrived....only thing is the market just kept on selling with no actual end date in sight....so my carrots at this moment in time cost me more in labour to plant and sell than they're worth.....going into production too soon is the same problem as making solar panels while the oil and coal etc are on the menu.

The bonus could be if'n the Spaniards want to get rid of the solar panels at half price just to break even......every cloud etc etc.....which in the Spanish case is probably the thing to do seeing as how the panels only have a life of 25 years or so and the oil and coal reserves are estimated to last longer than that.

The critical event would be when the oil and coal are top dollar, but that would mean the panels would cost even more to produce then, and the bottom liners would knock them in the head again.

I believe that the fuel cell is the way of the future, seeing as how they can produce electricity from many sustainable sources, and the technology is relatively simple and clean.
Ian.

[phil c]

Some good stuff here, and some nonsense.

I'll start with the nonsense. Global Warming/Antrhopogenic Global Warming/Catastrophic Global Warmin/Climate Change/ Catastrophic Climate Change/Extreme Weather/Weather Weirding is a potent POLITCAL myth. It was literally designed by a cadre of radicals(think Obama's buddy Bill Ayers, a convicted terrorist killer as a member of the Weather Underground/Weathermen in the 1960's) who wanted to take control of the economy. James Hansen came along at a convenient time and turned a 17 year trend in a few measured temperatues into Global Warming. The truth is there is no measured DATA that confirms that the changes since about 1860 to the present are anything but a normal rebound in temperature from the unusually low temperatures from about 1600-1880 AD. The total warming since 1880 until 1997 was about 0.8degC(~1 deg F) with very little if any increase since.. The average tempertures are at a record high for the period we have measurements, but are not any higher than around the year 1000 AD, the time of Lief Ericksson and Greenland, or many other time since the end of the last ice age. The change in temperatures is above the noise level in the temperature record. One sign of this is the ever-changing name for the phenomenon- as above. Many scientist have shown that the original thinking behind global warming has not held up and that dire predictions from the IPCC and climate models are not reflected in the real world. The climate is much more complex than anyone can deal with scientifically right now.

Renewable Energy- first off I'd like to thank all you loyal taxpayers for paying for 1/3 of my solar panels. Our house is now electricity neutral for the year, they knock off the usage spikes in the summer for AC, and we get a substantial sum back from uneconomic Renewable Energy Credits. All in all the return on investment is about 6.5%. Thanks.

As others have pointed out, ALL the renwable energy sources have a small contribution to the overall power production. A little touted fact is that wind and solar require a Kvh per Kwh backup from a primary generator such as a gas-fired, open cycle turbine. Fairly clean energy, but nearly as expensive as the wind and solar installations because it is less efficient tha a combined cycle gas turbine. A CCGT is a baseload generator, like a coal plant or a nuke. It can't be turned off and on or run at partial power quickly or efficiently. The backup cost is never figured into the total cost for wind and solar, so any price comparisons are meaningless.

Wind turbines kill several thousand endangered species birds every year. If you or I killed one, or even pick up a shed feather from a Bald Eagle, we can be subject to a $20,000 fine and time in jail. Wind turbines are exempt!

What do you think about burning up food(corn) to replace gasoline at twice the cost with ZERO benefit. It has starved some 15-20 million people to death already, due to higher global food prices. All the other biofules may work out someday, but none are ready for prime time. And when they do get developed they will take away land from food, lumber, scenery, and people. Mark that against the fact that photosynthesis is at best 2% efficient. It would take a large fraction of the continental US to produce the energy we use every day.

How about nuclear? Well, a submarine reactor(pressurized water reactor) is not very safe, not cheap, and requres a huge investment to build a huge plant. After WW-II the atomic energy agency decided to jump on PWR's as the coming thing(a VERY bad decision), without reseraching other, safer, cheaper, more efficient designs for commercial electricity. Around 1965 they did test a liquid metal thorium reactor at Oakridge. It ran for about 5 years and proved that reactors of that type were feasible, safe, and could burn up almost any radioactive material at over 90%.The main problem was it could not be used to produce plutionium for bombs, so they dropped it. IF China and India get their act together we will be albe to buy this type of reactor from them in the future. It is the most safe, efficient, non-proliferable(weapons) reactor design available. The main reason is that it requires an attached chemical processing plant to process the reactor product to remove contaminants that poison the nuclear reaction. It also does not produce any elements that are suitable for atomi or hydrogen bombs. Fortunately, this type of reactor, nick named LFTR, does not produce any long-lived nuclear waste, except for the materials the actual reactor is constructed from.

That's it in a nutshell. I know some of you will have a hard time cracking that nut, but start reading widely and critically. The science behind "global warming" is dodgy at best.

[phil c]

correction- the change in the temperature is BARELY above the noise in the data.

[Khalid]

Whatever, but at-least i am struggling my best to be environ friendly... My some work:
GREEN ENERGY ADVENTURE BY MECHANICAL ENGINEER

[fizzissist]

I think I like this guy.

[handlewanker]

I wonder what Pickens would have to say.......Eco friendly, no doubt, but still not economically viable.
Ian.

[Khalid]

I wonder what Pickens would have to say.......Eco friendly, no doubt, but still not economically viable.
Ian.

Depends you want to save the earth or your pocket...whos pickens

[Geof]

...whos pickens

T. Boone Pickens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Google 't boone pickens wind turbines' and you will find lots of links about him.

You might also be interested in the link I give in this thread:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/enviro...t_hot_air.html

[handlewanker]

Hi Khalid, don't get me wrong, I think you're work with the windmill design is great, just not economically viable, given the amount of wind required to produce the output reqd or anticipated.

The big problem with windmills is the size they need to be to capture the energy the average wind foce contains at any one place, usually far from where it's required, and that also means transmission technology to get the power from A to B, and it's also not very constant in it's output.

Now if you were experimenting with water derived powere sources, I think you might just have a valid resource......most people populate areas where water is available, and as water is the oldest known source of power harnessing, that is where the answer lies for future energy supplies.

The World will eventually scrape the bottom of the barrel when oil, coal and even Nuke sources run dry, then and only then will alternative sources come into their own....who but a fool utilises energy sources that cost 4 to 5 times the existing fossil fuel price when supplies of fossil fuel (that have been tapped for hundreds of years) are still yielding viable supplies, and for at least several hundred years to come.

If you believe that the fossil fuel useage is the cause of adverse weather patterns, IE, AGW, you are just one of the people that suscribe to that hypothesis, and there are plenty more that disagree too....yours to choose which way the "wind is blowing"......LOL.

BTW, I personally favour the Savonias wind turbine design, for it's compactness, but I can't say if it is better than the Don Quixote type with flapping sails in the sunset etc.

T. Boone Pickens is the Texas guy that was heavily into wind turbines, but sold out when he realised that particular resource is too little, too soon and too expensive for the current needs of cheap energy production from wind alone and therfore a waste of money, when fossil fuel resources are still freely available and will continue to be widely used, even though the Green lobby is promoting Doomsday for the distant future with fossil fuel useage in it's current useage.

I believe that Pakistan has more than it's fair share of moving water to make it energy rich compared to indulging in wind related technology that originated in the Roman times, even though the electrical side of it is relatively recent, just a little over a hundred years from conception to mass reliance.
Ian.

[shimoari]

first of all its necessary to reduce the use of AC AND REFRIGERATORS as the CFC gas of them is very much threatning for our ozone layer and is just breaking it day by day.......

[fizzissist]

first of all its necessary to reduce the use of AC AND REFRIGERATORS as the CFC gas of them is very much threatning for our ozone layer and is just breaking it day by day.......

Ahhhhhhh.... We see you've done your homework...

You've stopped using yours, right?

[shimoari]

Ahhhhhhh.... We see you've done your homework...

You've stopped using yours, right?

i am not saying to stop using them but we could try to reduce their usage and through this we will save elctricity as well as harm to enviroment will be very much controlled from this..... as i am using refrigerator but stopped using AC.....

[fizzissist]

i am not saying to stop using them but we could try to reduce their usage and through this we will save elctricity as well as harm to enviroment will be very much controlled from this..... as i am using refrigerator but stopped using AC.....

I'm anxiously awaiting your explanation of how exactly the gas in a closed system is causing anything but cold beer or a comfortable living room..

...And to let you know how proud we all are that you have made the ultimate sacrifice by not using AC.... I'm awaiting your explanation of just exactly how you're protecting the environment from the evils of a refrigerant gas by not using something.... That is, you "stopped using AC", so presumably you did use it, meaning you still have it??

Since you've chosen CFCs as a topic, and you want to save the ozone hole... Can you tell me how big it was in 1940? Maybe we can use that as a starting reference, since that was when refrigeration was starting to come of age.

...edit:
Here's something for you to read with your morning coffee...
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1210/1210.1498.pdf

[handlewanker]

I can imagine 'Ol Shimo turning off the AC now, it's bloody Winter in UK and that's cold as in cold enough to freeze the conkers off the brass monkeys.....LOL.

I expect when the "Climate change" occurs again in the Northern Hemisphere next year in August , maybe, then the AC will get trundled out of the shed and once again pose a threat to all mankind, making it the most used weapon of mass destruction of all time.

Perhaps the Yanks will launch another invasion to prevent all the AC's being turned on, but I expect Mother Nature, being the sour faced 'Ol Cow, will just turn the weather off and you'll get rain and more rain, just like it always was.

One thing's for sure, if the AC useage is compared to the smoke emissions from the Tasmanian fire pollution, then either they're all leaking and need regassing, EVERY DAY, or the AC's don't work anyway and never have.
Ian.

[Khalid]

I believe that Pakistan has more than it's fair share of moving water to make it energy rich compared to indulging in wind related technology that originated in the Roman times, even though the electrical side of it is relatively recent, just a little over a hundred years from conception to mass reliance.
Ian.

God gave us:
1- Good fresh water streams/rivers
2- A windy offshore capable to generate 3000MW of wind power

The option 1 is we are wasting the river water due to stupid politicians and masses. Thanks God, we are having first 50MW total 28 wind mills installed and started generating electricity last year onward.

[fizzissist]

God gave us:
1- Good fresh water streams/rivers
2- A windy offshore capable to generate 3000MW of wind power

The option 1 is we are wasting the river water due to stupid politicians and masses. Thanks God, we are having first 50MW total 28 wind mills installed and started generating electricity last year onward.

God also gave you stupid people who think no further than their noses.
Do you have even the slightest clue as to the long term known consequences (never mind the unintended and unknown consequences) of damming or diversion for water energy extraction? Have you ever heard of the basic law of physics which says you don't get something for nothing??

No wonder 1/2 of your country is still in the stone age.

(.... in anticipation of a handiewankie anti-american tirade, yes, I know. We're on our way there too.)

I offer for your consideration the 3 Gorges dam. An ecological disaster in the making.

[Khalid]

God also gave you stupid people who think no further than their noses.

I said masses..that mean the peoples:stickpoke

Yes, our nation need revival, independence from the Pakistani peoples with foreign agendas .. Along the stupids (majority) we have some genius, innovative guys too...the fact is fact and i do not want to defend the corrupts,filthy, rascals here...

[phil c]

Khalid, go back and do some homework. Please read something besides propaganda. Something by engineers and economists.

Both wind and solar are very periodic and require a watt for watt stationary power plant for backup. The current power grid can probably tolerate somewhere in the range of 15% of the power being wind and solar. More will cause serious instabilities and huge costs- rolling brownouts everywhere, routinely. Wind kills birds and bats including bald eagles and California condors. Solar generates a lot of toxic wastes during manufacture.

One plan I read about for total wind/solar generation for the US was deemed feasible by the authors. It required about 250% more base load capacity than currently used. Something like 10% of the countryside would be devoted to power generation, much of it in the most scenic, pristine places- mountains, high ridges, Death Valley, seashores and vistas. It required total replacement of the current power grid with a smart grid. The smart grid would have complete control of power generation and delivery, down to the individual power meter. It would have to waste about 1/3 of the power shuffling electricity around from windy/sunny places to those that weren't.

[handlewanker]

God also gave you stupid people who think no further than their noses.
Do you have even the slightest clue as to the long term known consequences (never mind the unintended and unknown consequences) of damming or diversion for water energy extraction? Have you ever heard of the basic law of physics which says you don't get something for nothing??


No wonder 1/2 of your country is still in the stone age.

(.... in anticipation of a handiewankie anti-american tirade, yes, I know. We're on our way there too.)

I offer for your consideration the 3 Gorges dam. An ecological disaster in the making.

Hi Fizz, not that you'll notice the reply, there is a quote I think aptly applies to all those who ignore the inevitable and cling to the impossible dream......"never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers"........I quite like people, well, some of them, but in large numbers they impact on my food chain and as I require food to survive....... THERE'S JUST TOO MANY OTHER BLOODY MOUTHS TO FEED.

If you can't understand that simple logical conclusion, which I in my humble stupidity recognise succinctly, then you have been walking around with your noble head deeply embedded in your rectum.....for quite a long time now, or perhaps you prefer to ignore that fact too.

It's a fact that you can't unspill spilt milk, or successfully unsqueeze the toothpaste tube as far as the existing population growth has manifested itself, but you can do something equally as practical by tying a knot in your hairy pride and joy and support the notion that too much is too much.

I've said all that before, but it went over like a damp turd.....everyone noticed it, but everyone also preferred to step around it and avoid it.
Ian.