[3D Accuracy]

Hello everyone,

Are there any members out there from the USA who have had experience buying or repairing offshore molds, dies or machined parts from China, India or Portugal?

The majority of companies I've talked to have had mostly negative experiences with offshore vendors. I'm in the process of creating a resource for mold shops, injection molders and die casters so they can educate their customers on the pitfalls of using offshore mold factories and I would appreciate your help.

If you have any experience at all no matter how small I would like to hear from you. Please send me a private message or direct e-mail.

Have a terrific weekend!

Robert
3D Accuracy

[universalfab]

Sure have, we do alot of sheetmetal fabrication and use dies in are press break. We go to auctions once and a while and bought some press break dies, most of them were all U.S.A. made. Which is what we expected until we got the pallet load home and looked through it. Once we got to the bottom of it we seen some chinese stamped garbage. Also just to let everyone know this pallet was all new dies. The male and female matching dies didn't match up together worth a dam and varied in height from one end to the other. Rough edges and just total garbage, garbage thats exactly what I expected from china. Tried them and they bent horribly off. You want it done right you go U.S.A. There's been other things I've messed around with at friends houses that they bought chinese which were also total crap. Mills, lathes, tooling for mills and lathes, drill press, hand tools, power tools and all were and are total garbage. They ask me how can you afford to always be buying U.S.A.? We buy not only new but used and it always pays off in the short and long term. U.S.A. made tooling and machines do the job and they do the job good. Chinese and other 3rd world foreign tooling and machines are completely inferior to the U.S.A.'s. When I buy U.S.A. I know what to expect, when you buy chinese you don't know what to expect, it's a gamble that your going to lose.

[universalfab]

Good thread, sick of all the fake threads from the chinese garbage salesman.

[3D Accuracy]

Hello universalfab,

Great! Thanks for sharing your experience, it's exactly the type of thing I've been hearing from others as well.

It seems like many people have this false impression that the guy down the street is buying molds, dies and machined parts from China, India and Portugal and they're getting such a good deal. They feel pressured, often times by customers and OEM's, to do the same in order to compete. This is a huge mistake but they don't realize it.

The reality for the most part is they are all getting poor quality molds, dies and machined parts that need costly repairs in order to produce anything. None of them are experiencing an economic advantage using offshore sources, they just think the next guy is so they keep doing it. Often time the cycle times on the molds are much longer than they should be which drives up the part price and takes a big gouge out of their profits. Plus for the life of the mold or die they're struggling with inferior quality.

I'm creating a resource where everyone who has had such an experience can share their story. I want this to be a place where you can point your customer who is using or considering using offshore vendors so they can read the experiences of 20, 30 or even 100 other individuals who have had a negative experience. This will have a much greater impact on their decision than each of us telling our own individual experience and hopefully it will cause them to purchase the molds, dies and machined parts from companies here in the USA.

With your permission, I would like to reprint your experience. Please PM or e-mail with your initials and state you're in. Your experience will be reprinted to look like this:

"Sure have, we do alot of sheetmetal fabrication ... (middle part of your story) ... it's a gamble that your going to lose." your initials, your state, USA

I'll PM you a link where you'll be able to see it along with the experiences of others.

Thanks again for your help, I sincerly appreciate it. I hope to hear from others as well.

Have a terrific weekend!

Robert
3D Accuracy

[3D Accuracy]

Hello universalfab,

I was just reading your post again and I had a thought. I wonder if the Chinese dies that were hidden at the bottom of the pallet so they could be pawned off on some unsuspecting buyer were what put the original purchaser of those dies out of business, hence the auction.

If the cheap Chinese dies couldn't make product there's no way for them to be amortized ... not worth their weight in toilet paper ... the original buyer of those dies would have been better off just flushing his money down the toilet! That way he wouldn't have had to waste more time and money getting rid of the garbage.

Have a terrific weekend!

Robert
3D Accuracy

[universalfab]

3D Accuracy I sure will do that. I completely agree with the comments you've made. Yeah that's exactly what it was, they put the chinese garbage at the bottom hoping for some sucker to by them. Well the poor sucker was me, luckilly most of it was U.S.A. made and gave us no problems whatsoever and the dies are still working flawlessly today. If you want it done right the first time around go U.S.A. all the way!!

[MrWild]

The company I worked for bought a pierce and form die set from over seas. It looked gorgeous and the one engineer was rubbing in that we couldn't touch it for what he paid. Everything was ground including the die shoe. HEH, we put it in the try out press... GARBAGE. But shipping it back was not an option. I was told to fix it. Everything was out of tolerance. The dowel pins either fell out or were galled and un-removeble. It was a gold plated turd. Ended up building a new one from scratch.

[3D Accuracy]

3D Accuracy I sure will do that. I completely agree with the comments you've made. Yeah that's exactly what it was, they put the chinese garbage at the bottom hoping for some sucker to by them. Well the poor sucker was me, luckilly most of it was U.S.A. made and gave us no problems whatsoever and the dies are still working flawlessly today. If you want it done right the first time around go U.S.A. all the way!!

Hey universalfab,

Thanks for your PM with your intitials and state. I'm going to edit your second reply into the first one for more impact and reprint them in my resource. I'll PM you when I have it finished.

The company I worked for bought a pierce and form die set from over seas. It looked gorgeous and the one engineer was rubbing in that we couldn't touch it for what he paid. Everything was ground including the die shoe. HEH, we put it in the try out press... GARBAGE. But shipping it back was not an option. I was told to fix it. Everything was out of tolerance. The dowel pins either fell out or were galled and un-removeble. It was a gold plated turd. Ended up building a new one from scratch.

Hello MrWild,

Thank you for sharing, this is another great story that others need to hear about. With your permission, I would like to reprint your experience. Please PM or e-mail with your initials and state you're in.

I'll PM you a link where you'll be able to see it along with the experiences of others.

Thanks to both of you for your help, I sincerly appreciate it.

Anyone else have a good story to share?

Have a terrific weekend!

Robert
3D Accuracy

[roninB4]

There's a number of injection molds that are purchased by Denso offshore. Sometimes they're Korean, Chinese, or Japanese. The Korean I can't speak for, the Japanese are good but expensive. The Chinese (not to be bashing them) are of a wide variance in quality. Unless you're right there, they might/might not substitute types of steels used (gee steel is steel isn't it.....) in a mold/die. Any corner cutting that improves profit will likely be taken regardless of the consequences. There's even a paper on the department drive that lists the pitfalls of buying in China for the unwary buyer. China can make some acceptable tooling, but don't expect to get it unless you witness the process. I was once told by a Chinese girl I dated to NOT trust a Chinese businessman. She was right.

For the most part Outsourcing was embraced by those that knew the price of everything and the value of nothing. I hope they are remembered as those that helped trash a once thriving industry.

[3D Accuracy]

Hello roninB4,

Another great experience, thank you for sharing it. This is the type of story I hear repeatedly from customers, suppliers and others in the mold making, plastic molding, die casting and machining industries. It's a very common problem but I think few people realize the extensiveness of it. This is why I'm collecting experiences to place them all together in one resource for people to use and learn from.

With your permission I would like to reprint it on my resource for others to read. I will PM you.

Anyone else have a good story to share?

Have a terrific day!

Robert
3D Accuracy

[vulcanmold]

We are sorry for the bad experience for buy molds from China,
Not all the mold makers in China are bad,
There are a lot of Mold manufacturers in China work molds and dies for big companies in worldwide, and keep a long term business relation.
I believe, to get what you expected quality, it is a careful job, choose the correct supplier is the key.

[Khalid]

Robert,
The discussion seems that someone here will soon going to offer high quality Molds making service .. No offense intended, but i have seen such threads for the past 6 years and these ended up providing their own services to the community...

[3D Accuracy]

Robert,
The discussion seems that someone here will soon going to offer high quality Molds making service .. No offense intended, but i have seen such threads for the past 6 years and these ended up providing their own services to the community...

What facts do you have to make such an erroneous statement about my services? Absolutely none!

Or is your true reason for making an off topic post here to spam advertise your services with links in your signature? I'm not interested!

You may think this is good for the community but I have seen this behavior of spam advertising US forums from factories in China and other 3rd world countries destroy their usefulness. On many forums this will get you banned!

Consider this conversation dead and please don't post to this thread with off topic dribble.

Robert
3D Accuracy

[universalfab]

If china can't make there molds, then china can't make anything worth a **** "even with your help they still make garbage". Why do you help china mass produce and drive our economy further down? I know you need to eat, but I was tought "this was pertaining to hotrods" by my grandfather if you can't do it yourself then you don't need it. I think if a entire country can't figure it out, then they should be destined to failure. This is BS, we should be the ones selling everyone else products. This thread and you robert turned out to be very disappointing. Right now I don't think much would change my mind about you, but I would like to hear some kind of argument.

[3D Accuracy]

If china can't make there molds, then china can't make anything worth a **** "even with your help they still make garbage". Why do you help china mass produce and drive our economy further down? I know you need to eat, but I was tought "this was pertaining to hotrods" by my grandfather if you can't do it yourself then you don't need it. I think if a entire country can't figure it out, then they should be destined to failure. This is BS, we should be the ones selling everyone else products. This thread and you robert turned out to be very disappointing. Right now I don't think much would change my mind about you, but I would like to hear some kind of argument.

Hold your horses universalfab,

I'm on your side and I agree with you 100%. Read my post from 10/20 again. The subject is "forget Chinese mold factories" and the post goes on to explain why.

When I'm in China, as I currently am now, I'm only here to help a customer in the USA, NOT the Chinese mold factory. These customers have problems and want to get their mold/s out of China asap! This gives me the opportunity to point out all the problems with doing business in China and redirect future molds to be made in the USA where they should have been made in the first place. My goal is to keep this work in the USA and keep US companies busy!

I have a very strict policy concerning China. I never provide them with help or any form of education, never tell them how things are done in the USA or how to do something and never explain why the customer wants something a particular way. Most of the mold factories in China can't or are unwilling to follow instructions anyway and doom themselves.

I even block the IP addresses of all Chinese mold factories so they don't have access to the information on my website. I don't know of any other company who does this. By not doing so many US companies are inadvertently providing a free education to the very same people who are taking the work from them!

Also just to let you know, next week I'm being introduced to the head of the NTMA who is pushing a "Re-shoring" policy of his own and I hope to join forces and share information with him to help push the cause.

I have also been asked to give a speech by the AMBA (American Mold Builders Association) regarding Chinese mold factories and all the problems associated with doing business in China. I will be doing so the next time I'm in Chicago.

There is also a major trade magazine that would like to write an article about my efforts and provide links to the information about the problems with Chinese mold factories that I have posted online.

So you see, I'm on your side and I'm doing everything I can to keep business and manufacturing here in the USA.

The real culprit here are the OEM's who pressure injection molders to take their molds offshore in the first place. It is these companies who have eroded the US economy and taken away the manufacturing jobs. For example, I have heard from more than one source that the three major US auto industry companies have dictated that up to 80% of their injection molds be manufactured in China! This takes billions of dollars out of the USA and seriously erodes US manufacturing. On the other hand the two major Japanese auto manufacturers who have manufacturing facilities in the USA have their injection molds made in the USA. No wonder the quality of their automobiles are so much better, they know where to get the job done properly.

One way to make a difference is to be aware of which companies are having their products made offshore. This will allow you to decide whether or not you want to support their decision to take away US manufacturing jobs by not purchasing their products. I recommend you search the internet for US made products no matter what it is you want to buy. Every time I need to purchase something this is the first thing I do.

I don't want to post links here on this forum to information I've posted online so I'm going to send them to you in a PM. Read them and then let me know what you think. Anyone else who is interested send me a PM and I'll provide you with the links as well.

Have a terrific day!
Robert
3D Accuracy

[Khalid]

Hi Robert,
"What facts do you have to make such an erroneous statement about my services? Absolutely none!"
Why you thought I am pointing toward You.. Did i mentioned your name????

Or is your true reason for making an off topic post here to spam advertise your services with links in your signature? I'm not interested!
I just expressed my opinion, and my opinion is not Offtopic...Everybody has right to post/warn others...

My signatures blogs are related to my CNC work and I am the member of CNCZone... One thing more i do not charges for Laser scanning services and it is free of cost..So i am having no benefits at all...

Robert, please think Positive...
TC

[3D Accuracy]

Hi Robert,
"What facts do you have to make such an erroneous statement about my services? Absolutely none!"
Why you thought I am pointing toward You.. Did i mentioned your name????

Or is your true reason for making an off topic post here to spam advertise your services with links in your signature? I'm not interested!
I just expressed my opinion, and my opinion is not Offtopic...Everybody has right to post/warn others...

My signatures blogs are related to my CNC work and I am the member of CNCZone... One thing more i do not charges for Laser scanning services and it is free of cost..So i am having no benefits at all...

Robert, please think Positive...
TC

Did I miss the fact that your post was addressed to me? Did you not start the post with my name?

You have a right to your opinion but it's still off topic dribble to this thread. Kill it or start another thread.

Robert
3D Accuracy

[Khalid]

Hi Robert,
I am really happy for whatever you are doing, but i have some similar experiences from others in the past.... The peoples start a Topic gather the sympathy and trust of community and then betray them...
I am writing these lines per my past experiences...Look at my No. of Posts, I have read 100 times more posts from Others...
I am sorry if you are offended but literally it was not pointed toward you... If you respond this post i will give my arguments..So do not respond so that i do not post here...

[Khalid]

Hi Robert,
I am really happy for whatever you are doing, but i have some similar experiences from others in the past.... The peoples start a Topic gather the sympathy and trust of community and then betray them...
I am writing these lines per my past experiences...Look at my No. of Posts, I have read 100 times more posts from Others...
I am sorry if you are offended but literally it was not pointed toward you... If you respond this post i will give my arguments..So do not respond so that i do not post here...

As far as chinese products are concerned, Our economy has captured by china, our industries are closed and Now this Anaconda is moving toward you...

Do You know, we have NOKIA E71 for only 70 dollars with complete Accessories, memory card, batteris, head phone sets etc... So what do you think can you compete?(chair)

[3D Accuracy]

Khalid,

My apologies. I took your original post to be an unjustified projecting directed towards me which is why I defended my position so strongly.

This is a very important issue to me. Anyone who knows me personally knows that what I'm trying to do goes beyond this community, however, I can not make the progress or provide the help which is needed for the manufacturing industries in the USA without the support of this community and others. Betraying this community is not my intention as it would completely undermine what I'm trying to do.

Actually I believe that it is those in the USA who sit on the fence and do nothing that are betraying not only themselves but the entire manufacturing industry. We enjoy having freedom of speech in the USA so I think that everyone should get involved and voice their opinion on this matter.

Most of us in the manufacturing industry made a good living until several years ago when cheap, low quality offshore manufacturing started to flood the US market. This has severely damaged the US economy as many companies started using these offshore services to save money. What many have discovered is that it actually cost them much more doing business offshore in the long run. However, there is still a mistaken belief that they must go offshore in order to compete in the market.

I'm gathering the experiences of those who have used offshore manufacturing services and sharing them with OEM's and other customers so they get an education about what to really expect. It gives them a better picture about the true cost of doing business offshore. These are clearly posted online along with my 14 years of experiences dealing with offshore mold factories. 95% of the people I've talked to have had problems offshore which has also been my experience.

Note that I have never taken an injection mold project offshore and never recommend to others to do so. The only reason I go there is because customers I know decided to have their mold/s made in China and had problems. Because of my experience and knowledge about injection molds they request that I go to China, assess the situation, determine where best to make the needed adjustments and/or repairs and get their mold/s out of the country asap!

So far this year I've kept several projects from going offshore, one was a package of injection molds valued at almost $2,000,000. It won't be going to China as was originally intended. Instead a mold shop or several mold shops in the USA will be seeing this work. I'm sure they'll be grateful for my efforts and I will reap the satisfaction of knowing that I was able to do something for my fellow US citizens who work in the manufacturing industry.

Unlike some who reside here in the USA I have no doubts about which country my loyalties belong to!

Let's just agree that we had a slight misunderstanding and let this rest.

Have a terrific day!
Robert
3D Accuracy

P.S. I'm sorry to hear that China has already destroyed the industry in your country. This is truly unfortunate and should never be allowed to happen. Here in the USA that Anaconda will eventually have it's head cut off, I can guarantee it!