[Cswife]

Trying to work with my hubby on this. So far we have $14K for the mill level 3, $1600 for maintenance and an additional $2200 for multi axis? Now I hear we need to buy custom posts for each and every different axis we use on our 4 machines.

This is getting scary

Is this pretty run of the mill pricing on MC and do people really swallow this whole when they are trying to grow? Whats your story and how much was it to "get in" to a copy?



(flame2)

[Superman]

Welcome

Not exactly sure what your costs would be in US$

but to set yourself up with Mastercam
1st, analyse what sort of product you are going to manufacture. Are you programming using basic wireframe, surfaces or solids. Are the shapes complex

2nd, what machines you are going to control ( make, model, # of axes for each machine and their axis cofigurations )

#1 and #2 together would give you what lowest level of Mastercam that you need. Go higher if possible to allow for future up-skilling and the jobs that would follow

#2 ( axis configuration for each machine ) would indicate what complexity of "post" is required to suit that machine

for example, if you have
a/ 1 HAAS , 3 axis machine centre
b/ 1 HAAS, 4 axis m/c ( 4th axis around X )
c/ 1 Fanuc 2 axis Lathe

you would need only 2 posts ( one for the lathe, one for a 4 axis m/c-the 4 axis post would also post code for the 3axis machine ).
Another post would be required if the machine or control was a different make

but also note, when you purchase Mcam, you are given many generic posts for the common machines, these would require "tweeking" to customize to your shop practices.

You may find that the reseller would do this as part of the package an no additional cost, to get the sale. So add that onto the condition of sale ( proven posts for your machines )

BUT if you have a full 5 axis m/c, mill/turn or other "specialised" machine, then the cost of a "post" can be high, and are an additional cost

[Mike Mattera]

So you need 5 axis programming and 3D surfacing? People do this all the time. "Mastercam is $22,000". Well it really depends what you need to do , or want to do.

Mastercam is upgradable. The cost to add on later is the same cost as buying it all up front.

Tell me what kind of machines you have, How many axis they have and what kind of parts you need to make?

If you walk into a car dealer and say I want this car with all the options, it will be expensive. But do I really need the heated seats if I live in Arizona?

Get what you need now to do the work you do now. Add functionality when you need to add functionality. I've seen people say "I want the 5 axis module, because I might get a 5X machine someday". That means, you dont need it now, so dont buy it now.

You'd be surprise just how much you can get done with a $6000 mill level 1 for everyday "job shop" work and rotary indexing. Make some money with it, then upgrade.

Hope this helps. Let me know what about your machines and parts.

Mike Mattera

[CWJoe]

Just curious, Have you looked into other cam systems? Are you running a stand alone cad product currently?

[foxsquirrel]

Trying to work with my hubby on this. So far we have $14K for the mill level 3, $1600 for maintenance and an additional $2200 for multi axis? Now I hear we need to buy custom posts for each and every different axis we use on our 4 machines.

This is getting scary

Is this pretty run of the mill pricing on MC and do people really swallow this whole when they are trying to grow? Whats your story and how much was it to "get in" to a copy?



(flame2)

The true cost of MasterCrap is alot higher than the actual cash price. You must account for your time calling the rep for help because you overlooked a check box somewhere.

Drawing containment boundries so it can make a toolpath on all the drive surfaces you just selected.

During the SolidCam Demo I watched them select the surface and your done.

The MasterCrap hero's on here keep telling me its due to a lack of training!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sometimes things can be highlighted and other times it will not work unless you restart the program, our rep said to reinstall the .net framework, sounded good to him at the time, it did not help.

The broken tooling from the post getting confused. The list goes on. We paid $17,000 for ours and I regret it.....

As for charging for the posts that is pretty common, solidcam is $400 per post, but if you are running a late model basic VMC that is a little to high.

I am pretty much sold on SolidCam but will be at IMTS show looking at some other vendors so we can replace MCRAP X3.

[Cswife]

I hear ya! If you dont know the software then its a huge burden and if its glitchy why so expensive???? I also dont understand the maintenance fee...if its so good why the maintenance fee?

[WayneHill]

Maintenance fee is usually is a way to keep the current updates available to the registered users. It is a lower cost than the regular price of the software.

The first question to ask yourself is 'What are my current plans and applications for the software?'

There are other softwares out there that will do what MC will do. In fact there are better softwares out there that beat the crap out of MC on price and performance on 2D and 3D work. 4 axis and 5 axis is another matrix to ponder....

I hope I confused you enough.

[foxsquirrel]

Maintenance fee is usually is a way to keep the current updates available to the registered users. It is a lower cost than the regular price of the software.

The first question to ask yourself is 'What are my current plans and applications for the software?'

There are other softwares out there that will do what MC will do. In fact there are better softwares out there that beat the crap out of MC on price and performance on 2D and 3D work. 4 axis and 5 axis is another matrix to ponder....

I hope I confused you enough.

I have to disagree a little regarding the toolpaths, MasterCrap does have a very good algorithm for the toolpaths, I feel that is one of their strongest areas they just don't know how make it stable or actually do the path on the selected drive surface. One of the demos from a potential vendor had extremely poor toolpaths, if you see alot of "sharks teeth" keep on looking.

[Mike Mattera]

"if its glitchy why so expensive?"

The great thing about these forums that that anyone can get on and voice their opinions. But it seems some people just like to come here to complain rather than offer useful answers to peoples questions. Most people will have no trouble using Mastercam to produce parts quickly and efficiently. I run Mastercam all day, everyday and I cant remember the last time I had any kind of problematic "lock up", crash, reboot, or serious file problem.

Mastercam is no more expensive that any other "comparable" Cam product. It's more affordable because it's modular. You only need to buy what you need (as I stated before). Mastercam also has twice the number of features as the nearest competitor.

Maintenance is a more cost effective way for you to keep it up to date. Since other Cad products will be updated and Windows gets updated, these things may effect your Mastercam. Maintenance will keep you up to date with the changes of those other packages and also get you new version releases. Every Cam software company charges maintenance. Mastercam's is one of the lowest.

No software is bug free (You've heard of Windows right?), but Mastercam is stable and does and excellent job producing toolpaths.

I've asked and I know others have asked, how you plan to use it, what kind of parts do you make and what machines you have? Care to share?

Mike Mattera

[foxsquirrel]

.



No software is bug free (You've heard of Windows right?), but Mastercam is stable and does and excellent job producing toolpaths.



Mike Mattera

Mike, at least Windows updates your version of software for free. They don't make me buy a maintenance contract to get the latest stable build of your licensed version. I buy XP and they provide stabilty updates until the end of XP's cycle. I paid for MasterCrap X2 & X3, in my opinion X3 is not stable, I am not asking for the additional features of X4 I JUST WANT A STABLE VERSION OF X3, that is what we paid for and did not get. If our rep would have gotten our posts right I would have continued on with maintenance. Pretty simple, poor service why continue.......


The pricing is rather high relative to the value, perceived and actual value are important. Their solids module is pre AutoCad 2000 flavor, I cannot believe they have the nerve to charge a customer for that when low end parametric software like Alibre can out perform it.

For the most part my X3 is dead, I cannot import Solidworks 2010 files directly. Do you want to call your customer and ask them to resend the file in parasolids format because MasterCrap cannot read the SW 2010. I don't appreciate looking like a bumbling idiot to a potential customer. Hmmmm....... $17,000 and year later and its not very usable do you really think that is right. I guess you can continue and say its lack of training again and again or that I am just a negative person slamming MasterCrap.

I am a novice Solidworks person(less than 6 months experience WITH OUT TRAINING) and hit a snag due to my lack of experience at 10:30 in the evening, too late to call the rep so I googled my problem mating an "O" ring in a groove. Guess what, first result was a link to Solidworks website with a Video that CLEARLY EXPLAINED what I was doing wrong and how to correct it. With MasterCrap I would have had to call our rep during normal business hours and hope for an answer, or better yet, maybe check a checkbox that was 3 levels deep and only after changing some parameter some where.

[littlebrewman]

I have used Mastercam version 9 and decided to buy my own seat of Mastercam X4 for Lathe. cost was $5000 big ones and well worth it.I do not have maint for it but when i call for support sometimes they put me into a go to meeting over the web and show me by taking control of my pc other times i send them a zip2go file and explain my issue and they promptly help me out.I have done just fine with generic posts for mastercam that came with it and have had them modified by my reseller when i need them to be and have never been charged for this as this is support from them. They should be willing to work with you for your needs. I would have them come out and use the software on one of your parts to show you its power. Next i would have them do it with the minimal level of software you would need to get started with using it yourself. After you are satisified i would then just build the software a modula at a time until u have everything you need,I would not buy more then u will need to use as it is a waste of the funds.

[CNCRim]

There are MC hater and Lover, and I don't think there will be the end debate on MasterCAM and Bobcad on this forum. My experience, I found that those are explore/spend enough time to get good at any CAD/CAM they love that software. And for those are critizied, I don't think they spend enough time/effort to get more depth...... I am not speak just for MC but all every other CAD/CAM out there.

[cad01]

congrats on the big step forward. If a shop is looking at a $15-20k seat of software they are headed in the right direction. There are many haters in here that have and will voice their opinion and bash a very strong and productive software. you definatly get what you pay for. I Have experiance with MC, gibbs, and bobcad-cam. MC is by far the most powerfull than any I have tried, and I have tried quite a few. The shop I work for has 4 seats with 5ax, lathe and wire. I am a beta tester for mastercam but not associated with them in any way. But I may be a little bias.

All software will have some bugs. Most of the issues are because people don't know what they are doing and get frusterated and bash such software (not only MC). If you take the time to learn "the right way" it will be a more succesfull transition with any software you choose. So besure to add appropriate training from your reseller. Many of them give great training classes that can be negotiated in the purchase.

Post processors are complex code that tell the software exactly how you want it to output the G-code appropriate for your machine. Not all machines / controllers are the same. If you have 4 machine and they are all the same then you would only need one post. But if the are all different than you will need seperate post for each. MC does come with generic post and with some experiance can be edited by the user. I strongly DO NOT recommend this for someone just switching to a new software. Post are not cheap, nor are they easy to develop. As asked earlier what machines (be spacific on capabilities) do you have. this may help with what posts you may need. All CAM software require post processors. Almost all come with generics, but if you want edit free progamming the a custom post is the best option. It strongly depends on how you want to run your business.

Also what area are you located. There may be a few members willing to supply some consulting in the setup and implamentation of your new cam system. I would also ask your reseller for some referances. One might let you tour and check out there system and how they operate, as long as your not a direct competitor. I hope this Helps, as this applies to all CAM software you may decide on. Again, congrats on the BIG step forward and good luck with your decisions. If I can assist you in any way please fell free to contact me.

[cad01]

at least Windows updates your version of software for free. They don't make me buy a maintenance contract to get the latest stable build of your licensed version. I buy XP and they provide stabilty updates until the end of XP's cycle.

MC will give you all the updates for each release just like windows. Currently I am on MC X4 MU3. There are multiple updates for each release to fix such bugs, and if I recall the latest update for X3 is quite stable. When windows release Vista did you get that upgrade for FREE, what about Windows 7? I bet not! So in other words if you "choose" to keep up with technology you pay some sort of maintance. It is the cost of doing business,and unfortunatly I can see where yours is heading. I'm glad I don not work for you.

If our rep would have gotten our posts right I would have continued on with maintenance.

Post have nothing to do with maintance. A good, solid post can only be built with good communication betweet end-user and reseller or post developer. Not defending the devloper because not all are equal. It is a fairly difficult skill to build. I am still learning all the time, since traveling across the country to Tolland, CT for post training.

Their solids module is pre AutoCad 2000 flavor, I cannot believe they have the nerve to charge a customer for that when low end parametric software like Alibre can out perform it.

This is kind of true. MC was not developed to engineer models/asseblies. That is what CAD software is for. They do however add the function to do it if needed, but that is not there primary focus. This may change in the future, but they offer a much better CAD side than some CAM packages.

I don't appreciate looking like a bumbling idiot to a potential customer.

Why not make it a company standard to accept parasolids. There are many CAD packages available on the market. Try to narrow it down to what is best suited for you and inform your clients of your supported formats. Seems fairly simple to me. The idiot is the one who says we can do it all. This is not possible and only looks bad on you when you can't deliver. Larger companies like to see standards and this is one step of setting the standard. Try it, you might be supprised, and you wouldn't have that incompitant idiot feeling when you have to ask a second or third time for a new format.

I guess you can continue and say its lack of training again and again or that I am just a negative person slamming MasterCrap.

ITS LACK OF TRAINING. Sorry,just had to on that one.

I am a novice Solidworks person(less than 6 months experience WITH OUT TRAINING) and hit a snag due to my lack of experience.

OOPS, Sorry again, ITS A LACK OF TRAINING! This is why formal training is important.

Guess what, first result was a link to Solidworks website with a Video that CLEARLY EXPLAINED what I was doing wrong and how to correct it.

Try www.emastercam.com the user forum is packed full of knowledge and very helpfull peers. There has not been one single instance so far that I have had to contact support yet, exect when my HASP died.

[TheBigJW]

There are two different types of advise you will get here on this forum. Advise from real users who use the software and have had to deal with Mastercam as an end user for years and are fed up with it. And advice like above from people who say the have no monetary interest in the software and offer their advice and the services in the same post. Most people I know are running from Mastercam. You do not get the full complete version of the software you purchase if your maintenance runs out before they finish that version.

John

[cad01]

And advice like above from people who say the have no monetary interest in the software and offer their advice and the services in the same post. John

Not once did I advertise nor did I offer any services. I work "as an employee" for someone else. I will not lie, "I have done side work in the past" but all of it has been engineering services for local inventors. The company I work for paid for me to go to training at CNC so I could write posts for our 27 machines and we are adding at least 3 more the next couple months. For the trip and training it was about $2500 total. You do the math. It was a smart business decision. I currently do not subcontract my post development services, nor will I as long as I work for such company (some of us still have moral and ethical values). I have helped a couple members with posts at no cost, they in return offered a donation. With 4 kids there is no way I will ever turn down money, ever (in any denomination)! Not once did I tell them to pay though, and one of the ones I did was a pretty complexed 5 axis post from scratch. I only did it for the experiance, since I do not want to waste company time scratching my head trying to figure it out. I just mentioned there are sure to be some nearby in the area (where ever they might be?), that would do subcontract consulting for fairly cheap.

[foxsquirrel]

Not once did I advertise nor did I offer any services. I work "as an employee" for someone else. I will not lie, "I have done side work in the past" but all of it has been engineering services for local inventors. The company I work for paid for me to go to training at CNC so I could write posts for our 27 machines and we are adding at least 3 more the next couple months. For the trip and training it was about $2500 total. You do the math. It was a smart business decision. I currently do not subcontract my post development services, nor will I as long as I work for such company (some of us still have moral and ethical values). I have helped a couple members with posts at no cost, they in return offered a donation. With 4 kids there is no way I will ever turn down money, ever (in any denomination)! Not once did I tell them to pay though, and one of the ones I did was a pretty complexed 5 axis post from scratch. I only did it for the experiance, since I do not want to waste company time scratching my head trying to figure it out. I just mentioned there are sure to be some nearby in the area (where ever they might be?), that would do subcontract consulting for fairly cheap.

Tips For Manufacturing Training CD's, DVD's for Mastercam, Edgecam, SolidWorks, Inventor, G-Code Training & More
http://www.tipsforcadcam.com


Gee....... where have I seen this one. The response is always "lack of training" pretty obvious what that guy's agenda is. If it was a legitimate concern to help fellow forum users you would not see the commercial at the end of the post.

MasterCrap out of design or by accident has fostered an entire following of small support companies that feed on MasterCrap's short comings. Do you really think those companies want MasterCrap to pull their head out and make a better product. Of course not, they would no longer be in business themselves.

I don't think the other poster read very well, I SAID SUPPORT MY LICENSED VERSION. I did not say give me the next version like Vista, if you are going to slam me at least get it right....... My HASP expired BEFORE ALL THE UPDATES WERE RELEASED, you also do not have that right either because they will not support it unless your maint. is current. Its obvious you do not have a monetary interest in the product. When you lay out the FULL PRICE for the software from YOUR bank account I would take your "cheer leading" seriously.

[carbidecraters]

Tips For Manufacturing Training CD's, DVD's for Mastercam, Edgecam, SolidWorks, Inventor, G-Code Training & More
http://www.tipsforcadcam.com


Gee....... where have I seen this one. The response is always "lack of training" pretty obvious what that guy's agenda is. If it was a legitimate concern to help fellow forum users you would not see the commercial at the end of the post.

MasterCrap out of design or by accident has fostered an entire following of small support companies that feed on MasterCrap's short comings. Do you really think those companies want MasterCrap to pull their head out and make a better product. Of course not, they would no longer be in business themselves.

I don't think the other poster read very well, I SAID SUPPORT MY LICENSED VERSION. I did not say give me the next version like Vista, if you are going to slam me at least get it right....... My HASP expired BEFORE ALL THE UPDATES WERE RELEASED, you also do not have that right either because they will not support it unless your maint. is current. Its obvious you do not have a monetary interest in the product. When you lay out the FULL PRICE for the software from YOUR bank account I would take your "cheer leading" seriously.

Man that just sounds like a crappy deal! They wouldnt get your version up and running because you werent paying the $1000+ maintenance fee. What was the first $15K for anyways??

We should have a general customer software agreement so if it doesnt work you get your money back. Mastercam reseller should sign it and that way you are covered. To have the errors you have had is unacceptable. have you discussed this with mastercam HQ?

[Superman]

My HASP expired BEFORE ALL THE UPDATES WERE RELEASED, you also do not have that right either because they will not support it unless your maint. is current

sounds a bit rough, you still should have support available ( even phone support )

but, unless I'm mistaken, a HASP doesn't expire, apart from allowing you to run your mastercam and your posts, it enables you to install Maintenance Updates (MU) when they are available before the Mainenance expiry date. ( Check the eMastecam site, you may still have updates available to install )

The same goes for virus software, it should run till the cows come home, but you can only update the virus databases up until the end of the currency period. Obviously you are stuck with a product that is only as good as the latest update pack.

In my opinion, if there are failings in the specific use you purchesed it for, then, this would be a defective product, and thru your trade practices act, should be fully refundable or replaced with a correctly functioning product that is capable of doing the pre-defined criteria, ( that you specifed when initially purchased ) (this is your get out of jail ticket, if things don't work to your satisfaction ).

I know there is other software available that can do the same as Mcam
and I don't advocate that this one is better than that one. It is not my choice, ( or money ) to nake the final decision. I try to supply correct info that others can make a fully informed choice.

So guys, put the knives away, and get back to supplying info for thread starter.

[montyLalor]

I've just started a job where the only CAM software I have is MC. My only other experience with CAM software is OneCNC XR3. I've enjoyed and also been frustrated by the post-editing experience. In my last job we used OneCNC to just post to regular Fanuc. Easy-as! But this job has entailed me creating a working post for the Okuma I run as an edit from a generic HAAS post!

Every time I think I've got it to the point where I feel it'll do what I want, I find a snag. But, like CNCRim mentioned, you need to work through it. Ask some decent questions on this forum. Try posting dummy programs using altered post files (after backing-up your last-know-good post first!).

It seemed daunting at first because Okuma language, though originally based on Funuc, is quite different in its coding. (Canned drill cycle Z-retract height differences are just the beginning!)

But, with help from some kind people here on CNCzone, I've been able to work the glitches out. Dummy posting and pst-file trawling is quite rewarding! Especially when it leads to being able to post with confidence.

With my limited experience, Cswife, should you choose MC, make sure you have working, proven posts as part of the deal when you sign. That and some training on post customisaton as the need will most probably arise!

Good luck,

Luke