[twocik]

I'm now getting into work that requires me to flip the part more than 2 times. One side of the part has to be dead on or the work is trashed. It's taken me almost 5 - 15 mins sometimes to set this up and most of the time it's a little off (0.01" - 0.02"), plus my vision in my left eye isn't so great and puts stress on my right.

At the moment I'm using a little magnifying jeweler eye piece to set the X & Y. So looking over the Tormach site I see the probe and was curious what the users have to say about it.... ?


Next I see they offer a replacement tip and wondering why. If the probe is suppose to stop the machine from moving once touched, how could you break a tip ?


Last, I'm not seeing much info available on it and wanted to know how it works for setting up the X & Y coordinates. Say if I had a 4" x 4" x 1" height block, would I zero out the Z first then let the computer do the rest or am I having to jog it to each corner myself ?


Or do you recommend a different piece of equipment that will help me ?




.

[davidperry3]

I reccomend buying a probe like this:
http://wildhorse-innovations.com/ind...d&productId=80

It is not as accurate but you are only in it for a couple of hundred. Then you can decide if you need more accuracy (I did not).
The tool setting option on this one is not practical. With the tool table I don't think a tool setter is really useful anyway.

I would think a rigid (relativly) probe that measures when an electrical connection is made would be good for 90% of the jobs out there. I havent found one yet though.

You will love having a probe, the G68 command has changed my life!

[twocik]

WOW that's a steal !!! I've read a few people talk about this exact probe, and that it could void the Tormach warranty... Is this true ?




"You will love having a probe, the G68 command has changed my life!"



Sounds awesome ! Reading up a little bit on it's commands, I see G68, G69 and I also see G31. What's the difference between G31 and G68/G69 ?

[ez3022]

Any comments regarding functionality and ease of use of the Wildhorse unit vs the Tormach probe and tool setter would be appreciated. The Wildhorse probe also functions as a tool setter which is nice as the Tormach is pretty pricy. As I understand it, the Tormach tool setter will populate the tool table on touch off? Same with the WH unit? Any issues with connecting the probe to the Tormach front panel DIN jacks?

Mark

[Cairns]

Rather than use a probe, have you thought about using precision ground dowels to align your work after each operation? It has worked well for me.

[rowbare]

twocik, perhaps a USB microscope would be the ticket for doing your alignment.

bob

[twocik]

Dowel pins, great idea not sure how I could use them in this design. I guess I could pre drill the 15mm holes with a 1/4" hole for the first flip, but the second would be the problem. Not sure they make 15mm dowel pins, guess I could turn a few.



As for the microscope, this has been on my list since they listed the diy, but I was trying to finish a few projects first. How accurate is this setup for alignment ?

[MichaelHenry]

You might also look into a Haimer 3D Taster (Sensor). It's purely mechanical but senses in all 3 axes so you could use it for X-Y location as well as zeroing Z. To do the latter you'd have to fit it with one of the Tormach collars.

They are available from US distributors with a 3/4" straight shank for around $350.

Mike

[davidperry3]

The design of the Wild Horse probe has you unscrew the probe "finger" (the long skinny part) as well as the part that goes up into the collet. Then you turn it over it and it becomes a tool setter. This approach tends to shift the probes's alignment. As a result you never end up using it for a toolsetter. It has three set screws that adjust where the probe finger or toolsetter plate is located. While this is a very straight foward process (the same at the tormach I think) it takes for ever to do! When I realized this I was very dissapointed at first. But after some use I have decided that I would not use any tool setter very much.
I use a sliding paralell to set my Z and have found this to be very quick and accurate. Faster than getting a tool setter out and measuring electronically.
If you find that you absolutely must have one I would just buy another WH probe and consider it a dedicated toolsetter (tormach's solution) you are still far ahead of the $800 or so for the "real" toolsetter from Tormach.

If you bring up your Mach screen you will see a couple of pages refering to probing. One is XY probing and the last is Z probing. The XY page for the most part does what you would use G31 for except it is automatic in X and Y. It is assuming you have a vice or some other square object on the table. the beauty of this page is that you can just "eyeball" your vice or jig and clamp it down. Then on the XY page tell it to probe and the machine will probe two places along the X axis (you tell it how far apart) then measure one along the Y axis. At this point it will tell you where the corner of the vice is and what angle the vice is twisted. Then you go to your MDI and input:
G68 R -1.3
I just made up the -1.3, this number is the angle the probing screen will come up with. The whole cordinate system will now be shifted to match your vice or jig! You can tell you are in this shifted mode when the Dro numbers turn red.

This particuar probe sends the exact opposite signal to the computer i.e. high instead of low. So if you hook it up right out of the box the computer will think the probe is touching something when it is not. This is fixed very easily in the XML you just reverse the probe sense. Going into the XML is what will void your warrenty. I was very concerend about this so I called Greg at Tormach he confirmed that it would void the warrenty but he also promised not to leave me out in the cold. Based on my previous experiences with Tormach and the general opinion everyone else has about them I decided to go for it and have not regretted it in the lesat. The xml change takes about 30 seconds to find and do. I promised not to tell how but it is very simple to do.

I just can't say enough good things about having a probe it makes so much of a time difference and Is so accurate. Everybody needs one!

[concombrefrais]

How difficult is it to connect the wildhorse probe to a tormach? Is it "plug and play"
Christian

[davidperry3]

How difficult is it to connect the wildhorse probe to a tormach? Is it "plug and play"
Christian

You have to solder a couple of wires but it is no big deal.

[Don Clement]

I am still on the fence as to if a probe would be a cost effective benefit for me.
What I use now for tool height setting is to measure all of my TTS tools offline on a surface plate with height gage and then use Tool # 1 shown here to set a height datum. http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...uff/TooNo1.jpg This method is quick and can easily find the height datum of a roll pin or tooling ball. I believe a probe would require some type of algorithm programmed to find the maximum height datum of a roll pin or tooling ball.

For center finding I use a center finding tool I built using an Interapid 312B-1V indicator (I really like Swiss Interapid test indicators and own two of them now) mounted on a Daedal 13mm positioner as shown here: http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...nterFinder.jpg This method is also quick and easy to find the center of a hole or cylinder. BTW I like this direct comparator method as opposed to the indirect Blake coaxial method much as a single indicator as a single indicator [i.e. Interapid 312B-1] comparator on a swing arm vs. those two-dial indicator contraptions for tramming .

For edge finding I use a 3/8” Starrett edge finder mounted in a 3/8” TTS holder. This method of edge finding is quick and easy.
My vise and other fixtures are “keyed” so as to be parallel to the precision ground center slot on the Tormach PCNC so I never have to tram my vise or fixtures when re-mounting on the mill table.

Also the shuttle jog controller is also key to making these methods quick and easy.

I am not sure what advantages for me a probe would offer. Perhaps someone that has been using the probe could show how the above tasks could be better and more easily done using the probe.

Don

[netboss]

The question of warranty has been answered in Federal Law and several court cases over the past years. A manufacturer cannot base continuation of a warranty on arbitrary actions. They must show that the actions were the actual cause, or a major contributing cause, to the failure in question.

This was first tested when automobile manufacturers tried to tie warranty conditions to a certain brand of replacement parts (usually their own brand). It has since become a part of commercial law in general.

So if you make a change to the probe configuration portion of the XML file and your controller goes belly up, Tormach must show a direct relationship of the change you made and the failure of the controller in order to weasel out of the warranty.

Tormach's argument in support of their warranty terms is probably something to the effect that customer changes to the XML file MIGHT configure the machine in such a way that the machine would "crash" and cause damage. This is true. If such a change to the XML file were made and it caused damage to the machine, then the customer, not Tormach, is on the hook for the damage. But, under the law, the simple act of changing the XML file cannot be a basis for a blanket voiding of the warranty.

Going into the XML is what will void your warrenty. I was very concerend about this so I called Greg at Tormach he confirmed that it would void the warrenty but he also promised not to leave me out in the cold.

[Cairns]

You might also look into a Haimer 3D Taster (Sensor). It's purely mechanical but senses in all 3 axes so you could use it for X-Y location as well as zeroing Z. To do the latter you'd have to fit it with one of the Tormach collars.

They are available from US distributors with a 3/4" straight shank for around $350.

Mike

I ordered a Haimer and received it today. It may not work for 3D cloud modeling but it's a fantastic peice of equipment. I only wish I'd bought one when I was first starting out. I've got so many bent electronic edge finders it's not even funny. They aren't too forgiving if you're dyslexic.

[SPDTool]

I just received and hooked up the Wildhorse probe to my Tormach PCNC770.
Here are some of the details:
You need to change the connector from the 1/8" stereo mini-plug to a 5-pin DIN plug. Beware that the pin numbering on these DIN plugs is a little odd (sequence is Pin 1,4,2,5,3 - as you look from the rear - one of these pins carries +12v so check twice !). A wiring diagram is in the Tormach manual (figure 8.22).

The wire to the "Tip" of the WH probe goes to Pin 4, and the wire from the "Middle ring" goes to Pin 5. The LED will work correctly when you wire it this way - If you wire it backwards, the probe will still work without the LED.

As has been written before - you need to tell Mach3 to use opposite logic. Without addressing any of the warranty issues, the directions for doing this are described in the Tormach PCNC770 manual (section 9.5.11) and are fairly easy to do.

My impressions: This is a pretty nice probe for the money. The key is alignment which can be tricky but after a little practice is not too bad - I was able to get it to align within .0005 on the indicator.

I plan to mount it in a setscrew R8 collet - so that it will always be inserted the same way and orientation into the spindle (I marked the pulley so it won't go in 180 degrees out). I also need to test "edge finding" accuracy against my conventional Starrett edge finder before trusting it completely...

It definitely looks like it will be fantastic for finding edges and the middle of a hole. I just started playing with "Bed O nails" probing - it may work well for metal objects - but my testing on wood shows that it will "leave a mark" on soft materials.

[ez3022]

Looks like the PCNCConfig program is a little different on the 770 vs the 1100. Maybe the next software release for the PCNC 1100 will have the same probe logic selection option like the 770. After all, if they feel safe enough to allow this change on the 770, why not the 1100?

Mark

[twocik]

So no one here is using the Tormach probe, just the wildhorse ? Don't get me wrong the price is a very good on the one you've shown me, but how does this compare to the Tormach's probe as far as accuracy, structure, etc... ?

Does the Wildhorse have the same resolution as the Tormach Probe or are they the same ?


Sorry for all of the questions I'm just trying to figure out why one is almost 10x the price as the other.


Going to hit the fire button here tomorrow, so if someone could please come thru and let me know your honest opinion on the Tormach's Probe.

Guys again thanks for help

[MichaelHenry]

Try the Yahoo Tormach group - maybe somethere that owns one will speak up.

Mike

[bobeson]

I have a Tormach probe, and I really like using it. I'd say that overall, the Tormach probe is way overpriced and rather fragile, but it is nonetheless an indispensible part of my workflow now. I think every CNC machine tool should have a probe as standard equipment.

I mostly use my probe as an edge finder, but I also use it for metrology, center finding, and many other random tasks during job setup. For my 16-part fixture, I wrote gcode to probe all the raw stock placed in each fixture location, and adjust the roughing passes dynamically to account for stock dimension variations.

While I find the Tormach probe to be very useful, I am also dismayed at the cost and fragility of the probe. I've rebuilt mine several times now. I found a good source for replacements ruby tips at cmms.com, (~$50 each vs, $200 from Tormach). If I were more cautious I wouldn't break as many probe tips, of course, but I do like experimentation, and that comes with risks. I just wish Mach had a modal feature for probing that stops all motion whenever the probe trips. Then, even if you're in the middle of a rapid, if you crash into something unexpected (rearranged setup clamps are the big risk for me) the controller would stop the machine before the probe breaks. It seems like such a simple feature, and should already exist, but instead I have to hover over the estop button whenever I'm trying out a new program/setup.

Anyhow, if you can swing the cost of the Tormach probe, you will find it to be an extremely useful tool to own. I suspect the Wildhorse probe would be nearly as useful. I did find notable accuracy differences between the Tormach ruby probe tip and the steel probe tip they provide. I don't know much about probe tips, but I suppose the ruby tips are more spherical than the steel tips? I don't know if the Wildhorse probe tip can be swapped for a ruby tip or not, or if that even matters much or not. I suppose the difference would mostly by noticeable when you're performing metrology, particularly at multiple angles of incidence to the tip. For simple x/y/z edge finding, I suspect the repeatability of a steel probe tip will be sufficient for most users.

I would love to have a wireless probe living in an ATC. I'd use that thing constantly. Someboy needs to market a TTS-integrated wireless probe for $250 retail. If you take apart a Tormach probe, you'll see just how simple the mechanisms are, and how easily it could be made for much, much less than they charge. I just hope that somebody can come up with a better calibration method than the 3-screw adjustment scheme that is currently standard. It works, but is rather inelegant.

[mayhugh1]

I've been using the Tormach probe for several years and have been very happy with it. In fact I would say it has become indespensible in my workflow. I went through the calibration procedure (very touchy and took a good while to get near perfection) and mine seems to repeat within a few tenths even when rotated in the spindle. This says something about the concentricity of the design. The unit itself is very heavy and I expect the internals were designed to handle some serious level of crash. I think the stems on the ruby probes are carbide and are designed to snap in the event of a crash. At least mine did during the single (x2) crash that I experienced. I looked around for a more inexpensive alternative for the tip but didn't find a carbide stem/ruby tip replacement for much cheaper than the Tormach and so I bought my replacements from them.
There is an app note on Tormach's website warning about a potential race condition with VB scripts and especially those which are used to write the otherwise great probing screens in their software. Anyone using a probe needs to carefully read this and take it seriously. It warns the user to set the probe tool number manually before entering into any of the probing screens and to not rely on the probing screens to do it for you (using default probe tool number is #99). I had seen the software occasionally send the probe into a wrong (but always safe) direction if this is not done and became lax about remembering to do this step manually. By the way, this is a problem with the way Mach3 handles VB and there has been much discussion in the Mach forums about it along with some suggestions for software writers to handle it, but it seems to remain an sporadic problem to this day. It depends upon the version of Mach, the particular computer being used, the VB writer's particular style of code writing and who knows what else. Brian, the current Mach3 author seems to think he will have a fix for it in mach4 which evidently contains an improved VB framework.

That said, one day that problem hit me square between the eyes (twice). I did the following:

1) Went to the x-y probing page and hit the X+ button to probe the workpiece from the left to set the x-axis to the edge of the workpiece. I forgot about the app note warning and let the probing screen automatically set the tool to #99, the default probe tool number - at least it was supposed to.
2)Then I did the same for the Y+ button.
3)Next I went into the Z probe page and using the pendant, moved the z-axis up and over into the center of the workpiece.
4)Next I hit the button on the screen to move the z axis downward in order to set the z offset.
5)So far so good
6)Next I left the probing screens and went to the MDI window and did a G0X0Y0 as a sanity check to the probing operations. At that instant the probe rapid'ed straight down into the workpiece and tried to obliterate itself.

Well, this turned into an expensive crash since I spent most of my time watching it happen and wondering WTF instead of hitting the E-Stop. Of course it snapped the probe tip off and drove the carbide stem into the workpiece and bottomed the probe body into the workpiece with all its torque the z-axis stepper could muster.
I was sure the probe was ruined. I had a spare tip and so I replaced the broken one. I checked the calibration of the probe and it had changed some (duh!) and so I re-calibrated it and the probe miraculously seemed to work as well as it did before.
I was sure I had made some stupid mistake since I had repeated those steps at least 100 times previously. What I had forgotten was that I had recently downloaded the latest version of the Tormach software whose VB was now behaving a bit differently than I was used to.
So I made up a new workpiece, put it into the vise, and repeated the exact same steps in the probing process. Of course, in hindsight it would have made sense to jog the z-axis up some before repeating the MDI check, but I didn't. BAM...I did the exact same thing again. I didn't have any more spare tips and this time the center return spring force seemed greatly weakened. Sometimes the probe didn't reliably return to its OFF position.
After all my experience with the Tormach probe, I felt good enough about it that I ordered a replacement probe and spare tip from Tormach and chalked up the second and deadly crash to my own stupidity. Nearly everything I make starts out being referenced and re-referenced with this probe and so I was afraid to go with anything else that was lighter duty. I have no experiece with the Workhorse probe other that holding one in my hand during a Mach conference in Knoxville several years ago (I believe the designer was making very small prototype batches for a remarkable $100 at that time.) - Terry