[wild01]

Hey I'm about to retrofit a Monarch vmc150 4 axis mill with 30" x 70" travel (I think) I am in southern Colorado. Before I convince my boss to make the initial investment I would like to know how much smoke the salesman blew in the general direction of my posterior when I called.

First off understand that I am needing to get into this machine as quickly and as cheaply as possible. It was purchased with an eye towards production and it has cost far to much already. I do plan on upgrading a few things at a later date, but for now it needs to pay its way a little.

I was quoted cnclite for temporary control, with an eye towards upgrading later.
(side note I am a full time student and I noticed in another thread it may be possible to get my hands on a student version of pro for around $500, anyone with details please give.)

1 cs21720 7 axis ethernet dsp based controller card

1 usb jogstick

the sales guy told me I should be able to get most of the install done myself with phone and video help from camsoft and should only need someone onsite a day or two. (please note he of course did include all neccesary CYA statements and never guaranteed any of this)

what I need to know is how realistic is this, is there a better route, and what do I need to know before shelling out my bosses well horded money, and is there any installer out there who would like an all expense paid trip to the beautiful san luis valley for less than $620.00 per day.

[HuFlungDung]

From what some guys have told me about Monarchs, there's quite a bit of stuff to try to interface on one of those babies, what with the floating Z axis for tapping, toolchanger, etc.

How to advise you? Hmmm, there's no way in hell that that machine is going to be ready to go in 3 days, if you attempt to do it yourself. If you can find a competent retrofitter who actually has experience doing one of these types of machines (a Monarch), you'd be well advised to get the guy down there for $620 per day. His knowledge would be cheap at that price. You can make more money hand-hacking 6" stainless round barstock than you will retrofitting it yourself

I highly doubt that cnc lite is adequate. You can almost bet that some of the nitty gritty details will force you to get cnc professional. Thats 5 large up front.

Edit: I'm not saying the Camsoft system is bad. But, there is a lot of road to travel for the beginning retrofitter. Chances are a "pro" would come along with a pretty good cbk file that would represent hundreds of hours of time spent figuring out good logic.

[camsoft]

Wil,

Let's try this again. It's important that you understand this properly and consider everything that was said, including your budget and the CYA statements. In the manner you presented it here in the forum, we would also say this is not realistic. The CYA statements we made were as follows:

CNC Lite to handle the hole drilling job only that you have currently for it.
Conserveritally speaking 6-8 weeks
You would require a electrical/mechanical installer
(cost & time of their service unknown until you're ready for their visit)

There is a student version sold to schools for $495. It is CNC Professional, but there is no hardware and isn't capable of moving a real machine.

You don't have the budget to do any more right now. Perhaps later as was talked about. You will have to upgrade to Plus or Pro bring this machine with in standards. As we mentioned CNC Lite would only be temporary. For the hole drilling project it would be okay. Because of the I/O requirements of the tool changer you may have to only use one drill and not use the ATC until you or the retrofitter can determine the actual I/O need on how this tool changer works. The CS-2172 has only 53 I/O.

Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
(951) 674-8100
[email protected]
www.cnccontrols.com

[wild01]

Wil,

Let's try this again. It's important that you understand this properly and consider everything that was said, including your budget and the CYA statements. In the manner you presented it here in the forum, we would also say this is not realistic. The CYA statements we made were as follows:

CNC Lite to handle the hole drilling job only that you have currently for it.
Conserveritally speaking 6-8 weeks(what takes 6-8 weeks??)
You would require a electrical/mechanical installer
(cost & time of their service unknown until you're ready for their visit)

There is a student version sold to schools for $495. It is CNC Professional, but there is no hardware and isn't capable of moving a real machine.

You don't have the budget to do any more right now. Perhaps later as was talked about. You will have to upgrade to Plus or Pro bring this machine with in standards. As we mentioned CNC Lite would only be temporary. yes, I stated that For the hole drilling project it would be okay. Because of the I/O requirements of the tool changer you may have to only use one drill and not use the ATC until you or the retrofitter can determine the actual I/O need on how this tool changer works. The CS-2172 has only 53 I/O.

I am now asking installers (from what I can tell) their opinion of how much it will take to get up and running with this setup

Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
(951) 674-8100
[email protected]
www.cnccontrols.com

To respond to your post huflung
I apreciate the imput. If a profesional installer can do this in 2 or 3 days I don't think my boss would have a problem paying $620 a day although he did kinda balk at 200 a day perdiem, as we only charge 100 for our onsite, and the cost of lodging is pretty low around here.

What I am trying to determine is if this is really something I can do with only 2 or three days help. (and not take 6-8 weeks of my own time on the clock 2-3 would be acceptable.)


also, why isn't lite adequate. camsoft did mention that it was kinda lite, but the features that they used to point out it's weaknesses were features not included in the original control. backlash compensation ect.

what I need to know is, is lite capable of running the tool holder, will I have to start from scratch if I upgrade to pro ect.

[HuFlungDung]

Wild,
If the Camsoft people can connect you with a few professional retrofitters to talk to, they are the ones who can give you a good estimate of the costs. Typically, they do not want to have you rip out all the old control wiring until such time as they have gone through it, and understand it. If you have electrical schematics for the machine, it will help them immensely. They need to understand all the I/O for that machine, because basically the same I/O will need to be functional within your camsoft interface.

I would say you need CNC professional because of special needs of that machine. With CNC lite, you do not have full control of the logic sequence used within the gcode logic itself because you cannot write your own. While most Gcodes are quite straightforward, some may require extra logic to work correctly with that machine. CNC lite uses basic gcode command logic, and I don't recall if it executed first or last after any additional commands that you might write yourself.

CNC Professional also has more commands for you to use. Having said that, you can certainly begin with the Lite, and go as far as you can with it. Camsoft will tell you when you cannot go any farther within that system and need to upgrade. Expect to upgrade, is all I am warning you about.

Do you have this machine on your premises? What information can you gather about the drives for the servos? Is the machine in operational condition right now, or does it have control faults?

[Al_The_Man]

As someone who does retrofits for a living, there is no way I would talk about doing a retrofit in 3 days, even if I had all the documentation from doing an exact same machine, actually I have found there is no such thing as an exact same 20yr old machine. There is either some changes that no one has documented or wiring that need replacing or upgrading of contactors etc, not to mention servo tuning, there are always suprises.
There is pre-retrofit leg-work in comparing documentation etc. Once the machine is running there is often further de-bugging and tweaking to do.
If you add to that the learning process for someone doing it for the first time, you can triple the time taken, easy.
Al.

[wild01]

Thank you for your replies they have been very helpful.

[hcm3]

I would agree with the last entry that retrofitting this machine or any machine is not a fast process. I have done quite a few retrofits with different kinds of controls including Camsoft. It usually doesn't take long to get things like I/O working and servo motion but to debug every aspect of the system is what takes time. When OEM's build machines they work for a long time debugging the controls and still sometimes have problems that have to be solved in the field (trust me I know). I am not trying to be negative but it will take longer than a few days.

[Ben Olson]

for retrofitting a VMC, IMO, cnc plus should be considered the minimum requirement

2 or 3 days is an absolute impossibility for a retrofit of that size... even the folks at Camsoft couldn't do it

spend the money or spend the time... they cost the same in the end

[wild01]

thank you all. I was not trying to indicate that camsoft had said, or insinuated it would only take a few days to retrofit the machine. Just that I should only need 2 or 3 days HELP to set up the machine. i.e. they insinuated that I should be able to get the machine to a point where it would only take 2 or 3 days for a professional to finish the setup and that everything else should be able to be acomplished by myself or with the help of a competent local electrician.

question, is there anyone out there who would be willing to give a guaranteed install qoute on this machine. Yes as camsoft indicated, money is very much an issue right now, however I would rather spend a little more and have a machine that works, than one that doesn't. also, as I indicated in my request to camsoft time is also an issue.

I did not in any way start this thread to badmouth camsoft, from what I've seen and read they have a very good control package, and I would very much like to persue this avenue. However I have done enough sales in my life to know when it comes to technical advice before the sale, you will always get a "best case" scenario.

[wild01]

Wild,

Do you have this machine on your premises? What information can you gather about the drives for the servos? Is the machine in operational condition right now, or does it have control faults?

yes the machine is onsite, it has gettys drives, I have all the factory electrical schematics, no the machine is not operational, it lost it's executive, and the tape reader is not working properly, so reload is not an option at the moment.

[Karl_T]

FWIW, I originally had the exact same plan you propose. I spent a month pulling and testing wiring and I/O. Maybe 4 hours a day actual work and 4 hours a day learning. All this getting ready for a pro to help with start-up.

The professional retrofitter I had hired wasn't able to make it out 'cause he was on another job. So, I just kept pluggin' away. Never did get him out here.

I must say I had previous expereince doing this sort of thing with a simple CNC control. And computers, wiring, electrical logic, machine problem solving, etc. were familar to me.

Camsoft has hugely more capablity than any other control I've seen. (Mach 2 is a pea shooter,Ahha is a rifle, Centroid is a cannon, Camsoft is a nuclear weapon) This, of course, makes it more complex with a steep learning curve.

The key was to break it down into simple bite size goals. Estop circuit today, limit switches tomorrow, more inputs the next day, and so on and so on.

All told, I spent 3 months on this machine. I could do it again in less than 1 month. 3 days with a pro at initial startup would have saved me more than a month.




Karl

[HuFlungDung]

But Karl, just think of all the fun you would have missed if you'd hired a pro the first time

My experience pretty much parallels yours by the sounds of it. I really enjoyed learning all the stuff as I did my Camsoft retrofit, but I did not have urgent need to get the machine running on a short time schedule. You've got to have time available to think and learn when doing a Camsoft retro. I'm the boss at my shop, so that helped a lot so far as scheduling time to do the job.

[Carlo Rechi]

I couldn't agree more. I too spent a month helping my friend do his machine. I learned my self and did not have a retrofitter help us. CamSoft offered but my friend was too cheap. But when I did my second machine it was so much faster. I think I can do another Camsoft now in no time. I am getting very good on my own. The tech men at Camsoft are very smart. I think every one should have access to real men for technical help when learning. The Monarch is a big machine I think. I think now I can do a knee mill in 3 days on my own. But you will need Camsoft for this machine. If you had more time it would worth learning. I have been in the business many years and there's nothing like this Camsoft that could match what I am able to do.

Carlo

[wild01]

If this was my machine, I would love to spend weeks going through it with camsoft on the phone to help, But If it takes 2 or 3 months for me to do it on the clock, thats 5-7 grand out of my bosses pocket. I like this Idea, but somehow I don't think he will, especially as it would also mean that no money is coming in for that whole time period.

any advice??

oh for those of you who asked the monarch is about 11 feet tall 12 feet wide and 14 feet long

[Karl_T]

This is like any other job, if you hire the work done. Do you want somebody that don't know squat to do the job?

Now it would make sence to hire the installation to a pro for systems work and an electrician for wiring. And an in-house systems person to watch the job with an eye toward future maintenance.

Just my 2 cents

Karl

[camsoft]

Wil,

You've got pretty good advice here from all the folks.

Therfore, in summary this is going to take more time than the average mill. Some one will have to make the effort.

Explain the choices carefully to your boss as plan A,B or C.

(A) You can do most of the grunt work such as removable of the tape unit, general clean up, mounting terminal strips, running cables and so on... This will use only your time with our free help. Also consider the aide of a local CNC Repair gentleman from the phone book to help you with the electrical portion only. They don't have to know CamSoft. Just be our eyes and ears. This will save a great deal of money and not use so much of your time. When you have made as much progress as possible with our free technical support then call in a CamSoft installer to finish the rest. The actually cost is related to how much work you can do and how much you leave for him, but keep in mind that some one with the right skills can get done in one hour what would take you a 10 hours day to do.

(B) Ask a CamSoft dealer/install come in for a "site-survey" and ask them to provide a time estimate and quote for doing the whole project. Because of your remote location expect them to charge for at least the per-diem and travel cost.

(C) Sell the machine "as is" don't bother retrofitting it and take what you can get with a little more extra cash to buy another used machine perhaps somewhat smaller that is working.

We do have installers if you want us to send someone, but anyone out there that would like to help Wil the spec's we have noted is that this is a large Monarch mill with 6 axes including the two rotary tables, Spindle invertor and most likely resolvers that either have to be converted or replaced with digital encoders. There are 2 Z axes. The second is an indexable 24 position Z axis head.

This machine also has a 50 tool automatic ATC (tool changer)

The good news is that these are Gettys drives and Wil has the wiring charts. We also have Gettys wiring charts here that may or may not apply. The end result is that we can reuse these motors and drives with out any labor to dis-mount them or deal with high voltage motor wiring or cost of replacing the amp drives. You would only be re-directing (2-4) 10 volt signal wires to our terminal strip.

We also can provide pre-written Monarch tool changer routine from what we have copied from others. Again this will take time to customize for your machine, but only a small fraction of the time when compared to writting ladder logic from scratch. Check it out, because it may be something to leave for the installer. Remember some one with the proper training can do this much faster than you. Some installers are faster than others, so ask for a quote. There is no need for PLC's or Ladder logic. The computer becomes the PLC and runs the logic including the tool changer. We will provide the M6 code logic and support for it free of charge. We can also provide a generic 6 axes mill operator interface that uses dual rotary tables and a indexable 24 position second Z axis head. However, it is not that easy. This is not your typical 3 axis mill of simple motion. Think of a machine like this one as something you will have to take your time set up and think of the CBK file you get from us as a template. This will take some ones efforts, most like 6-8 weeks of on and off work, where the majority of time is spent electrically.

The average quote you would get to retrofit a machine like this from the other commercial vendors such Fanuc, Seimens, Allen Bradley ect.. would be $40,000 to $80,000. In the end bring to light to your boss that you would have added a great deal of value to this machine. From a business mans point of view you most likely would have doubled, tripled or even quadrupled the value of his machine from it's current worth, plus you would still get to make all the parts you wanted.

Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
(951) 674-8100
[email protected]
www.cnccontrols.com