[FAST LS1]

I'm a manufacturing engineer working with the tool room designer/supervisor. We currently have some Cincinatti 1250 machines that are 11 years old that were purchased new. Our work consists of making die sections for stamping dies out of 4140 steel, and hard cutting steel. We would like to square material and machine it on the VMC, but this requires a stout machine to push a big cutter. We run two VMC 2-3 shifts five days a week, so the machines get a Lot of use though we don't currently square material on the VMC's. Surface finish isn't ultimately critical since we aren't doing mold cavities, but obviously we need a machine that can produce a good finish. Most parts are one offs, old programs making duplicates, or actually making mulitples of something 2-5 setups. We could honestly do with a 20"x20" area machine to do single setups. Though a 50"x25" machine would allow multiple vises and multiples on one setup. It would also allow us to do die shoes and large stripper plates.

Given our application, what type of machine would you reccommend given:
1) Cost no option large new 50x20 machine
2) New cheaper machine that will last ~11 years 50x20
3) Used machine that will last ~11 years
4) Smaller new machine 20x20
5) Smaller used machine 20x20 that will last ~11 years.

Basically I need to look at all options new/used, larger machine/smaller machine to see what makes the most sense for our shop.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Personally I'd use a horizontal machine with a rotary table. (2) operations, (6) sides machined on sturdier machine tool.

Dick Z

[Cmailco]

The horizontal sounds like a great idea to me. I think every tool room should have at least 1!

Or are you guys hell-bent on VMCs?

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

A tool room without a Horizontal Boring Mill, IMHO, is at best incomplete or really not a tool room.

I used to say the same for jig-borers. However, the really good CNC VMC's can suffice.

I still love SIP and DIXI jig borers with high end DRO's. LOL

Dick Z

[FAST LS1]

We have a large 72" Devlieg boring mill with digital read outs, but it's a manual machine for doing low volume big stuff like die shoe work, bolsters, etc. This is the first I've heard that a horizontal machine would be better in our application. I guess we would need a jib hoist if we had a horizontal machine to load the steel, which we don't have right now.
What brand horizontal machines would you recommend?
What brand of vertical machines also as we might still have to buy one of those.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

The DeVlieg jig mills are excellent machines. Keep it in good condition.

Giddings & Lewis, Kuraki, Mitsubishi/Dixi among others are good Horizontal Boring Mills. All are CNC machines and can have ATC's.

I've been out of the shop for years now so my choices in vertical machines might be a bit off. Makino made some nice machines for heavy die work. Okuma-Howa was good. So many are no longer in business !!!!!!

I am prejudiced toward horizontal spindles. Gravity helps with chip removal and coolant flow. As mentioned earlier, the use of rotary tables allows presenting more sides of prismatic parts. Trunnions on verticals just aren't as sturdy as rotary tables mounted directly to the table on horizontals.

Hope that helps.

Dick Z

[CNC_Consultant]

I am familiar with the work you do and tooled similiar machines. There are many good VMC's such as the YCM C-Frame with 50 taper spindle. It is rigid enough to push large cutters and precise to do fine detail work. Your challege will be drilling. This machine has 270 PSI as standard through the spindle coolant to allow you to do deep hole drilling. The machines are also very accurate and although you don't need a good finish on your 3D surfaces, this machine will deliver it all the same. They come with a Fanuc control and have a very nice price point.

Good luck

[cad01]

yes, 50 taper vmc will work for your needs. Horizontals are nice, but more money and not always worth the extra. As long as you have a ridged machine (50 taper) and high pressure coolant you will love the results. I would stick with a Mori Seiki maybe NV series or Im not sure if they have the size in a DuraMill (lower cost, less options). Just my 2 cents.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Whatever you choose, make sure you have LOCAL support for emergency repair and trouble shooting.

Dick Z

[Cmailco]

I like Makino horizontals... what was your budget again?

Totally agree with Rich on service. That's a big part of any machine tool purchase... hell, I guess a lot of things fit into that category. You don't want to buy something with poor support or you may well end up educating the sales reps. But you probably already knew that.

[FAST LS1]

My budget is no where near what it should be in my opinion. The Cincinatti's were ~$115,000 each eleven years ago. The budget they've given us is less than $50,000. Therefor we've been looking at a Haas VF1 or used Haas VF-2's. I know they aren't optimal for our application, but what other options do we have?

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Two machines to do accurate machining, have heavy milling capability for $50,000? Maybe good used machines from somebody who needs the cash.

I think you will need a budget "adjustment".

Dick Z

[FAST LS1]

We're actually just looking for one machine under $50k, but it's still going to be tough at that price point.