[307startup]

How about a sliding extension table that allows this mill to machine longer/wider workpieces?



How about a Ram EDM setup?





This one sells for about $1300 USD...with Tormach badge-engineering and QC this could be a great attachment.

[307startup]

C'mon guys...are all of the Tormach users honestly saying they couldn't use accessories like these?

If we don't speak up now, the longer it will take for these ideas to percolate up to Tormach for adding to the development/sale line...

[HLF Ordnance]

That would be cool, but they are still working on the ATC right now! Lets no bug them, until after they get that worked out!

I like the EDM idea, but would that tear up the table?

[MichaelHenry]

A CNC lathe is at the top of my "new Tormach options" list.

Mike

[307startup]

That would be cool, but they are still working on the ATC right now! Lets no bug them, until after they get that worked out!

I like the EDM idea, but would that tear up the table?

Perhaps I'm a bit thick, but I didn't think it was 'bugging them' to ask them to make product we want for money...I thought that was business!

Why would EDM tear up the table? Are you planning on burning holes into your table or a workpiece? This is a ram-type setup and there are a number of companies that make similar devices SPECIFICALLY for utilization of a mills axes. I doubt the Chevalier ALIC-1 would have many customers if their product were destroying people's machines...

Tormach had a 5 year lead on their competitors and is slowly ceding ground to them...Novakon is currently also designing their own CNC lathe (at least as far along as Tormach), Syil is really starting to gather momentum with their new offerings and MDA Precision developed a working 5 axis trunnion and they aren't even a MANUFACTURER!

Glacern Machine Tools has a CNC bed-mill and CNC lathe on the backburner waiting for the right economic climate to introduce...this is not the time to be meek for Tormach, this is the time to be bold and invest in their brand if they really believe in it. Growth happens during hard-times NOT easy times...

[Tormachmaster]

Perhaps I'm a bit thick, but I didn't think it was 'bugging them' to ask them to make product we want for money...I thought that was business!

Why would EDM tear up the table? Are you planning on burning holes into your table or a workpiece? This is a ram-type setup and there are a number of companies that make similar devices SPECIFICALLY for utilization of a mills axes. I doubt the Chevalier ALIC-1 would have many customers if their product were destroying people's machines...

Tormach had a 5 year lead on their competitors and is slowly ceding ground to them...Novakon is currently also designing their own CNC lathe (at least as far along as Tormach), Syil is really starting to gather momentum with their new offerings and MDA Precision developed a working 5 axis trunnion and they aren't even a MANUFACTURER!

Glacern Machine Tools has a CNC bed-mill and CNC lathe on the backburner waiting for the right economic climate to introduce...this is not the time to be meek for Tormach, this is the time to be bold and invest in their brand if they really believe in it. Growth happens during hard-times NOT easy times...

Ram edm my true opinion having two edm's that ram idea looks like crap. Waste of time edms are for under water cutting and for real special work holding real tight parts that ram thing looks like something you should just engrave with tiny cutters and an engraver really am I missing something it looks real cheap and if it really is 1300 bucks then just go buy one tormach needs a lathe the most toolchanger is ok but I dont think alot of people will spend the expensive amount for a tool changer for this small of a machine LATHE nad it wont be a cheap one either. I just dont see even any stepper lathe conversion kits besides tiny ones out there. Trust me edms are expensive and have their place but so does that cheap looking spark tool prove me wrong post a video showing that thing of use for making money compared to a lathe. This is in no way to piss you off just being practical.

[307startup]

You didn't piss me off

I'm not suggesting this sparker will replace a true EDM, but really, how hard is it to plop a plastic tub on the table with 4 magnets in the corners to hold it down and fill it with de-ionized water?

Where I see this being of value is as a spark erosion tool...a sparkdrill if you will. Burning broken studs, screws, bolts and even tooling out of a hole is easier, faster and cheaper than using carbide and indicating on a hole to drill/mill it out. The fact that it could be used with graphite tooling for marking or raised/relieved detail work rather than engraving is a bonus!

Granted, this example is cheap & cheesy looking...what I suggest is having Tormach flesh the idea out, see what's available on the market for re-branding (like they do for some of their other accessories, like the vise, touch probe, etc) and use their proven QC methods to offer an affordable, quality option.

That's what I love about Tormach...bang for the buck!

Ram edm my true opinion having two edm's that ram idea looks like crap. Waste of time edms are for under water cutting and for real special work holding real tight parts that ram thing looks like something you should just engrave with tiny cutters and an engraver really am I missing something it looks real cheap and if it really is 1300 bucks then just go buy one tormach needs a lathe the most toolchanger is ok but I dont think alot of people will spend the expensive amount for a tool changer for this small of a machine LATHE nad it wont be a cheap one either. I just dont see even any stepper lathe conversion kits besides tiny ones out there. Trust me edms are expensive and have their place but so does that cheap looking spark tool prove me wrong post a video showing that thing of use for making money compared to a lathe. This is in no way to piss you off just being practical.

[phil burman]

So how many thousands of $s would you pay for a broken stud removal tool, and how many others would follow. You are of course free to do you own development, manufacturing and marketing. After all how difficult can it be to fit a plastic tub to the table

Phil

Where I see this being of value is as a spark erosion tool...a sparkdrill if you will. Burning broken studs, screws, bolts and even tooling out of a hole is easier, faster and cheaper than using carbide and indicating on a hole to drill/mill it out.

[sansbury]

Two things come to mind that make this a not-too-optimal solution:

1. Setup time: If you're making parts, how long will it take to yank the vise/fixture off the machine, set up the bathtup, burn the hole, and reverse the process? More or less time than to just make another part?

2. Good EDM requires a feedback loop to maintain the proper spark gap to erode the material you want to erode and not burn the part you don't. The way this is done is by measuring the current/voltage in the power unit and increasing or decreasing the Z-axis feed rate to maintain the desired gap. Now, maybe you can use some presets from a table of electrode sizes and materials, but this is going to be open-loop press-and-pray so who knows what you'll get. The more finicky it is, the less useful it is. I'm not an EDM guy though so maybe open-loop would be very usable?

Conversely, you can try to do it right, but Mach can't close a servo loop, so you'll need electronics to control the EDM and tell Mach to speed up or slow down. Or you can switch to EMC, though I don't know if anyone has ever used EMC's servo loop to drive an EDM. I do know that either way will require a lot more engineering than just figuring a way to attach the parts to the machine.

Against all this, I'd say that if you had regular uses for a small sinker EDM, I'd just build a small one to stick in a corner somewhere. You don't need an X or Y axis, just a Z. Then you just take the lid off, throw your part in, and light 'er up. Otherwise, the one or two times you snap a tap in a $400 block of stainless, you might as well go to your friendly EDM shop and give them a Benjamin to fix your oops.

Anyway, I don't say this to be discouraging, only to present the issues that would keep this from being an appealing option for me.

[307startup]

So how many thousands of $s would you pay for a broken stud removal tool, and how many others would follow. You are of course free to do you own development, manufacturing and marketing. After all how difficult can it be to fit a plastic tub to the table

Phil

I would pay in the same range of $$$ that all the various manufacturers are currently asking for those products...because that's what the market is asking for. That whole supply & demand "capitalist" thing, y'know? If Tormach sold an add-on EDM option with an accompanying Tormach price, I would of course buy it. Funny how that works!

I'm not so sure why you insist that I develop, manufacture and market this add-on...I bought my machine and accessories from Tormach. I didn't have to develop, manufacture and market those machines. I'm presenting an option of value for them to bring on-board. You don't have to buy one. You can try to discourage me if you feel the need, it's a free country...but just remember that at some point it was considered ridiculous to develop a specialized product like a Personal CNC to offer the general market. Good thing Tormach didn't listen to that advice!

So Phil, how many EDM's do you have in your shop running alongside your Tormach? And if you can afford them, why were you so cheap when choosing a CNC mill?

[307startup]

Two things come to mind that make this a not-too-optimal solution:

1. Setup time: If you're making parts, how long will it take to yank the vise/fixture off the machine, set up the bathtup, burn the hole, and reverse the process? More or less time than to just make another part?

With a spark erosion tool there is no need to yank the vise...you just put the ram in the spindle with the electrode and go from there. This is exactly what you do with an ALIC-1 (bottom of page at the link): http://www.chevalierusa.com/edms_product_list.html

If time is really an issue, why did you choose the Tormach to begin with? There are faster machines out there afterall... The point is not so much that it may take more time but that you aren't forced to waste material, or wait on someone else to assist you. I thought the point of having this equipment (personal CNC/manual machines) was self-sufficiency of sorts? For me at least, it is.

2. Good EDM requires a feedback loop to maintain the proper spark gap to erode the material you want to erode and not burn the part you don't. The way this is done is by measuring the current/voltage in the power unit and increasing or decreasing the Z-axis feed rate to maintain the desired gap. Now, maybe you can use some presets from a table of electrode sizes and materials, but this is going to be open-loop press-and-pray so who knows what you'll get. The more finicky it is, the less useful it is. I'm not an EDM guy though so maybe open-loop would be very usable?

It's just a guess, but it would be a fair assumption that the manufacturer has already gotten that figured out and implemented on the portable EDM powersource/controller...after all, they are in the business of making EDMs...

By using the Tormach you are effectively giving any add-on EDM 3-axis capability, and if this "feedback" is absolutely mandatory, there is always the port option that Tormach uses for the 4th axis, the touch probe, the tool-setter, etc. I'm sure Tormach can figure out what needs to be implemented as a matter of course during development!

Believe it or not, the axis motions on a CNC EDM machine are for positioning the part not for guiding the tool. At least this is true of ram-type EDMs. Which would make the implementation of an add-on ram-type EDM even more relevant on the Tormach.

Conversely, you can try to do it right, but Mach can't close a servo loop, so you'll need electronics to control the EDM and tell Mach to speed up or slow down. Or you can switch to EMC, though I don't know if anyone has ever used EMC's servo loop to drive an EDM. I do know that either way will require a lot more engineering than just figuring a way to attach the parts to the machine.

I have no idea why you are insisting on the need to have a closed servo loop, as it has nothing to do with using or offering this product, but since you obviously know nothing about the product, please continue with your argument against it...

Against all this, I'd say that if you had regular uses for a small sinker EDM, I'd just build a small one to stick in a corner somewhere. You don't need an X or Y axis, just a Z. Then you just take the lid off, throw your part in, and light 'er up. Otherwise, the one or two times you snap a tap in a $400 block of stainless, you might as well go to your friendly EDM shop and give them a Benjamin to fix your oops.

Ok why don't you do that then? After you find an EDM blueprint and controller that is worth building. Oh...that's right, there aren't any! If you would use the CNCZone search function you would realize that there are people wanting to build one, but nothing available to assist in that.

There aren't any EDM shops within 400 miles of my shop "friendly" or otherwise. This also defeats the purpose of me having my own shop if I'm forced to sub out work. That's exactly why this option needs to be offered...the few times you need it will pay for the cost of the option vs. paying the going shop rates or begging favors from companies.

Anyway, I don't say this to be discouraging, only to present the issues that would keep this from being an appealing option for me.

You aren't discouraging me, you're actually encouraging me. Your complete lack of knowledge on the subject shows exactly why this technology should be refined and implemented by Tormach.

[sansbury]

You aren't discouraging me, you're actually encouraging me. Your complete lack of knowledge on the subject shows exactly why this technology should be refined and implemented by Tormach.

307, thanks for a good laugh

There are at least a couple of books and internet groups out there dedicated to DIY EDM. Lindsay books has one and there is another by Langlois that has gotten good reviews. Googling "DIY EDM" will find you all sorts of stuff, including multiple guys who built their own EDMs. Here's one that's super easy to follow:

A Mini-EDM System

Here's another, that is a LOT more involved, there's also a youtube video showing it working, and schematics to build your own. Looks like a pretty serious project:

Home Made EDM - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web

The reason why I talk about servo loops is very simple: to do EDM, you *need* to control the gap. You can do that manually, as Jon Elson does on his website linked above, or you can do it electronically, as the second example does. Pick your poison.

After you find an EDM blueprint and controller that is worth building. Oh...that's right, there aren't any! If you would use the CNCZone search function you would realize that there are people wanting to build one, but nothing available to assist in that.

I've just shown you two working examples with documentation to make your own, so I think I win.

If you ask me why you don't see them all over the 'Zone, I think that the idea of EDM sounds cool to lots of people, but when they research it they have one of two reactions:

- "Oh $#@!, you mean I have to build my own circuit from just a schematic?"

- "Meh, I could do that but looks like a lot more trouble than it's worth."

As for that $1300 Shanghai Special, can you post anything more about it than a couple fuzzy pictures?

[307startup]

307, thanks for a good laugh

There are at least a couple of books and internet groups out there dedicated to DIY EDM. Lindsay books has one and there is another by Langlois that has gotten good reviews. Googling "DIY EDM" will find you all sorts of stuff, including multiple guys who built their own EDMs. Here's one that's super easy to follow:

A Mini-EDM System

Here's another, that is a LOT more involved, there's also a youtube video showing it working, and schematics to build your own. Looks like a pretty serious project:

Home Made EDM - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web

Wow...those are kludges at best, to call them toys would be very generous. Have you ever used a ram-type EDM? I use one in the field all the time, for removing broken studs and the like on-site. But I guess you know better than I how useful they are or what is a functional design.

The reason why I talk about servo loops is very simple: to do EDM, you *need* to control the gap. You can do that manually, as Jon Elson does on his website linked above, or you can do it electronically, as the second example does. Pick your poison.

So you're telling me that Tormach can design, engineer & implement a Personal CNC machine, but they can't figure out how to accomplish this? Including some kind of resistor setup would allow a 5v output for step/dir control using the port on the Tormach cabinet...in effect allowing control of the Z axis for this fluctuation.

I've just shown you two working examples with documentation to make your own, so I think I win.

If you ask me why you don't see them all over the 'Zone, I think that the idea of EDM sounds cool to lots of people, but when they research it they have one of two reactions:

- "Oh $#@!, you mean I have to build my own circuit from just a schematic?"

- "Meh, I could do that but looks like a lot more trouble than it's worth."

Again...I don't want to build one, I want Tormach to build one. That wouldn't hard to understand if you took some time to develop your reading comprehension. I don't want to build tools, I want to buy them. Tormach builds tools, and I've bought their tools. Follow the bouncing ball...

As for that $1300 Shanghai Special, can you post anything more about it than a couple fuzzy pictures?

Yeah I can. I don't see why I should, you have made it clear that your agenda is discrediting the idea, rather than seeing that it is possible and could be beneficial to the range of options that Tormach offers.

Thankfully you don't work for them. Hopefully one of the Tormach staff will read this thread and look into the viability.

[Tormachmaster]

Yeah I can. I don't see why I should, you have made it clear that your agenda is discrediting the idea, rather than seeing that it is possible and could be beneficial to the range of options that Tormach offers.

Thankfully you don't work for them. Hopefully one of the Tormach staff will read this thread and look into the viability.

Well I will admit it was not a dumb questionable thought dumb one is one never asked about and I still dont see the real use but as an idea who knows what it can lead to? I still vote they stick to upgrades and simple yet inexpensive one so they will maintain selling parts keep it under 500 bucks it will sell in todays market anything above better have good justification. I will tell you this one edms are alot of cost you dont even want to go there

[307startup]

Well I will admit it was not a dumb questionable thought dumb one is one never asked about and I still dont see the real use but as an idea who knows what it can lead to? I still vote they stick to upgrades and simple yet inexpensive one so they will maintain selling parts keep it under 500 bucks it will sell in todays market anything above better have good justification. I will tell you this one edms are alot of cost you dont even want to go there

You aren't much of a machinist if you can't see the use for it...

There are very few accessories that Tormach sells that are under $500.

You have never used one, so you can't see the need...therefore there is no need. Sheer ignorance! They have a place in a well-stocked machine shop. Get out of your own way and you might just learn a thing or two. Like I said, I use one at work ALL the time, I know just how valuable they are.

You're right...normal EDMs do cost alot. So do normal CNC mills. Yet somehow Tormach managed to build one that functions quite well and doesn't cost an arm & a leg. How in the world could they do that with an add-on ram EDM accessory?!?

Like I said...you don't want one, you ain't gotta buy one. Stop trying to sell your opinions, bias and lack of personal experience as fact. There is a niche for this, there is a need, there is a market. You don't have to be part of it.

[sansbury]

You have never used one, so you can't see the need...therefore there is no need. Sheer ignorance! They have a place in a well-stocked machine shop. Get out of your own way and you might just learn a thing or two.

Did you miss the part where he said he **OWNS** two of them?

Seriously 307, are you OK? No one here is out to get you. We have different opinions, but it's not personal, and if you read what Tormachmaster and I posted, you'll see that we're not trying to tear you down. Just raising other perspectives.

[307startup]

Did you miss the part where he said he **OWNS** two of them?

Seriously 307, are you OK? No one here is out to get you. We have different opinions, but it's not personal, and if you read what Tormachmaster and I posted, you'll see that we're not trying to tear you down. Just raising other perspectives.

Yes I did miss that part. I reiterate...if he owns two "expensive" ram EDMs, why did he cheap out with a Tormach mill?

Methinks I smell manure somewhere in his prose...

What perspective exactly? I use the damn things (portable ram EDM) at work practically every day, I know just how useful they are.

You can make fun of the example I offered, I'm not sticking up for that particular brand. But to say that they don't do anything valuable or have no place in the Tormach lineup is sheer ignorance.

You want to suggest a better brand to Tormach? I'm all up for that. You want to suggest improvements that could be made to the machine to make them more useful? I'm all up for that.

What I'm not up for is having someone tell me something that is patently false and forcing myself (and trying to convince others) to believe it against my own experiences.

[Tormachmaster]

Yes I did miss that part. I reiterate...if he owns two "expensive" ram EDMs, why did he cheap out with a Tormach mill?

Methinks I smell manure somewhere in his prose...

What perspective exactly? I use the damn things (portable ram EDM) at work practically every day, I know just how useful they are.

You can make fun of the example I offered, I'm not sticking up for that particular brand. But to say that they don't do anything valuable or have no place in the Tormach lineup is sheer ignorance.

You want to suggest a better brand to Tormach? I'm all up for that. You want to suggest improvements that could be made to the machine to make them more useful? I'm all up for that.

What I'm not up for is having someone tell me something that is patently false and forcing myself (and trying to convince others) to believe it against my own experiences.

I dont think I will waste my time lets just keep it at this write about yourself before running your mouth yeah I looked at all the ram edms at IMTS they were just not really that noticable now the hole popers were not a bad idea if you dont have time to just drill one.

[HLF Ordnance]

307 you have taken offense most posts on this thread. Chill out.

My comment about "bugging" tomach and the ATC completion was a joke. Still they have been working on it for a long time and it will still be a few more months.

When I said tear up the table I miss spoke. I did not know that chevalier makes an edm with no problems, and cuts close to the table.



My use for the RAM EDM would be to square up a radius as oppose to using a modified press and broach or sometimes a hand file.

[Tormachmaster]

Did you miss the part where he said he **OWNS** two of them?

Seriously 307, are you OK? No one here is out to get you. We have different opinions, but it's not personal, and if you read what Tormachmaster and I posted, you'll see that we're not trying to tear you down. Just raising other perspectives.

Hey not to add but you should check with who you comment about before doing it negative you would think differently if you knew my expeirence and who and what I do for a living.