[pete from TN]

Hello everyone,
I have been a hobby machinist for many years and have made all manner of interesting parts for motorcycles, air rifles, cars, you name it. In the last two years I have been engaged in a retrofit and the learning process to go CNC finally. I have learned an awful lot and have yet much to learn but I am finding that I have products and customers that want things made enough now that I am considering selling my retrofitted RF45 CNC machine and anteing up for a smaller footprint machining center for my home shop. I have recently undergone a major surgery so my career as a custom cabinet builder has been at least temporarily put on hold due to the weight of cabinets as well as the hazards of breathing the dusts and finishing products of cabinets. I have found that I really enjoy machining with CNC and making interesting products and I have been able to find as I said enough interest in my wares to make a few bucks here or there.

SO right now I am at a crossroads, I can keep what I have here and work to make it everything it can be and live with the comparatively slower rapid speeds of this machine when compared to a more commercial machine as well as the lack of a real toolchanger as well as other features of the more commercial oriented machines. I have looked seriously at several different machines that I would consider small enough to fit my needs and my shop yet large enough to get some real small production work done. My RF45 is an amazing little mill and does everything I ask of it but no manner of money, time or customization will make it a haas or mazak or otherwise.

Some of the machine I have looked at are and in no particular order, The Fadal VMC15, the Fanuc Robodrill, the Milltronics partner smaller VMCs, and some of the older smaller japanese iron like the matsuuras, and similar. I have a friend in a local machine shop that has a very nice Dyna Myte 4800 VMC that looks like it would do everything I would need and he has offered it to me but we never really discussed a serious price because I was but a learner at the time. While I am still learning and have a long way to go I am very seriously looking at purchasing a used hopefully inexpensively priced small footprint VMC. What I am looking for here is both ideas of what is capable, has fast rapids, owns a toolchanger, has at least a 7 or 8k spindle on it and is fully enclosed for my shop. If you have something like this that you are using and are making parts to sell successfully I wanna hear about it. I know little to nothing about the more commercial machines and I am quite sure it will be yet another learning experience whatever I end up with but that is the spice of life right.... SO what would you guys recommend in a small footprint, relatively low priced, used, capable mill for a budding machine shop entrepreneur?? Thanks in advance for your ideas and inspiration.. peace


Pete

[jyotti]

I loved running the Mats 500 at my last job .. in '93 I think. Moriseki .. Amada .. Mitshubishi laser .. all that good stuff. Punch in code .. not even a stool ..makem' sing and dance. That, was then. Punch up "japan syndrome" .. support for these marvelous machines .. may be on decline .. and I have shipped gazillions of sanyo-denki steppers all over the planet as well.

I can just play now, but sounds like you are in "business" mode. I've never run a Haas .. except for a drinking fountain in grade school. But .. all other things being equal, mabe look at a used american made machine, where you might probably expect to get customer service and parts 20 30 years out.

I got and re-furbished rear axel steering cylinder for my grader a couple of years ago .. It's a 1950 Austin-Western Supper 88. I have a 1945 South Bend 9x30 .. 1951 Monacrh EE Speedee-Matic .. '52 Ford 8N ... lots of old stuff that works ... and can finds part for.

If you want to turn, what you characterize as a hobbie, in to a money making proposition, then certainly, you want to make wise investments. I luv the jap machines, but if you have a choice .. and all other things being equal .. get a haas, or some other comparable us made machine .. cause mabe you can get parts later ... mabe.

I built a splitting-tenths cnc lathe, out of a '76 Jet 10-24 .. and made parts for PAKIII. If you want to make money .. you will ALWAYS be limited .. by your machine. The 135 foot ways .. on the Ingersoll-Rand twin 550hp gantry mill at westinghouse sunnyvale .. was not doing wing spars for boeing .. cause they couldn't.

I say .. do your homework .. find a market niche that you can compete in, and upgrade to a machine that you can grow from. I've been outta the paid trade since '93 .. but I do know, that if you got the right stuff, anything is possible ... even still, here in America. My first "metal cutter" was and Atlas 6"x24" change-gear in '73.

All the Best

[Geof]

What is your definition of inexpensive?

FWIW a Haas MiniMill is inexpensive and you can make a lot of stuff on this machine and make a lot of money. The Super MiniMill is better with a 10k spindle and much faster rapids and toolchanger but it is starting to get a bit above inexpensive. The Super MiniMill with a raised Z axis and a 4th axis can be turned into a very nice little production machine but now, with the rotary table included the price has grown into the expensive region. But if you have a market for the products you can make it can be a real money earner.

[Caprirs]

What do you consider a small footprint? The Dyna 4800 is a pretty decent size machine and weighs about 12,000 lbs. It would require a floor thicker than typical garage concrete. The Hass machines are much lighter. What size travels do you need for your parts?

Also, if you have health concerns regarding breathing fumes, do not underestimate the oil/coolant mist that wafts out of these VMSs and coats everything in the shop with a fine film.

[pete from TN]

I went to see the Dyna machine yesterday and while it is a great mill and was machining some Very nice parts it is also too damn big for my smaller shop. The width is fine as my current setup is no small chicken in width with the enclosure and all but the depth is just too much on that machine. I contacted a dealer recently and asked his opinion and he could not give me a serious recommendation as to a particular machine just to tell me that the major manuf. all make smaller machines.

I kinda like the looks and performance this video is showing and from what I am reading this machine and those like it are pretty reliable.....

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WvXc9gKkCM"]YouTube - 1990 BROTHER TC225 VMC BT30 MILL DEEP CUTS IN MEDIUM CARBON STEEL CNC[/nomedia]

And also this machine looks promising.....


[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8BZvggWGiY&feature=related"]YouTube - Online Auction Fadal VMC15 Vertical Machining Center[/nomedia]



And this one too...


[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ_gXFi4G24"]YouTube - Milltronics Partner 1[/nomedia]




As far as I know both of the last two are predominantly USA made machines...

As far as the health issues, Well I dunno, I have been working amidst dust and fumes from finishes for a long time now and from what I gather at least the machining fluids manufacturers are trying to make health conscious cutting fluids. I run flood coolant on my current mill and while it is not a deluge it does get all over the machine but I have not really had a problem with it getting on the rest of the shop yet. It does have a full enclosure....

I like the Matsuuras too but most are VERY heavy and even the 500 which is nice machine has limited travels like these other machines. I am trying to keep the price tag as low as possible yet arrive at a reliable machine. There seems to be a lot of machines out there similar to the brother such as the fanuc and others and the online content seems to be positive. The video of that machine cutting steel with the surface mill shows more than enough metal removal for my needs in steel. Mostly will be doing aluminum and plastics as well as the occasional steel part. It seems like Ebay has a great many VMC's used for under $25000 that at least do not appear to be worn out old garbage. Some actually look quite presentable and most are at dealers around the country to see and run in person... Any further input would be most appreciated as to which of these machines or similar machines would be recommended... peace

Pete

[underthetire]

If your going to do it, stay with the bigger brands, Mori Seiki, Okuma, Matsuura, Kitamura, Haas, etc. Parts availability for other machines can be spotty at best. The only US built machine now days is a Haas, they are pretty good about parts. Smaller footprint machines seem to be more expensive used than there larger cousins, unfortunately. I have access to several used machines, but other than the Chiron, they have a quite large footprint. Too bad, they need to get out of storage soon and are going cheap.

[pete from TN]

And fortunately there seems to be some smaller units that are what I would call reasonably priced. The friends shop I mentioned has an open architecture Kitamura that is pretty nice but is much older. They still use it everyday tho... They also have an enshu which is very nice..


Please do tell me about your machines going cheap, I like cheap prices just not cheap machinery... What is the chiron? Peace

Pete

[underthetire]

The chiron is a small pallet change machine, they were/are? made in germany. They were super high speed in there day. Look up FZ12W. It had a spindle failure, spindle was sent out for rebuild, not installed back in to the machine. They shut down the shop before the maint. guy could finish it. Could get that one with tooling for less than 4K, other one is a older Mori seiki MV45/40, in good shape with a Fanuc 10/11, other one is a Okuma MC4VA with a OSP5020. Stuff is sitting in a where house, my friend runs the maint dept at the shop (VERY large shop). says the stuff has to go. Figure <6K for the Mori or Okuma, both run fine. Has several lathes to. Just a FYI, I have nothing to do with any of these, he just called me last week. If I had a place to put one, i'd buy one of the lathes myself.

[DareBee]

Out of your list in post #5 - I wouldn't buy the Milltronics unless it is almost free.
They are a very light machine with lots of issues.

[pete from TN]

Looks like a little larger machine tho than these others...

What kind of issues do you know about with the milltronics machines? Have you run them?

The video of the Brother TC225 looks very cool and if it can hog steel like that I am quite sure it will be fine for aluminum and my purposes.... Just wish they had more travels... peace

[underthetire]

looks like they are tired of waiting.

Mori Seiki Okuma CNC Mills & Lathes - Entire Lot - eBay (item 180614979245 end time Jan-30-11 12:00:04 PST)

[BobWarfield]

Pete, when buying a used machine it's all about who you gonna call, how ya gonna fix it, and where ya gonna get da parts?

As several have said, focus on more commonly available machines. I'd also consider focusing on machines that there are dealers for in your area, or at least close enough you're willing to drive over and chat them up if you need a part or some advise.

I think it's great that you're moving up after have converted your own machine. The knowledge you gained doing that should be invaluable.

Haas and Fadal have a reputation for being simple and easy to work on. The Matsuuras get brought up time and time again for being brutally solid machines that people make a lot of money with and that seem to last forever.

Something high end like a Mori Seiki I'd want to be real sure the machine is in solid shape. Replacing its spindle bearings or a ballscrew will shock the heck out of your budget.

Remember to hold back some budget for the usual suspects:

- 3 phase converter
- Tool holders and other tooling
- Set of books if it doesn't come with full docs
- New CAM to make it sing (see below)

BTW, was fiddling around with the G-Wizard Editor to see what kind of time savings a VMC might get you just for the heck of it. I started with a fairly complicated part program I had, one with 6 or 7 tools, but just 2 1/2D.

I dialed in a 60 second manual tool change, a 6K rpm spindle, and 100IPM rapids. The GWE simulator said it would run in 25:32.

I then went to a 3.8 second chip to chip tool change, which is the Haas Super Mini spec, time went to 18:58.6.

Then I cranked rapids up to the Haas spec, 1200 IPM and got 15:02.5.

Last step, crank up the feeds and speeds on the assumption you've got a CAM package that'll do an HSM (constant tool engagement angle, trochoidal, or what have you) tool path. Final number was 5:30.8.

So you just might be making parts 5x faster on the back of the envelope anyway, LOL.

Obviously every part is different, but it's fun to play with the numbers in the simulator (found a few bugs in the process, DOH!).

Don't underestimate the role of the "digital tooling" as well as the machine.

I look forward to seeing this come together for you. It seems to be a good time economically to buy a used machine.

Cheers,

BW

[pete from TN]

I agree it IS a good time for buying a used machine. I do not have unlimited funds and all of the above concerns are what I am currently investigating. The overall size of the machines is the real kicker here. Anything with what I would call reasonable travels, rapids, and a decent toolchanger is usually three things,VERY LARGE and VERY HEAVY and VEERY EXPENSIVE ... Now while I would like to have a Haas minimillsuper or even a VF1 and a fadal is a wonderful machine too I can only reasonably afford the smallest and cheapest machines as used in their lines so unless I step on a gold coin somewhere they are out.

Take this brother for instance. It is a fine machine that has a very good reputation, sure it will not hog material like a VF2ss will but it has AMAZING rapids and tool to tool times and from the looks of the videos on youtube can mill and machine more than enough material for my needs. They are also a very small footprint machine weigh around 4k and I have seen them reasonably priced in several places. They do not have monster travels but for most of the stuff I make it is adequate. I have people calling me all the time now to make stuff for them and for the most part I have to turn them away just because it takes me so long to machine anything that I would have to charge them too much. I realize that my machine is very capable and I have been able to make some decent monies with it recently but I think I am ready to move up to something more commercial in nature and try to keep it working as much as I can. The overall time of toolchange and rapids does not seem like a huge difference at first glance but all you need to do is go watch a machine that is already setup running complex parts with toolchanges in a pro shop and you will quickly see what I am talking about. Fast just does not put it quite well enough. That and overall performance as well as surface finishes are amazing compared to even the best homebuilt benchtop machines...

I am sure you understand what I mean here, you have done a lot of research for your Gwizard program and it is maturing into something very usable for a great many people. I have no desires to have a massive extremely heavy chunk of mill out in my shop but something smaller with the toolchanger that has at least some of the performance of the Haas VF2 and the like would really be nice. The tormach is a nice machine but by the time they get the toolchanger sorted and you buy the mill, the toolchanger, and the stand, nevermind the tooling you have spent nearly enough to buy a quality used commercial machine and even then you still have a chinese benchtop mill.... These machines are what most would consider the bottom of the commercial machine world yet they are light years ahead of the machines you and I run...

I am hoping to get this small contract I am talking with a fellow about and if that comes to fruition I will be definitely getting a mill like this.. thanks for your insight and peace

Pete

[Caprirs]

An aspect not brought up about having the tool changer is the ability for you to be somewhere else while the machine runs rather than attending to the machine so frequently. This frees up the human to be on the phone, working on the computer, etc. Unless you are running lots of busy parts with short cycles and lots of tool changes, do not get too hung up on the tool change time. If you have a part cycle that takes 25 minutes and uses 6 tools, there is little gain in the lightning quick ATCs. On the other hand, if you're running a part with 6 tools that takes 6 minutes, the ATC can be a significant factor in cycle time.

As Bob rightly states, do not underestimate the importance of being able to get support for the machine. If a replacement part has to come from overseas and will take weeks or months to get, the machine is no longer a bargain.

[jyotti]

ummm ... unlike living in what was known as the valley of hearts delight .. now known as as silicon valley, I litterally "pounded the pavement" looking for work .. but that was on Palomar in Sunnyvale .. in the early 70's. Everything was new ... Durango Computer was thiriving.

Today .. the world is a bit more sophisticated than in the early 70's. Today, you damn better well have some marketing saavey .. experience .. experitese .. it you want to make a living in a small machine shop. And I can tell you my friend, it's not the fast rapids that will make you or break you.

"I have found that I really enjoy machining with CNC and making interesting products and I have been able to find as I said enough interest in my wares to make a few bucks here or there."

Then .. expand your marketing stratedgy .. to reach a larger market .. craigslist .. evilbay. You really want to make a living at this stuff, get serious about marketing .. like I said .. this IS 2011. Faster rapids, doesn't mean you still don't need to work. If you luv your work, then it's fun.

Ya know .. I ran my first Bridgeport in '66 for 2 bucks an hour .. and built The master bend-check and calibration fixture for PAKII in the early 90's .. PAKIII parts in '98. Soo, now, I'm here to have fun.

"Cheap CNC"? No such animal ... you either build, re-build, or buy.

I took a newly purchased .. in 1976 .. Jet 10-24 lathe, and split tenths with a cnc retro-fit .. these for 304 end weldments for 40gzh Patriot cables. I had no choice .. but to choose and retro one of my lathes. And ... btw .. the original 3 piece lot, was done ona 1945 SB 9x30. Rapids are fun to watch, but then what .....

I'd hook you up with Sugrart .. but then, I was making gazillions of delrin parts, on a 1951 Monach Speedie-Matic .. for 5" floppy dirves. Then came the 3 1/2" floppies .. and then John moved to Scotts Valley.. then hard drives .. and then offshore.

And .. btw .. please notice, how we try to paraenthisize here. ummm ... if someone gave you a machine today .. you would still need to have some focus on marketing to scale. Whatever you do .. you wanna be somewhere between Ford and buggiewhips.

This IS, a metal-working forum ..so my intent is not to "steal" a thread .. but just to perhaps enhance Mr. Pete's cnc travels .. so that he may learn ... paragraphing, and perhaps ... find some common ground. My cnc retro-fit, of a '76 Jet 10-24, is absolutely true, as well as it's purpose.

Peace to all
'68 Tay Ninh

[jyotti]

ummm ... unlike living in what was known as the valley of hearts delight .. now known as as silicon valley, I litterally "pounded the pavement" looking for work .. but that was on Palomar in Sunnyvale .. in the early 70's. Everything was new ... Durango Computer was thiriving.

Today .. the world is a bit more sophisticated than in the early 70's. Today, you damn better well have some marketing saavey .. experience .. experitese .. it you want to make a living in a small machine shop. And I can tell you my friend, it's not the fast rapids that will make you or break you.

"I have found that I really enjoy machining with CNC and making interesting products and I have been able to find as I said enough interest in my wares to make a few bucks here or there."

Then .. expand your marketing stratedgy .. to reach a larger market .. craigslist .. evilbay. You really want to make a living at this stuff, get serious about marketing .. like I said .. this IS 2011. Faster rapids, doesn't mean you still don't need to work. If you luv your work, then it's fun.

Ya know .. I ran my first Bridgeport in '66 for 2 bucks an hour .. and built The master bend-check and calibration fixture for PAKII in the early 90's .. PAKIII parts in '98. Soo, now, I'm here to have fun.

"Cheap CNC"? No such animal ... you either build, re-build, or buy.

I took a newly purchased .. in 1976 .. Jet 10-24 lathe, and split tenths with a cnc retro-fit .. these for 304 end weldments for 40gzh Patriot cables. I had no choice .. but to choose and retro one of my lathes. And ... btw .. the original 3 piece lot, was done ona 1945 SB 9x30. Rapids are fun to watch, but then what .....

I'd hook you up with Sugrart .. but then, I was making gazillions of delrin parts, on a 1951 Monach Speedie-Matic .. for 5" floppy dirves. Then came the 3 1/2" floppies .. and then John moved to Scotts Valley.. then hard drives .. and then offshore.

And .. btw .. please notice, how we try to paraenthisize here. ummm ... if someone gave you a machine today .. you would still need to have some focus on marketing to scale. Whatever you do .. you wanna be somewhere between Ford and buggiewhips.

This IS, a metal-working forum ..so my intent is not to "steal" a thread .. but just to perhaps enhance Mr. Pete's cnc travels .. so that he may learn ... paragraphing, and perhaps ... find some common ground. My cnc retro-fit, of a '76 Jet 10-24, is absolutely true, as well as it's purpose.

Peace to all
'68 Tay Ninh

[pete from TN]

Holy Condescending response Batman..... I am not even gonna try to respond to that other than to say thanks for the advice... peace

Pete