[camsoft]

Doug,

You once had an old floppy disk demo 17 years ago that you didn't even watch. Get real. We see that you bid jobs for a competitor.

Do you remember this:

:

An experienced retrofitter who is familiar with the new control could probably do it in 50 hours. I would probably bid a job like that at 80 hours. You could spend 200 hours just learning enough to program the PLC for the tool changer.

Whether you use a CNCBrain, Mach3, or a commercial CNC, it is not a trivial task.

The advantage of doing it yourself is that you won't have to pay a service man to come fix it when it breaks. Here in the states, CNC service people charge more than the hourly operating rate for the machine, sometimes twice as much.

Doug

[Lohmeyer]

Opinion is one thing but if a person or company presents an untrue fact that is made and those claims are made under malice, are inaccurate, done so with the purpose to mislead and or disrupt business then this is grounds for a law suit. To some this is fun and games or about getting mis-guided revenge but this is our business and we take it seriously.

You see, now this is the problem. Making public statements like this is never in your best interests. It sounds like declaring war on your customers. I'm a customer who is about to write the check to upgrade my support contract, but statements like the above just turn me off. There is a point where a company has to remember "the customer is right." No, that doesn't mean roll over and take it when someone says something bad, but getting into a pissing match about it only makes things worse. Instead, listen to what people are saying, fix issues, and provide a better product and a better company.

I have no agenda to ruin Camsoft. I want the opposite. I've invested the time to understand Camsoft, it is in my best interest to see this product be a stellar success. I'd like to retrofit some other systems too, and Camsoft is my path of least resistance right now.

What concerns me is that the people at Camsoft spend more time defending why Camsoft is great, and not enough time fixing what is not. The new V17.0 release is a huge step forward, which is why I'm going to re-up my support contract. But there are many parts of the software that are still right out of the Windows 95 era, and I don't mean the custom user interface (though come on guys - it's time to show us what _you_ can do, not tell us what _we_ can do). No, I mean all the other interfaces that we cannot customize like the tool screen, CNCSetup, the help system, the editor screens, and most of all AS3000. It's embarrassing how out date this stuff is.

One example... Your help screens are custom designed, almost Windows 3.1 like. When I enter a help screen (from CNCSetup), for example, I cannot alt-tab back and forth from help to CNCSetup. This is against Windows convention, and makes it very difficult to use online help while in CNCSetup. Why not upgrade this to use the Micrsoft prescribed help system that uses an index, table of contents, better search features, etc. Or an HTML based web page system (which is what Microsoft help is made of anyway)?

I asked about this 2 years ago, and all I got was excuses and push back. I was ready to buy support for $1300 back then, but the response I got from you guys pushed me away. That's now $1300+$500 in support money you could have made on me in 2 years if you hadn't given me an odd feeling about trusting where your company was going. Now, with v17.0 coming out, I'm coming back to you guys to give you another chance.

You have got to get over this idea that your software (and company) is perfect. It's not. For example things like not offering a replacement CD of an old version of the software at a reasonable fee is just inexcusable. No really! You guys just burn these CD's on a PC anyway. What's the big deal. Similarly, not offering the ability to switch to a USB key from a parallel port key without a full $1300 upgrade. Seriously? All this does is piss off your customers and make them want to go elsewhere. It's called customer service. Yes, you provide great technical support (and I thank you for the help you provided over the last few months even though I'm not on support right now), but I'm talking about general customer service, not just tech support. It's called "Customer Excellence". Google it. It's about exceeding the expectations of your customers.

People have valid reasons to be unhappy with Camsoft, and as far as I can tell, the comments here are simply unhappy customers expressing their opinion. Suggesting conspiracies that your competitors are coming here to discredit you - true or not, it just doesn't help your situation. Outright threatening your customers on an open forum? Wow. If I learned you actually sued a customer over statements made in this forum, I would run away. I already feel like I can't make these statements for fear of suffering the wrath of Camsoft, and yet most what I'm saying here is in support of Camsoft, not to attack you. If that doesn't get the message across, I have no idea how better to say it. Your customers shouldn't be afraid of you!

Seriously, a little more effort on the customer service front, and modernizing the software would make all these bad comments just noise in the crowd. Camsoft is a good product, but there is significant room for improvement.

Regards,
Mike

[doug6949]

What concerns me is that the people at Camsoft spend more time defending why Camsoft is great, and not enough time fixing what is not.

Mike;
That is exactly why I steered clear of Camsoft years ago. They survive because of aggressive marketing, not because of their product. Whether or not Camsoft is a good product is irrelevant.

As for having to pay $1300 for upgrades/support, that's marketing, not support. Software bits don't get dull. It wouldn't need support if it ran right to begin with.

As for Camsoft's intimation that I represent a competitor, well, that's a little dated and a lot misleading.

I recently (the first time in eight years) contacted said competitor's tech support about a problem (which I created) with a nine year old control. They not only answered my questions, they sent me the latest software revision and told me to call or email if I had any questions about installing it. That's support.

My question to Camsoft is this: Assuming both company's products were equal, which one would you use if you were in my shoes?

Doug

[camsoft]

Doug,

There's lots of reasons to upgrade. Software does become dated and good
software becomes better. You won't find another product equal to CamSoft but
if you could you buy anything you want.

[camsoft]

Mike,

Thanks for making some nice compliments.

It's great that:

(A) You have invested the time to understand CamSoft and view it in your best interest to see this product be a stellar success.

(B) We like that you would like to retrofit some other systems too, and CamSoft is your path of least resistance right now.

(C) Thanks for noticing that the new V17.0 release is a huge step forward.

(D) We're glad you're going to re-up your support contract and are coming back.

However, there are something's that we can see you don't fully understand and don't want you or anyone to keep having the wrong impressions.


We know you're trying to give us advice. But you're coming across as if you know better by telling us to Google which is an insult. We received our educations from North Eastern University and Pepperdine school of business, not from Google. CamSoft is not perfect. No product is prefect. America isn't even perfect but America is still the best country in the world. CamSoft is the best CNC software and the proof is this is that our CNC Professional is thee most powerfully, thee most configurable, with highest cutting speeds, utilizing thee most robust I/O programming logic, best real-time solid modeled tool path animated graphics, best documented, best technically supported, with a screen designer that does not require knowledge of VB, C++, .NET, HTML, PLC's or Learning ladder logic. We must be doing something right to have the very best CNC Controller obtainable on the market across all these categories and have continued repeat customers spanning 30 years.

Some of your ideas have validity. We've taken notice. While others are not new or we do not consider them better ideas.

CamSoft is only one of few companies that passed the Microsoft's own rigid testing for compliance. For example the alt-tab keys do work back and forth between applications. We believe we could make better help screens so we developed our own. We can search like a web-browser using multiple key words, not just a single search phrase. The searches are faster plus we display multiple photos, movies and sound. It even reads to you the documentation, verbally out of the speakers, turning text into verbal speech.

We have been in heavy development in the last 9 months and just release a new version V17 as you know, advancements in Robotics, expansion in factory automation equipment and a new product called Servo Magic this year for the low end market. We are constantly improving. Every Friday we update our CD burner computer with new features, commands, CBK files, hardware drivers etc...

To show that we know the business very well, did you know that oddly enough competitors purchase our software and some pay us consulting fees to teach them what we know. There are some smart people on staff here that have seen the CNC software business evolve from the beginning. We've seen the mistakes made by others, seen dozens of competitors come and go, even set the bar that others reach for. Yet we are still here and consider ourselves a leader in this business. We fully understand this process. We are the engineers that pioneered and developed the worlds first micro computer based CNC software package for sale in the United States back in the 1970's when the CRT hadn't yet been invented. Programs were punched on paper tape by teletypes connected to the first PCs. We owned serial # 004. Purchased from a company that is called Intel today. By 1981 we were a corporation. We were an innovator then and still are today and have many product development years over the competition.

We do listen. These improvements are almost always suggested by customers. That is the way it should be. Some one either paid for or suggested almost everything you see. When you mention that it doesn't cost us nothing to burn a old CD version or swap out an old printer port Key for a USB key without updating the software, you're missing the point. The cost of a CD or USB key is not the issue. Even if a customer said: You can break the rules for me. What's it going to hurt. Okay, this may just be because they are naive. Our dealers and OEM's have responsibilities to their customers. We have had to make across the board policies that apply to all. We can't knowing take a risk that if we break the rules for one that what we do is going to mess up something else against our better judgment. We make groups of changes in batches we call minor version releases. We have been making improvements for over 30 years and have 170 versions floating around going back to the days DOS. We had to draw the line some where on what we can ship and support. This is not some new idea. As if we didn't think of that. Without a further debate , the decision has been made to only ship the current version, so the tech staff would be using the same software as the customer is when we are helping them diagnose. The diagnostic tools get better with each version and makes support easier for everyone. People can now diagnose most of their own problems. Offering anything less on the CD's "software" we ship out is something we do not want to do. We would rather turn down the business. It is literally impossible to support all of these older versions at the same time. We along with our dealers and OEMs will do our best to support the old versions but when events happen as we have explained further down we'll only ship the current version. That is why we offer maintenance and free software upgrades to our customers for long they are on maintenance. Customer can get continued support, maintenance and free updates from us to keep current year after year at very low prices which also includes the latest hardware and Windows drivers.

Starting at only $4 a month for on-time support and maintenance renewals for the Graphical Operator Interface, $16 for CNC Lite and $41 for CNC Pro. This helps pay for the engineering staff we employ and why I have a job today. So when people post for the purpose to dis-credit us with mis-information we are going to tell people the truth and give the facts. Unfair rhetoric upsets anyone. This is about jobs and our customer base. American jobs and keeping the software and support the best it can be for thousands of customers that use it daily. We are defending their interest as well and believe it's a good thing to keep our customers up to date with the latest technology.

There are good reasons to protect customers from themselves. Sometimes they don't think breaking the rules is a big deal. They don't realize they could make things worst by not accepting our or their dealers recommendations. For example it's a major head ache to try to work around matching and keeping track of all the old hardware driver versions manufacture's put out year after year. There are umpteen MicroSoft service packs and updates almost weekly for each particular version of Windows with only subtle changes that go un-noticed. If the CNC software makes functions call to drivers with missing parameters or passes values in the wrong format then anything random could happen. The user would notice crazy odd things happen. My software is doing something weird but another persons isn't. A company needs to get on board and get an update so every thing matches. The most common issue is that a person could install some 3rd party software package for un-related business, InterNet or accounting use or allow his PC be updated with Windows fixes and a driver is replaced that the CNC software now has a problem with. The only way to avoid these problems is to get an update for the CNC software as well. We spend a lot of time keeping up with hardware and Windows changes. Every Friday we update the computer that make our product CDs. So a company can install a hardware board he bought years ago and know that it will still work. He can even replace the board with a different manufactures board made in a different country if the original part isn't made anymore or else the manufacture goes out of business. The old stuff is still on the installation CD along with the new stuff. This gives people freedom and releases them from hunting down expensive proprietary parts and specific part numbers that maybe discontinued. It took 14 programmers years to make the software so advanced that if you do change to a different model then the logic you wrote doesn't have to be re-written. The same command that turns on a relay on brand X is the same command that works on another model board from a different manufacture going back 30 something years. You don't have to keep up with this yourself or learn computer programming languages. We do not need PLC's or ladder logic. For example we can hand out a tool change / turret routine made 20 years for a board that has been discontinued and it will work on a different manufactures board today.

Another example is that you will still see Windows 95 and 98 screens. These screens are still there. They are not going away. The installation program will install your choice of Windows 95, 98, Me, NT, 2000, XP, Vista or Windows 7. The point is that you can load CNC software for the Windows version you personally prefer. Don't like Windows 95, don't use it. The system is backwards compatible for our old customers. Some customers have been with us a very long time and always want to keep their systems updated and others want to keep their old PC's running.

Indirectly you are a customer when you bought a used machine with our software on it. The software would need to be updated for us to get the improvements you want. You're just not a customer of ours yet. We've been helping you for a few years now, no maintenance and we've haven't received any money from you. Neither have our dealers so please don't expect all your ideas to be implemented. The idea has to be better. We have seen a lot. Ideas are like seeds. The good ones grow and the bad one don't. The product has roots but we keep it up. Software is not like people. Software gets better with age. It gets healthy and stronger. Some things are left best not to change. We are not going to make changes for the sake of changes. We are not going to make the "New Coke" mistake.

The bottom line on what to expect is that if you have a good idea, we'll listen. That's enough for us. This goes out to everyone. Join only because you want to. Posting here isn't going to entitle anyone to carte blanc or advance their goals. If we hear ideas and don't agree they are better. Don't be personally offended. On the other hand if you ever wondered why we have so many features and find that you're asking yourself why? Well, that's because when someone has an idea, even the ones we don't agree with, but that feature becomes important to our customer, we may add it on our own. We may even charge for it. The nice thing is that we give you the tools to create your own operator screens, G&M codes , canned cycles and I/O logic, built in as standard features. You may use our logic commands or for the more complex screens we provide VB, C++ or NET DLL's to pass data back and forth to your screens. For the ones we add these then become included features in the next version for others to use. We often say, tongue in cheek that we may have 10 different ways to do any one thing. People have preferences and if they feel they need it, we will do it. We do listen. We have more experience in our small group of engineers than most companies would ever hope to. The important thing here is that experience and respect is something we have earned. We know , beyond a shadow of doubt that despite what some people with mis-directed intentions post that we have earned that respect. Our customers not only tell us so they back up their words by buying multiple systems from us, re-join our support and maintenance program from year after year and stay loyal to us.

We are in this business because we like what we do. We don't need the money that bad. Share our passion and join us to help make the best system on the market even better.

Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
[email protected]
PH 951-674-8100
Fax 951-674-3110
PC Based CNC Control For The Machine Tool CNC Retrofit And CNC Controller OEM Market

[Al_The_Man]

Here are the questions:

1. Can everyone who has experience with camsoft post here?
2. Is it against the rules to post what one feels to be true and accurate information when asked?
3. Is this forum only for those who have had a positive experience with camsoft?
4. When someone asks a question, or makes a comment...are they looking ONLY for replys from those with positive Camsoft experience?
5. Does Camsoft want customers and potential customers to get all pertinent information when they ask a question here?
6. Have posts unfavorable to Camsoft been deleted in this forum as some suggest?
7. If the answer to question 6 is yes, who deleted those posts, and why were they deleted?

Re 6 & 7, There was originally a general policy in place to allow Manufacturers to be moderators of their particular forums, complaints were received from forum members saying that this policy was being abused by the particular company that did not particularly like anything negative posted about their product.
This privilege was then removed and posts do not get edited or removed unless it contravenes the Forum policy in general, e.g. personal insults, debasing or vitriolic language etc.
Al.

[camsoft]

Enough is enough. We're not going to play your game. We can tell the difference between opinion and a person that has intentions to disrupt our business. It's obvious that some of these post are attempting to mis-lead. We also have the rights to tell our side. You have the rights to your opinion but when the line is crossed we are going to separate fact from fiction for the readers plus keep records of what was said and by whom. You do not have the rights to spread rumors or lie. If it gets bad or there is a pattern from an individual, we will take action. The court will decide if the intentions are some harmless school yard thing or there was harm done. This is law.

(iii) If the ruling establishes that the actions primarily were for the purpose of disrupting the business


Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
[email protected]
PH 951-674-8100
Fax 951-674-3110
PC Based CNC Control For The Machine Tool CNC Retrofit And CNC Controller OEM Market

[doug6949]

Enough is enough. We're not going to play your game.

If by "game" you mean the way we've coaxed you into revealing your attitude toward customers, then yes, you are still in the game. You aren't doing very well either.

You have the rights to your opinion but when the line is crossed we are going to separate fact from fiction for the readers plus keep records of what was said and by whom. You do not have the rights to spread rumors or lie. If it gets bad or there is a pattern from an individual, we will take action. The court will decide if the intentions are some harmless school yard thing or there was harm done. This is law.

(iii) If the ruling establishes that the actions primarily were for the purpose of disrupting the business

Once again, you circumvent questions and instead respond with threats. How can you not see where this is going?

OK, I admit it. Shame on me. I was deliberately baiting you because I was well aware of your company's reputation for arrogance and wanted others to see it. But I never imagined you would fall for it this easily or this long. Sometimes I just get lucky.

Camsoft may in fact have a good product. But your cavalier attitude toward customers and potential customers is reason enough to suspect the product sucks as well.

I wonder if "sucks" is libel enough for a lawsuit

Doug

[camsoft]

You are not going to find enough excuses to justify any of this.

We're not going to play along anymore.

There's been a meeting and we are suppose to answer general technical support questions and set right technical mis-conceptions or when mis-represented. The engineers here handle all other specific technical support by phone or direct e-mail. We are not here to express opinions or set the companies policies.


Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
[email protected]
PH 951-674-8100
Fax 951-674-3110
PC Based CNC Control For The Machine Tool CNC Retrofit And CNC Controller OEM Market