[Dave's_Not_Here]

I purchased a Techno-Isel 4896Plus servo driven CNC Router. I want to add a 4th axis but the Techno people are pretty lame about responding.

If you go to their website, they offer a great looking 4th axis add-on and the controller is supposed to be 4th axis ready. However, their online store does not offer any of the add-on's one might be interested in, such as the 4th axis, a lubrication kit, Laser Scanner, etc. They post no prices and no direct links to e-mail the sales department and phone calls go into Never-Never Land.

In fact, I had an issue with the remote control box not resuming properly and waited several hours for a tech reply and finally found my answer here on the Zone... I opened the box and blew out the dust... never did get the call back.

The machine is a great HD machine and I am totally satisfied with my purchase as far as equipment is concerned.... the support and sales departments suck!

So, can anyone direct me to an after-market 4th axis source? I only have 5.5" clearance under the gantry.

I assume the controller could care less what brand the hardware is, so long as it receives the proper signals and codes via a compatible connection.

Lastly, dumb question, but I was told that you can mix servos and steppers but that just does not seem right in my limited mind...

Any help is appreciated,

Dave

[Dave's_Not_Here]

Wow.... one of the largest CNC Forums on the net and no one knows about any aftermarket 4th Axis suppliers.

Guess there is an opportunity knocking for a good, enterprising machinist to start a small business supplying simple 4th axis kits...

DNH

[jalessi]

Dave,

A Sherline 4th axis rotary "model 3700-CNC" is very popular and will fit a Isel router without any problems.

http://tinyurl.com/yfjzb2q

http://www.sherline.com/8730pg.htm

Jeff...

[jalessi]

Dave,

Here are the dimensions for quick reference.

This will fit under your gantry with a little room to spare.

Jeff...

[Dave's_Not_Here]

Jeff,

Thank you. I will look into them and see if they are available with a Servo.

DNH

[Dave's_Not_Here]

Jeff,

Thank you. I will look into them.

DNH

[jalessi]

Dave,

The Sherline rotary has 72-1 reduction, it works very well with a stepper.

A complete servo solution is going to run almost double what a stepper will.

Keling has a very inexpensive servo

http://www.kelinginc.net/ServoMotors.html

http://www.kelinginc.net/K23-120-36.pdf

AMT makes very good encoders.

http://www.amtencoder.com/

http://www.cui.com/getpdf.aspx?filename=AMT102-V.pdf

Gecko has a nice new servo drive

http://www.geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=2&i=14474

Jeff...

[Dave's_Not_Here]

Hey Jeff,

Yes, servos will cost more but I am already setup with servos, so steppers are out of the running.

I contacted Sherline but no info back on a servo setup.

I got info back from a Techno dealer.... about $7,500 for a 4th axis.

I stumbled across a file showing the servo electrical board with call-outs and compared it to a photograph I took of my controller. It appears I already have the 4th axis amp, and just need the $90 servo with encoder and run the cables and plug in the connectors. I might need to add a $150 chip to my PCI400 board but the jury is still out. The rotary table alone is over $6,800.. ouch!

I came across this Taiwan made full-meal deal for about $700 USD... from a CNCZone Link... tough to beat.... Must not be too bad or they wouldn't be allowed sell on the site.... right?
http://www.atron.com.tw/uwish/front/...ategory=111013

I have several other options in the mix and we will see where things shake out.

Thanks for the info... It will come in handy when I upgrade my Legacy Mill to CNC!

[SORCHEROR]

may i ask how much torgue you want your 4 axis to have?and what you will cut?wood?plastic?aluminum?maybe a custom built one is the way to go,i build custom table top cnc and fourth axis,gladly give you a quote if i find out all the parameters

[SORCHEROR]

i would check with techno on if your board is fourth axis ready,i dont think it is,id bet its missing more than just the chip,they usually use a standard four axis board and dont put the chip and other diodes and mossfets in the fourth spot,but you should be able to use
any servo driver thats compatible and hook it up to your system

[Dave's_Not_Here]

i would check with techno on if your board is fourth axis ready,i dont think it is,id bet its missing more than just the chip,they usually use a standard four axis board and dont put the chip and other diodes and mossfets in the fourth spot,but you should be able to use
any servo driver thats compatible and hook it up to your system

I have never dealt with a group of people that share so little information as does the Techno group. I can't even get a reply specific to my controller layout after sending a photograph! When asked about the difference between the Build 400 and Build 420Q software upgrade, all I get is 'if you have problems upgrade.' Absolutely no response about availability and price for the lube kit. Forget an explanation about the meaning of "4th axis ready."

As you can see, I "believe" I have the amp in the upper right corner of the photograph. What is missing is the connectors below the amp from the encoder and the cable plug from the servo that goes to the port in lower left in the photograph. Use the PDF for reference.

So, unless my ignorance is exposed for what it is, I am assuming I "may" need the PCI Chip and servo motor... as well as the rotary head and tail stock.

Feel free to point out my erroneous assumptions.

DNH

[Dave's_Not_Here]

Double Post.... sorry.

[SORCHEROR]

that board definately looks fourth axis ready,too bad they wont answer your questions
do they sell the same servos and cables?

[Torchhead]

It's difficult to tell from the photo. From a practical standpoint I doubt the manufacturer would put in the expensive 4th axis components (power FET's, interface components, etc and leave out the cheap spade connectors. Just my take as an engineer.

If you are using MACH3 as your control it does not make any difference if you use servo or stepper on an axis. If you can find and breakout the 4th axis signals on the cable prior to the controller you have you can drive a stepper or servo. You can even use a another power supply to drive that motor. For 23 frame motors a Gecko 251 makes a good match. You can figure the RPM of the rotary table by using the raw RPM of the either type motor. Stepper = ~600RPM Servo = ~ 3000 RPM. Divided that by the table ratio give you table RPM. Then the surface cutting speed is the table RPM times the diameter of the work times PI.

If you are using their control software then your chances of doing a low cost axis add-on are slim. Welcome to the world of proprietary systems!

If the input to their control is from the PC parallel port a powered breakout card between the PC and their controller that gives you access to the descrete step & dir channels would allow you to peal out the 4th axis signals.

WoW! 7500.00 thats ALL? Is there a limit to how many they will sell you?

It's unfortunate when a company gets big enough that the management loses contact with the customer. Companies develop their "personality" from upper management. It's all about numbers. The Sales and marketing dept is driven by management to make sales (duh) with support and answering an end user question being just overhead and time that has a low return (possibility you will buy something). They are smart enough to know they don't sell much to individuals. Their focus will be the bigger customers that make buying decisions on things other than price (or sometimes based on the highest price!).

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com
Totally Modular CNC Electronics

[Dave's_Not_Here]

that board definately looks fourth axis ready,too bad they wont answer your questions
do they sell the same servos and cables?

Servo with cable is $90
PCI Card Chip for my computer $150
AMP for Controller $500 (and as best I can tell based on their call-outs in the PDF, I have the AMP, would you agree?

I will snap a picture of the PCI Card... I think I know where the $150 chip goes...

DNH

[Dave's_Not_Here]

It's difficult to tell from the photo. From a practical standpoint I doubt the manufacturer would put in the expensive 4th axis components (power FET's, interface components, etc and leave out the cheap spade connectors. Just my take as an engineer.

Tom... did you compare my photo to the PDF doc showing the call-outs? As best I can tell, I have the AMP in the upper right corner.

Doesn't the spade connectors and port connector come from the servo and encoder cable(s)?

If you are using MACH3 as your control it does not make any difference if you use servo or stepper on an axis. If you can find and breakout the 4th axis signals on the cable prior to the controller you have you can drive a stepper or servo. You can even use a another power supply to drive that motor. For 23 frame motors a Gecko 251 makes a good match. You can figure the RPM of the rotary table by using the raw RPM of the either type motor. Stepper = ~600RPM Servo = ~ 3000 RPM. Divided that by the table ratio give you table RPM. Then the surface cutting speed is the table RPM times the diameter of the work times PI.

I am seriously considering a turn-key MACH 3 controller (if I can find a good deal from someone that will walk me through the setup) and putting the Techno controller on a shelf in a very dark and dusty corner...

Sounds like you have done this a time or two...


If you are using their control software then your chances of doing a low cost axis add-on are slim. Welcome to the world of proprietary systems!

I am....

If the input to their control is from the PC parallel port a powered breakout card between the PC and their controller that gives you access to the descrete step & dir channels would allow you to peal out the 4th axis signals.

Yes, everything runs through the parallel port cable (beige cable on the left side of my photograph). I will post a picture of my PCI Card in my computer box... maybe you can help me tie everything together regarding my electronics... please?

WoW! 7500.00 thats ALL? Is there a limit to how many they will sell you?

It's unfortunate when a company gets big enough that the management loses contact with the customer. Companies develop their "personality" from upper management. It's all about numbers. The Sales and marketing dept is driven by management to make sales (duh) with support and answering an end user question being just overhead and time that has a low return (possibility you will buy something). They are smart enough to know they don't sell much to individuals. Their focus will be the bigger customers that make buying decisions on things other than price (or sometimes based on the highest price!).

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com
Totally Modular CNC Electronics

Tom,

Good information. I would like to pick you brain some more. I have to head to the shop but will PM you later today.

Thanks,

DNH

[Torchhead]

Email me direct [tom * at * CandCNC *dot * com]. Also you are welcome to join my yahoo support forum and ask questions there. You are about the third person in the last 60 days I have talked to that is dealing with a Techno machine. You won't get much support from them.

I am close to releasing a rotary cutting plug-in for MACH that will make setting up and doing rotary cutting or indexing and lot easier. It's primarily design for running a plasma tube cutter for round or rectangular tubing but the math and physics are the same. That's why I know as much about rotary cutting. For full 4 axis stuff with 3D I know a lot less.

It seems ashamed to have to replace their servo controller. If you can determine if their software sends out pulses (step & dir) from the parallel port then the transition over to a MACH based system would be a lot easier. The other systems I am helping with are stepper based and they just chose to replace the whole control with one of my complete stepper systems (motors and all). The clue will be in the setup and configuration of their software.

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

[Dave's_Not_Here]

Email me direct [tom * at * CandCNC *dot * com]. Also you are welcome to join my yahoo support forum and ask questions there. You are about the third person in the last 60 days I have talked to that is dealing with a Techno machine. You won't get much support from them.

Request Sent

It seems ashamed to have to replace their servo controller. If you can determine if their software sends out pulses (step & dir) from the parallel port then the transition over to a MACH based system would be a lot easier. The other systems I am helping with are stepper based and they just chose to replace the whole control with one of my complete stepper systems (motors and all). The clue will be in the setup and configuration of their software.

So, how do I go about determining this... since they really don't provide anyone much in the way of usable information?

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

Thanks Tom.

[Dave's_Not_Here]

Not to beat a dead horse, but the photo below is my servo controller card, with designations.

Note that the Amplifier Power is there for all 4 Axis.
Note that the Encoder Cables are ported on all but the A-Axis.
Note that the Servo Motor and Break connectors are connected for all but the A-Axis.
Note that the Amplifier Connectors do not have anything on ANY Axis.

So: Other than the cable pair for the A-Axis servo and encoder, which come with the new servo, all for $90, (and after the Techno Tech's looked over the same photograph), just why do I need:

---------"LC Plus, LC"X", and Panelmaster axis servo amplifier - $500.00" (and have to send the controller card back, just to connect some cables?)

The other photo is the Techno PCI 400 controller card in my PC. They say I need a $150 PCI Chip... which I won't dispute... but do have a question noted on the attachment.

Sorry to keep the pot stirred, but I want to clearly understand EXACTLY what I need and why, before I dole out hard earned cash.

If I am wrong or have missed something, please educate me. Their web site says "all servo machines are 4th axis ready" and that's what it looks like to me, but I am not an electronics expert.

[Dave's_Not_Here]

may i ask how much torgue you want your 4 axis to have?and what you will cut?wood?plastic?aluminum?maybe a custom built one is the way to go,i build custom table top cnc and fourth axis,gladly give you a quote if i find out all the parameters

I can't answer your torque question, but the 4th axis will turn mostly wood for furniture applications, as well as indexing some flat stock so I can mill all four sides as needed. The gantry height will dictate material size. I have 5.5" currently but want to add risers to gain an additional 6 inches or so.

I will want to do some light aluminum and brass milling but not very often.

Do you have links to any of your work? I would be willing to at least toke a look. If you do, send me a PM directing me to where to look.

DNH